paul hohulin
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« on: February 04, 2003, 11:18:24 am » |
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I am reading a book by G.H. Lang about Anthony Norris Groves. One of the big issues the Plymouth Brethern faced as they started out was about the basis for fellowship with other believers. Groves and others influenced the development of the Open Brethren. Darby and others influenced the development of the Exclusive Brethren. In the beginning Darby and Groves agreed in theory about the principle of communion with other believers.
Groves wrote: " I ever understood our principle of communion to be the possession of the common life or common blood of the family of God ( for the life is in the blood)...."
Darby wrote:"But our principle is this, sir: whenever the first great truth of redemption-in a word-whenever Christ has received a person-we would receive him...."
What they agreed on in theory in early writings did not work out the same in their respective fellowships. Life not light was the basis of union according to Groves and many of the Open Brethren.
G.H. Lang wrote about how this impacted the Open Brethern.
"To the end Groves adhered to this. The family life of the children of God, their oneness in Christ, was the ground of communion. It is worthy of remark, that, later, the Exclusive Brethren stressed the phrase 'meeting on the ground of the one body'. The earlier practice was safer. For the purpose of communion it is wiser to build upon the fact of the family relationship than upon the figure of the body."
Though these two groups started out fairly close in theory the end result of their practice in fellowship was vastly different. Groves believed that he could fellowship with any of God's people based on the common life they had in Christ. Darby and the Exclusive Brethern developed a system of fellowship that was based on the level of light that a believer had. That level of light was subject to the Exclusive Brethern's review.
What I have seen of the Open Brethren today shows me that in fact, they have not lost their vision. I have seen their work in the Philippines, the fellowships there are full of life and growing. A friend of mine with the Open Brethren tells me that in Romania since the fall of communism 47 new assemblies have started because of the work of missionaries sent out from England.
This common life we have in Christ is a powerful biblical principle that will unite us with God's people everywhere.
Groves wrote in 1834:
" The power of a union in a common life is so strong, that evils, endless in variety, and often intense in character, are not sufficient to divide, when this life is felt to exist. This, surely, is the nature of the unity of God's love with all the members of the one body: nothing should divide when Christ unites."
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paul hohulin
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2003, 08:41:10 pm » |
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John,
What I was trying to point out was not who would be allowed to preach in an open brethren assembly today, but rather how a scriptural fact such as the common life we have in Christ has impacted the Open Brethern in a way that has kept them from being exclusive. There is a wide range of Open Brethern meetings today: everything from guitars in worship to segregation in worship by gender with no instruments. The ones that I have seen still have fellowship with each other because their fellowship is based on a common life rather than a common vision. I think this is healthy and scriptural. Like Francis Shaeffer wrote, "there is a freedom of form and diversity among the different gatherings of God's people." This was based on his interpretation of I Cor. 12:5 "And there are a varieties of ministries, and the same Lord." It is when we make common light or common vision the basis of fellowship that we run into problems.
I have spoken in Open Brethren assemblies and my fellowship and communion with them was not based on my eschatology,but rather on the common life we have in Christ. In fact, I have an invitation right now to speak in one of the Open Brethren gatherings.
I have enjoyed my interaction with them for years and hope to continue in the future even though I am a member of an independent bible church. I will continue to fellowship with any of my brethren wherever I find them.
God bless,
Paul
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editor
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2003, 08:48:09 pm » |
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Dear Paul and John
The book you are referring to , Anthony Norris Groves, by GH Lang, is one of the books that helped deliver me from Geftakysism.
The phrase in particular goes something like this:
"The Lord asked me, why are you here? (In this local gathering.)?"
It is because You are here Lord, I reason that if You are here, it is safe for me to be here also."
"Do you not see all the problems?"
Yes Lord, but I reasoned that if you are present, You can cleanse and heal, so as long as Your presence remains, I shall not fear to be here either."
Not an exact quote, I loaned out the book. However, I have the principle correct. I think it is some good advice from brother Groves.
Brent
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Arthur
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2003, 09:56:19 pm » |
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Dear Paul and John
The book you are referring to , Anthony Norris Groves, by GH Lang, is one of the books that helped deliver me from Geftakysism.
The phrase in particular goes something like this:
"The Lord asked me, why are you here? (In this local gathering.)?"
It is because You are here Lord, I reason that if You are here, it is safe for me to be here also."
"Do you not see all the problems?"
Yes Lord, but I reasoned that if you are present, You can cleanse and heal, so as long as Your presence remains, I shall not fear to be here either."
Not an exact quote, I loaned out the book. However, I have the principle correct. I think it is some good advice from brother Groves.
Brent
So are you saying this is good or bad, what he said? This is what I beleived when I was in the assembly. But we all know how that turned out. Maybe the Lord wasn't there and it was all in our heads. |
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editor
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2003, 10:15:41 pm » |
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Hi Arthur
I am saying that Groves position is, "good."
Furthermore, I would add that the Assembly was the antithesis of Groves idea, with the added twist that they managed to pretend that they "received all in the name of Christ."
I also think that we may infer, if we allow that Groves idea of the presence of God, or Christian Life, is the basis of fellowship, that if God has left the building, we should do the same.
Now, please, dear guests, I didn't make an accusation here, just some thoughts.
Brent
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Arthur
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2003, 11:19:52 pm » |
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Hi Arthur
I am saying that Groves position is, "good."
Furthermore, I would add that the Assembly was the antithesis of Groves idea, with the added twist that they managed to pretend that they "received all in the name of Christ."
Brent, When you say "the Assembly", do you mean George, some of his followers, all of his followers, or his system? Isn't it possible that some people in the group actually did "receive all in the name of Christ" and were real Christians? Or do you beleive that everyone in the group must have been so deceived or mind controlled (as Brian Steele's essay explains) that we all were not Chrisitans, or at least not living as Christians. I am still trying to figure this out. Was it God moving in my life or was that Assembly mind control? I was holding to the former, but now that we founnd out that George was like a satanist, if not actually being one, from the very beginning, it makes me seriously lean towards the latter, which does not give me hope. Yet, I remember all the times of reading the Bible and praying and believing in God, feeling love in my heart for God, agreeing with the truth that I'm a sinner and that Jesus is the savior. Was that just in my head and an assembly mind trick? What's more troubling is that now, recently, I feel like a dead man. Not motivated to believe in anything, with all my heart at least. Arthur |
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« Last Edit: February 04, 2003, 11:21:54 pm by Arthur »
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editor
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2003, 02:02:21 am » |
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When you say "the Assembly", do you mean George, some of his followers, all of his followers, or his system?
Isn't it possible that some people in the group actually did "receive all in the name of Christ" and were real Christians?
Or do you beleive that everyone in the group must have been so deceived or mind controlled (as Brian Steele's essay explains) that we all were not Chrisitans, or at least not living as Christians.
HI Arthur When I say Assembly, I mean the system. Of course there were "real Christians" there. I am one of them, and so are you, and your lovely wife. What I am saying is simply that regardless of what people said, or what some individuals thought in their hearts, the Assemblies did not receive people on the basis of common life in Christ. People were not fully "in fellowship," until they had severed ties with "other" Christians and became devoted to the group. Furthermore, should a person "in fellowship," decide to lessen their devotion to the group, for the purpose of fellowship with "other" Christians, they were proportionally less "received" by the system, regardless of what some poor saint might think. I am a living example of this. Now, as for what is currently happening, here in SLO, right before the LB's all stepped down, as their last act of leadership, the ENCOURAGED the saints to take time off to visit other churches. They were specific in saying that to leave, and fellowship at another gathering was perfectly OK, and would be supported and encouraged. Things are changing, for the better. Now, we shall focus on those who are trying to re-take command of the Evil Empire of Geftakysism. It looks as if we shall have to re-enter the exposure business, if certain people do not repent and come to their senses. The idea of a former full-time worker trying to re-take control of several gatherings, and become the next Lord's Servant, is going to be withstood vigorously, truthfully and with incontrovertable proof. No one, who was a full-time worker, is fit to corral what is left of the ministry and lead them back into bondage, even if it is a kinder sort of bondage. Brent |
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TGarisek
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2003, 02:28:21 am » |
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Brent's last point can not be stated strongly enough. The effort may be subtle but just the same if it happens it is as insidious and errant as a public announcement.
If they don't care what is put on the web and want to minimize the effort and effect, then so be it. They will feel it and should feel it deeply.
But let us be above reproach here. This needs to be said as well - we want no innuendo, just pure truth. It's easy to get caught up in the fervor and say something that isn't 100%. I am trying with all my might and with the help of my dear wife and others to control myself. I hope we all can.
With His help
Tony
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2003, 02:51:50 am » |
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Yes, A.N. Groves was of the "Brethren" ... A Great Man of God! "The properly functioning new testament church" was a mere means, and not an end for Groves. Wherever Groves went he looked for Christ; he always had his eyes open to find Him...And, he found Him even in the most unlikely places. ...He pursued Jesus Christ and Jesus only, not a system built around the Savior. J.N. Darby, a self-interested rival of Groves, was his generations Geftakys. In his later years, Darby never saw a church he didn't want to split or destroy - a bitter heretic....Yet, Darby was a bigger and better man than our monster - Geftakys. A.N. Groves was a huge example in George Mueller's life, who in turn was a huge example in Hudson Taylor's life. Who in turn ignited the 19th century missions movement. One godly man makes a huge difference! Dear Paul and John
The book you are referring to , Anthony Norris Groves, by GH Lang, is one of the books that helped deliver me from Geftakysism.
The phrase in particular goes something like this:
"The Lord asked me, why are you here? (In this local gathering.)?"
It is because You are here Lord, I reason that if You are here, it is safe for me to be here also."
"Do you not see all the problems?"
Yes Lord, but I reasoned that if you are present, You can cleanse and heal, so as long as Your presence remains, I shall not fear to be here either."
Not an exact quote, I loaned out the book. However, I have the principle correct. I think it is some good advice from brother Groves.
Brent
If a Christian is permitted heros...A.N. Groves is my hero! |
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al Hartman
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2003, 03:11:43 am » |
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This topic might be more readily grasped if it were "WHO is the basis of our fellowship?"
Take the basis for our salvation: the Question, "WHAT must I do to be saved?" is answered with a WHO: believe on The Lord Jesus Christ; receive Him.
Similarly, HE is the basis of our fellowship: Where two or three are gathered unto ME, there am I in their midst.
It's just too simple for us. We want to get all cerebral about it, extrapolating from scripture (and the writings of godly men) designs that were never intended by the writers. (Or, perhaps they were intended by the authors, but not for us). If you want to follow the precise pattern, a blueprint, for Christian gathering, you're out of luck. It isn't there. But if you'll settle for what someone SAYS the Bible says, you have no end of interpretations to choose from. Just find the one that you like best, and go with it--
i guarantee you'll find others to accompany you.
Or, you COULD just pray, Lord what do you want me (us) to do? But, you may ask, How will I know what (when, how) He answers? Well, He did give us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. And He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. That wonderful Spirit, sent to each and all of us, bears witness with ours own spirit to show us what is true and what is not.
God has ordained a ministry, and it comes to us in both oral and written form. In fact, today we even receive it via radio, TV, computer and reproductions on tape, disc and diode. But we tend to misuse the ministry we receive. Ministry was never intended to lead us UNQUESTIONINGLY, for in allowing that we allow ministry to take the place of the Lord. Remember, as surely as God uses ministry, Satan is out to abuse the minister and his ministry. Decisions based directly upon preaching or teaching results in the establishment of DOCTRINE. Doctrine is not necessarily evil in itself, but when it decides the basis for fellowship, it displaces the Lord Jesus Christ as the center of our lives and our gathering.
The purpose of ministry is to give us something to discuss with one another and bring before the Lord in supplication: Lord, this is what I (we)have heard, show me (us) the truth and/or the falseness of it. Can we believe that God will answer such a prayer? Jesus said If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. And the one who was beeseeching Him at that moment said, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. Then Jesus acted, gave His petitioner a moment in which to doubt Him, then granted him what he had asked for (see Mark 9:20-27).
Well, what about basing our beliefs upon the Bible ityself? At the risk of bringing down a hailstorm of protest: the BOOK itself is not infallible. Please bear with me:
(1.) every page was written by men. (2.) NONE of the original manuscripts is known to exist. (3.) The oldest known manuscripts have been translated again and again, and no two renderings are exactly alike. (4.) The greatest Bible scholars have never agreed on everything.
(5.) Numerous cults are founded upon the same Bibles we look to for inspiration, including Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism.
Personal acquaintances of mine, men whom i consider to be devout Christians, godly men, have separately taught me FROM THE BIBLE that the Lord's salvation, once accepted, can never be lost, and that a believer can lose his salvation. Entire churches in or near your community gather based on these doctrines.
So, is the Bible the Word of God? Emphatically YES! But ONLY as we actively seek Him to teach it to us. The paper and the ink are not inspired, and are subject to abuse (e.g.,Thomas Jefferson published a bible from which he had simply removed all the passages of which he disapproved). The writers of the Bible were men, writing to and for other men, during times much different than ours. If we ever hope to discern what application those scriptures have to us in the present day, we MUST seek the Lord to direct us, both individually and collectively. We dare not entrust our care and guidance to men who are merely clever (You know, the ones who find the devil speaking on rock tapes played bacward, who tell us that Elvis, rearranged, is evils and Santa is Satan).
What then is the key to knowing the will of God for us?
(a.) Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding, and (b.) Pray without ceasing.
We started out with a quest for the basis of our fellowship:
That which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin. (I John 1:3-7).
What you have just read has been written and submitted prayerfully. But i could be wrong, or it may not be for you at this time. If you take it away without carrying it before the Lord in prayer, you have nothing.
In His Love,
al Hartman
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paul hohulin
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2003, 07:31:04 am » |
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Thanks Al,
That is a better way to phrase the question.
Paul Hohulin
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2003, 09:55:13 am » |
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Well said, John...Next time you say it.
Darby vs. Geftakys
....Vigorous Heretic - Darby wins! Evil, Pure Evil - Geftakys wins by a mile!
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2003, 09:56:01 am » |
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Well said, John...Next time you say it.
Darby vs. Geftakys
....Vigorous Heretic - Darby wins! Evil, Pure Evil - Geftakys wins by a mile!
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