Stephen----

I agree with Brent. If I am the one you are referring to regarding errors, I would like to know so that I can learn from it, and be corrected by it. Perhaps you could be more specific concerning the errors you are referring to.

I do appreciate your post below. In the first paragraph of your post you mention the Word of God and Creation and I was reminded of Hugh Ross, who states that the Bible and Science are fully reconcilable. They are both perfect--and God is fully shown to exist by both Science and the Bible. "The invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse".(Rom 1:20).

Thanks for your posts Stephen.

--Joe

The response to your request is in the Wounded Pilgrims thread where the
three relevant posts were made 2 or 3 days ago.  I was working from memory and falsely described what was said as being all in one post.  I'm sorry that I wasn't able to respond to those posts in a timely manner.

In response to Verne, I must say that the "Christ-like" teaching is very deceptive.  From seeing the adverse effects that it has on churches, it is evident that there is something wrong with it.

There is nothing wrong with the term "burden of the Lord" either, yet God told his people through Jeremiah that he didn't want them using the term because its meaning in the popular vernacular of the time had become distorted.

You used the term and Al immediately associated it with a specific form of teaching which is faulty.  Confusion is caused by using a term that many people identify as meaning something different from what you mean by the term.  That is my point.  All you need to do is alter the wording only a little bit so that it doesn't automatically associate in people's minds with the faulty teaching.

Also it is wrong headed to focus on appearances rather than heart realities.  The term "Christ-like" suggests appearances.  Our focus shouldn't be on what we look like, but rather what God wants to make of us, no matter what that might look like.  What do we care what people think of us, as long as we're abiding in him.  Focus on appearances is what hypocrisy is all about!

 
 O.K... I finally got you Steve. I went back and took a closer look at that above quote Al posted.

Here is my question:

WHAT ON EARTH DOES WHAT AL POSTED HAVE TO DO WITH CHRIST-LIKENESS??

Particularly in the context of people who have suffered abuse at the hands of unfaithful men. If Al is in any way suggesting that this is acceptable and defensible ( which I doubt he is) he has a serious problem.
It seems to be he is simply saying that all who would live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution; and that is certainly true!
I would never have guessed considering the way I post and the things I say that anyone would have mistaken me for a masochist!  
Verne

Hi folks,

Caryl and I just returned from a weekend in San Diego.  We honeymooned there 40 years ago, and we have returned in January for most of the years since then.  We had a good time of rest, fellowship, and recreation.

I have just read through the messages posted in the past few days.  Too many to respond to one by one.  But, a few comments.

1. Steve F. thinks that I am "extreme" in my view on guidance.   Maybe I am...but extreme only has meaning in a frame of reference.  Otherwise it is merely a way of saying, "I don't like what you said."  

I am curious about what "extreme" means in this case.  BTW, what would "moderate" look like?

2. Brent has boldly declared that he believes the Holy Spirit can speak directly to men.  I guess he is "exreme" too.  I say that because I believe exactly the same thing.

I believe that If God so chose, he could send the angels to flap their wings in the clouds and form them into letters to send us messages.  For that matter, he could simply create "alphabet clouds".  

The real question is not "Could God do this?", but rather, DOES God do this? or at least do it so often that I should be looking or listening for it.  In addition, how will I know when I have had this experience?

3. A burden from the Lord?  How do I recognize a burden from the Lord?  Many seem to think that if Jeremiah or someone had a burden from the Lord, what they feel or have felt is the same thing.  How does one tell?

I have been asking these questions for years.  I have asked them of many people, of many different theological inclinations.   No one has ever had any kind of a clear answer for me.  

Many have claimed these experiences.  A few years back a lady confidently told me..."God told me to buy all new furniture."   I asked her how she knew that.  "Oh, I'm sure God told me that."

End of discussion.  I cannot prove that God indeed DID NOT tell her to buy all new furniture.     Nevertheless, I remain unconvinced.

The reason is that when I read in the Bible of God speaking...he seems to have more important things than interior decorating on his mind!

IMHO, on the subject of Divine Guidance there is a whole lot of heat, and very little light.

Thomas Maddux

We did pay close attention to appearances.  However, lacking the needed spiritual discernment, we concluded that all churches have problems, but, since we were superior to other churches, where else could we go.

One of the leaders here in Ottawa often preached from Hebrews 13:7 to convince us from the Scriptures that we ought to obey the leaders, fallible or not, because we should trust God for the leaders.


NONE of us are Verne.  We are all getting on with our lives, but some/all/none have not arrived at the point that you believe we should be at.

Al, Stephen makes a good point re. usage of terminology, don't you think?



Recently I wrote a pastor about a message on gossip I had heard, that triggered in me that reaction to concealment.  If the leaders' behavior is above reproach, then I would not have anything to gossip about eh??


Amen to this!

Marcia

I remember when we first moved to North Carolina some friends fell into trouble and we suggested they come out and live with us and get a new start.  It was nice having them for a few months, but in retrospect, it probably would have been better for them to resolve the problem on their own instead of jumping on the first thing that came along.

When they arrived the first day, I asked the wife how she is doing.  She said hesitantly, “Well, were just seeking the Lord to know His will.”

I thought, isn’t that something you should have done BEFORE you came out?  What I figured out later was that she didn’t have a good feeling about moving to North Carolina – it was a bit premature and they were rebounding from a bad situation – but her excited husband overruled.  She was expressing her unease and feelings of insecurity about the decision using “God talk”.

Because the wife really didn’t want to come out, she would subconsciously do things to make sure things wouldn’t work.  I remember her being at a church fellowship with us and she would situate herself by herself at a table with a mean “don’t talk to me” look on her face.  Afterwards, she would complain about how unfriendly everyone was and say, “Maybe all Southerners are unfriendly and are prejudice against outsiders.”

Over time, they found that it was difficult to get work with any promise in the area and there was much that they didn’t like – low wage job, the prospect of winter, acclimating to a different culture, living with the Sables isn’t as easy as they thought, long distance from major city etc.

Finally, they decided to leave.  The wife came to me and said that she had been reading in the Bible and God has spoken to her.

“God said to Moses, gooooooooo”, she said emphasizing the word “go”.

I didn’t quite get it.  “So?” I asked.

“God said to Moses, gooooooooo”, she emphasized until I figured out that she was saying that God was telling them to go, too.  Whatever the passage might mean to Moses in a literal, historic sense, God was lifting the verse out and applying it to their heart as a way of saying, “move to Oregon.”

Their circumstances can be interpreted in two ways, take your pick:

Interpretation 1:  Our friends hit a difficult situation.  When Dave offered them some help, they jumped on it, not really thinking it through.  When they arrived, they realized that the area does not have a favorable job market.  In rethinking the situation and considering their future, they moved near some friends in Oregon that had a more diverse job market.  As a result, they both got good jobs and were eventually able to buy a house.

Interpretation 2:  The devil brought persecution into their lives.  God used the circumstances to make them “pilgrims and strangers” going forth depending completely upon God.  “Just trust me”, God was saying to them.  After three months of the Lord’s purging, God spoke to them through a passage of Scripture saying, “Go and I will take care of all your needs.”  They stepped out in faith and moved to Oregon where God supplied their every need and blessed them.

I think much of the subjective “God talk” is based on how someone wants to interpret their circumstances.  In a house church, we attend, we worship as the “the Spirit leads” which means there is no formal ending time and we stop when finish the song sheet, get tired and want to eat.  I sometimes am “led” to lead out in a song which could mean that God put a song on my heart or it could mean that someone’s prayer reminded me of a song I happen to like and wanted to sing.  (In the Assembly, I used to struggle over whether my prayer or song was “of God” or not – of course, getting corrected in worship was one of the highest humiliations)

Most subjective “God talk” I found is in reference to things that don’t matter much (who cares if I lead out in a song or not?) or things that people are probably going to do anyway if we reason it out (“God told me to take this lower paying job to be closer to home.”)   If your physician were to tell you that God spoke to him that you should stop taking your blood pressure medicine and turn off your pacemaker, you probably would get a second opinion.

Subjective "God talk" only becomes a problem is when we begin to bind other people - expecially the weak - with it ("No, you can't pursue an advanced degree because God says you are a child of Zion to build his mountain of testimony and thus he needs you at the meetings of the week") or if it makes us completely unable to think though a circumstance objectively ("I know my boss is abusing me, but God says he want me be here.")

It would be silly to say that God never speaks to people.  However, God can also instantly heal and he can cause someone to break out in a foreign language he doesn’t know in order to preach the gospel to another people group.  It just has been my observation that these things have been more the exception than the rule.