In some of the concluding posts on the Matt 25:40 and "honeybee" threads,
Marcia, TomM, and StephenM all were kind enough to suggest that no one is gonna get anywhere by trying to construct a foundation for his or belief in ChristJesus if this idea doesn't include the fundamental central notion of His sacrifice for human sin.

I would like to continue to discuss this question on this thread, but if anyone thinks it is outside the legitimate domain of the AB. please post to say "no, don't go there."

If there are are no "don't go there" posts after a few days, I will pick up the thread then.

Thank you again for the privilege of being here with y'all.

Note to Marcia - did you mean you were gonna stop chattin with me entirely, or just stop chattin about what will be the outcome of the paths in my journey that you think are headed in the wrong direction ?

Dave

Hi Dave H,

Re. chatting, I was referring to this:

WYSIWYG !!

And I agree with Mark C, as usual.

God bless,
Marcia

I would like to thank Mark C, summer007, and Marcia for their kind replies.

I was waiting a while to post to this thread, not knowing quite how to put what I wanted to say.

Then today, I happened to be catching up with my reading of last Sunday's paper (The Tennessean here in Nashville) when I found a review by a fellow named Ray Waddle of a new book called The Gospel of St. Thomas.  I am sure that many of you have heard of this book, which is considered by some to by a Gnostic text (it was found in Egypt after WW II.)  I am also pretty sure that most posters here would dismiss the book as the devil's work.

I could not find a web-copy of Waddle's review anywhere, so have emailed him to see if he would send me a URL or a copy of the book.  I would really like to post the whole review to this thread.

But here's a scrap of it:

"Here finally, it seens, is an unregulated Jesus - uncensored, unfiltered, and untarnished by centuries of official gatekeepers.  As recorded in "The Gospel of St. Thomas", we get a counter-cultural Jesus who performs no miracles and dies for no one's sins, but who offers salvation through secret wisdom.  Thomas' gospel says"

"Lift up the stone, and you will find me there.  Split the piece of wood and I am there."

Also, it says:

"
His followers said to him, 'When will the kingdon come?'
'It will come not by watching for it.  It will not be said,
Look here it is, or look there it is.  Rather, the father's
kingdon is spread out upon the earth, and people do
not see it
"

So as John Lennon's song goes:

"You may say that I'm a dreamer,
But I'm not the only one."

(Don't mean to be egotistical here; it's just that many of the themes in this "Gnostic" questionable gospel seem to match some tentative conclusions which I have recently reached.

So - if anyone knows this so-called Gospel and has opinions on it, I believe a discussion of it would be a good way to continue this thread.

Also, of course, there is the question of why one should believe this so-called Gospel as being representative in any way of the teachings of the Son of God.

Best regards. as always
Dave

Marcia -

I don't think it's the same Thomas, but I'm gonna buy the book that Waddle reviewed and read it.  That way, I'll know more whereof I speak.

Speaking of India, have you ever heard of or read a book entitled

"The Brook Kerith?"

Best regards
Dave

Marcia - here (below) are two different mini-reviews dealing with the subject-matter of the book The Brook Kerith by George Moore.  I was not sure for a few hours whether I should post this material, since some at the AB might find it too "in your face".  But I decided I SHOULD because the book has a magnificent fictional confrontation between Paul and Jesus, a confrontation which is very relevan to the discussion we are involved in.

Note that the author of the second review is I.A. Richards.

Best regards as always
David

Mini-review I:

George Moore's stunningly ambitious tale of what might have happened had Christ survived the wounds of his crucifixion and subsequently attempted to lead a solitary, ordinary life. The central figure in Moore's tome is Joseph of Arimethea, the wealthy aristocrat who enlists in the discipleship of Christ and is accessible to the ear of Pontius Pilate. It is Arimethea who uses his influence to have Christ removed from the cross and who then takes it upon himself to steal him away to his estate when he discovers that Jesus is still alive.

Many readers of a strong faith may find much of this novel offensive. There are two Christs portrayed here; and neither fit the traditional bill. The first is a contemptuous revolutionary, bent on the destruction of social order to make way for a new kingdom of justice. The second is a reposeful, passive figure who retreats to the solitude of nature and comes to dismisses his former self as an impetuous, caustic purveyor of wrath.

I found Moore's portrayal of the duality of Jesus to be a refreshingly original portrait of the times and circumstances of Christ, as well as a daring hypothesis of the origin of myth. The climactic confrontation between Paul, the vanguard of the new Christ, and Jesus, the shepherd, is a turn of creative genius, and does more to confront the notions of traditional Christianity than any scholarly tome before or since.


Mini-review II:

Volume 15, Number 10 · December 3, 1970 Review Jesus' Other Life
By I. A. Richards The Brook Kerith, A Syrian Story by George Moore Liveright, 391  

The prime technical problem was to present Jesus through an eye which the reader could accept as adequately prepared, through a personality with which we could sympathize deeply enough to permit him to be our representative through whom we might provisionally perceive and respond, be captured, be bewildered, be despair-struck, agonized, overcome…ourselves. And yet the observer had to be a mind rich, wayward, and independent enough to protect our detachment fully.

This medium is Joseph of Arimathea, the member of the Sanhedrin who, according to the Gospels, gave the body of Jesus burial. We first meet him falling asleep on his grandmother's knee while she is telling him of the prophet Samuel. Joseph's grandmother, his father Dan, his teacher Azariah, Galilee, Jerusalem, the gorges through to Jericho, the Essene community, Joseph's stay there, its Head, Hazael, its philosopher, Matthias, the prophets in the deserts about Jordan, Joseph's tradings, journeyings, self-searchings, all his growth through the years before his first true encounter with Jesus—all this in a thousand ways prepares us to feel with Joseph when, as a dutiful son, he cannot become a disciple. At the same time, the incongruities of the disputing apostles exasperate his heartbroken estrangement from the Jesus he watches distantly through the entry into Jerusalem and meets again only in the night when, having begged Jesus's body from Pilate and brought it from the cross to his own new tomb, he detects that the victim is still alive.

When Jesus has sufficiently recovered physically, Joseph accompanies him back to the Essene cenoby where, until his baptism by John, he had served as their shepherd. He leaves him there promising to return, but is killed by zealots in Jerusalem. And with that the second great technical problem arises: the transition as seekers from Joseph to Jesus. It is handled by the hill journey Jesus makes in search of the ram needed to restore the brethren's degenerate flock: an absorbing narrative this, leading into the long years of shepherding, Jesus's memories of old Joshbekasher "who had taught him all he knew of sheep," and in the end the handing over of the flock to young Jacob—who, too, has had a long atonement to make for a fault.

All these years the brethren in the cenoby have known little or nothing of what happened between the baptism by John and Jesus's return. And it is the evening of his handing over that Jesus is moved to tell Hazael, their aged Head, of the unparalleled sin he committed in the near two years of his life unknown to them. But before he can do so a wanderer is seen far off on the opposite side of the gorge making his hazardous way by the cliff path toward them. The brethren fear that he may be a robber and are loth to open the gate. It is Paul fleeing from his pursuers and it is Jesus who admits him, feeds him with ewe's milk, and bathes his feet.

Next day, while Jesus is away arranging a search for Timothy, who has somehow parted from Paul on their journey toward Caesarea, Paul tells the Essenes the story of his life, of his vision on the road to Damascus and of his ordeals and triumphs in preaching Christ crucified and the resurrection. (An astonishing replaying, this, of the Acts.) The Essenes tell him in return what little they know of Jesus of Nazareth—by which Paul is more deeply disturbed than he knows. When Jesus comes in with news of Timothy, Saddoc, one of the brethren, relays some of Paul's story to him while Paul gazes in bewilderment. "A great persecutor of Christians. Of Christians? Jesus repeated. And who are they?… Christ is a Greek word, Manahem said, for it seemed to him Saddoc was speaking too much…."

When Paul mentions that his Lord Jesus Christ was betrayed in a garden, "at the words, who was betrayed in a garden, a light seemed to break on Jesus' face" and he asks permission to tell the brethren what had happened in those two unknown years. It so interests them that when Paul suddenly cries, "A madman! A madman! Or possessed of an evil spirit!" and rushes out "nobody rose to detain him; some of the Essenes raised their heads and, a moment after, the interruption was, forgotten." Jesus continues his account. When it is ended, Manahem relates Paul's story in full. Jesus is "overtaken by a great pity for Paul."

Jesus leaves to tell the truth in Jerusalem but on the way he finds Paul lying under a rock with foam on his lips and just coming out of a great swoon. Jesus revives him and guides him through one of the strangest journeys ever told all the long way to Caesarea. When Paul arrives there and meets Timothy again he is about to tell him of the "madman with a strange light in his eyes…but was stopped by some power within himself."

     Hmmmm, I wonder if George Moore was a forebear of Michael Moore?  It might explain the latter's facility at fictionalizing history...

al

Dave---

The one problem with posting on the BB, or reading another's post--and believe me, I have fallen prey to this, is to misunderstand the tone in which something has been said. Unfortuantely, we do not have the ability to hear the inflection of the voice, or the expression on the face of the person speaking. A piece of wit can be confused with seriousness, or sarcasm as an "attack", etc.

I don't need to defend Al--he can defend himself. But I say this in all sincerity that Al is a very dear person. He sincerely cares for the people on the BB--I can attest to this with all of my heart. In private E-mails and posts, all he seeks to do is encourage and uplift others. He is trying to do the work of a shepherd, who is always on guard to protect the flock.

Yes--we as Christians do see ourselves as the "People of God", because the Bible says we are. I do not say proudly that I am a child of God, I say it gratefully. As Christians we have no reason to boast--we are Christians solely by Grace alone. I do not believe that Al is boasting that he is a Christian at all, nor do I believe he is attacking you for what you believe.

His concern(and correct me if I'm wrong Al) is that there are those who come along under the pretense they have an innocent question to pose, yet really have an agenda to throw doubt on what we believe. New Christians can be stumbled by that, and the Bible warns to be on the lookout for those who would seek to do so.

Dave, you are quite correct that there are pompous and hateful people out there who call themselves Christians. But there are many, many truly sincere and caring Christians also. As an example, it would be wrong to say that "all BMW's suck" just because you had a bad experience with a pompous and rude BMW salesman.

Al is a caring and sincere Christian who is concerned about others on the BB. Not being able to hear the tone of his voice, or his facial expressions makes it far more difficult to "hear" what he is truly trying to say. But I'll let him explain himself--i can't presume to speak for him. I am just conveying what I know about Al, and the big heart he has.

Thanks,Joe

P.S. I am in no way suggesting that I feel you should not state your ideas or opinions Dave. I am simply explaining where I think Al may be coming from in his post. If you are sincerely here for discussion that's great. There is always room for opposing viewpoints.

Board Readers,

     I will intersperse my comments in boldface within the text of the quote below.  Please do not read this as a defense of my actions-- it is not.  I offer it only by way of explanation in answer to the quote itself: