Before telling y'all about my friend who grew up
in a Protestant-Catholic family in Pennsylvania,
I want to talk about the Book of Job.

When I left the Hudson River Valley (NY) in 1990,
I found myself with no friends nor family in
my new hometown of Huntsville AL.  I therefore
decided to read the King James NT/OT front
to back for two reasons:

a) I am a big Shakespeare nut, and the old
English is comforting in and of itself;

b) my professional work had involved using some
constructs of the French mathematician Blaise
Pascal, who experienced a deep religious conversion
that led him to leave scientific/mathematical
pursuits and become a religious thinker (his
main work is called "Pensees" or "Thoughts");
so I wanted to see if I could see in the Bible what
Pascal so obviously saw in it.

So I finally came to the Book of Job, and after
readin it, I also read various scholarly commentaries
which agreed that the "happy ending" was not
part of the original book - that it was added to
make Y-H-W-H appear more "fair" and "kind".

I believe that these scholars are correct and that
the real reason the "happy ending" was added
is that the Book of Job is really a justification
for a deep agnosticism, not belief.

The idea here is that if Y-H-W-H cannot be
questioned without committing the sin of pride,
then a definite belief in his existence cannot
be adopted without also committing the
same sin.  That is, presuming to know something
about the "unknowable" is itself prideful.

This paradox does not mean that one must give up religion - one can act as if one is sure that Y-H-W-H and
his commandments are real.  It's just that one can never say with sureness: "He Exists".

This concept of acting "as if" was deeply
explored by the Greek novelist Nikos Kazantzakis
in all his religious novels.  Kazantzakis is really
worth reading, even though he wrote the
novel on which the supposedly blasphemous
movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" is based.
In particular, if you're near a good library, read
the introduction by Kimon Friar to Kazantzakis'
long poem entitled "The Odyssey: A Modern
Sequel".  (I suggest a library because the
paperback may be out of print, and if not, is
certainly expensive.)

Lenore  -  thanks for taking the time to reply.

Agnosticism is not BELIEF and not DISBELIEF.
(DISBELIEF is atheism.)

The agnostic person is a person who only
claims not to know EITHER way.

 I believe that agnosticism is the only correct
position because any one who says

"I believe for sure"

commits the sin of pride (pride in thinking they
know the answer)

And anyone who says:

"I don't believe, for sure"

is commiting the same sin of pride (again, pride
in thinking they know the answer.

I promise you I will find references to Biblical
scholars who claim the ending to the Book of Job
was added to make people feel better about
Y-H-W-H - that he couldn't possibly be so "mean".

Marcia -

Thank you!

I will look up Schaeffer (don't know his works),
really !

David

Summer007 -

Thanks for the quote.   The meaning of "king"
in it is troublesome.  What do you think?

As far as Shakespeare's religious views go,
I think the jury is still out on what they were.

From Claudius' speech in Hamlet where he
attempts to repent, one can conlcude that
Shakespeare held the standard religious
views of his time.

But Shakespeare also has Gloucester say in King
Lear:

"As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they
kill us for their sport"   (or was it Edmund said this,
I don't recall ...)

This is a pretty bleak and pagan/heathen view
of religion, so who knows what Shakespeare was
feeling when he wrote it?

On the other hand, again, some scholars think
that Lear's daughter Cordelia is a symbol of
Christ in the play, since she is the epitome and
paradigm of forgiveness.

Best regards
David

James 5:11 "Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord  is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."  I have no dought that James, an eyewitness of the Lord. Would have also put the Fairy- Tale spin on Job. In High School Lit. the Teachers tried to classsify Job as just a piece of liturature not to be taken literally. ( there were three  James one the Lords Brother, and one the son of Zebedee. He and John the Sons of Thunder...who saw the Lord in the Transfiguation. And James the son of Alphaeius.) You seem to be like the doughting Thomas... who said "unless I see in his hands the nailprints, and put my finger in the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." And the Lord let him do this and said be not faithless,but believing....As far as the un-believing Literary Giants and so called Scholars are concerned I would'nt buy into their theorys lightly regarding the ending of Job. Some twist the scriptures to their own Destruction...11Peter3:16.  Just a quick comment.  I'm still thinking about this!!!

Philip Yancey offers another interpration of the book of Job, that the introduction and the conclusion are integral to the plot because they show the cosmic drama, and clue the reader in at the beginning to something going on that Job is unaware of.  What is at stake in the cosmic "wager" between God and Satan is whether Job will lose his faith in God in his suffering.  Instead, what happens is that Job begins to see that a Mediator is needed to plead for him, and believes that there will be such a One, even if it happens after Job's death.

Thanks David:

I want to comment on your graphic again.
It has a real neat effect, when you scroll down the posts.

Did you make it yourself.

Religion shaping, religion, even the Christian religion has been vented and revented several times,in books where it talks about Church History, the reason why, is that when a particular religion get dark, and not having any light for Jesus for the people to follow, God has raised up another servant that has the fire and committment to preach the true light of the Gospel.
If you look at Luther, Wesleys, Calvin, etc.
You will see that pattern throughout the church's history.

It is not religion so much that matters, that is only the place where we Christian chose to worship, to fellowship with other believers, to participate in Holy Communion remembering the sacrifices that Jesus did for us on the Cross. To hear the word of God be offered out of the mouth and heart of the shepherd ( pastor, minister, etc) , so that us sheep in the congregation, the ones sitting in the pews, may glean  from those words, fire the coals that Holy Spirit desperately wants us to keep burning. So we can use the seeds that were planted, and grow in the knowledge of the Will of God.
To be a living example for God to our Families, our Friends, and our Neighbourhood.

""Religion is Not Christianity.""

It is people who have a relationship with the Saviour , our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our King, our Husband, our Friend, and our Lord.

The Bible does say we have to give an account to our Belief in Our Saviour.
- and I agree, it should be the answer   SHOULD NOT BE "Just because the Bible says so", or because "that is what I believe"

We have to be prepare to give , from the heart, from the spirit,  and account.
Most importantly we will all have to give an account one day in front of our Heavenly Judge.

I have attended Bible Studies, and gave comments, all I was I doing was repeating what I have heard, or read, etc.
I was asked to give account to what I said.
What the leader of the Study wanted, was some personal insight, rather putting some meat on those beliefs.

Is that what you are trying to do.
IS PUT SOME MEAT ON THE BELIEFS.

Lenore

Sorry! - in the previous post I meant to say that
the "red dots AND the green dots" taken together
are the shadow of a 5-dimensional cube (not jsut
the red dots alone.)