Forget & Forgive?

[al Hartman]

 Beliefs exist in our minds, not in the world of physical reality.   Opinions are a type of belief.  They are, by nature, subjective...

More importantly though, the phrase, "in your opinion," or "that is just your opinion" when used to discount someone's position in a discussion simply states what everyone should already know.  

Is that a fact?!!

[Oscar]

Is that a fact?!!

In my opinion, yes.   

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

Someone has stated that inheritance is a matter of authority and there is some truth to that.
I would argue that inheritance is more importantly a matter of power...
Why do I make what might seem a minor distinction?
Simple - it is entirely possible to have authority, yet lack power.

When instructing His disciples as to the manner in which to pray (Mt.6:9-13), Jesus closes His prayer with this declaration to the Father: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.  It is reasonable to consider these words in terms of
the kingdom = the authority to rule (the throne);
the power = the capability to exercise that authority (the scepter);
the glory = the majesty of kingship (the crown).
Of course, unless one is reading the Geneva Bible or the KJV, these points may be missed  , so the same three aspects of God's reigning are emphasized in other passages such as 1 Pet.4 ;11 and Rev.1:6.

al

[vernecarty]

When instructing His disciples as to the manner in which to pray (Mt.6:9-13), Jesus closes His prayer with this declaration to the Father: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.  It is reasonable to consider these words in terms of
the kingdom = the authority to rule (the throne);
the power = the capability to exercise that authority (the scepter);
the glory = the majesty of kingship (the crown).
Of course, unless one is reading the Geneva Bible or the KJV, these points may be missed  , so the same three aspects of God's reigning are emphasized in other passages such as 1 Pet.4 ;11 and Rev.1:6.

al

Yep! The synthesis of the first and second results in the third, only under divine aegis...
Some philosopher said authority without power is pathetic, and power without restraint is terrifying...
Verne

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

You wrote:

Beliefs, however, are not objectivly demonstrable.  You can't take them out and line them up on your desk.  Beliefs exist in our minds, not in the world of physical reality.   Opinions are a type of belief.  They are, by nature, subjective.  Therefore, the phrase "subjective opinion" is, in fact, a tautology.  It is tantamount to saying, "a subjective subjective belief."

I’ll accept your explanation , Tom, and apologize for my lack of understanding your reasoning. 

Now, if I may revert back to the questions I previosly posed, I’d like to hear from you and others who believe that every believer is an overcomer.

In my opinion, the whole thrust of what Jesus was conveying to the churches was tantamount to saying, “Since I have overcome the world, you who are abiding in Me and in My word are now able to overcome temptation and sin in your life.  To him who does overcome, I will grant certain privileges and rewards.   But take heed to the warnings and exhortations I am giving you so that you don’t miss out on these promises.”

So, it is my opinion that not every believer is going to live an overcoming life. But to those of you who believe differently, I’m willing to consider your thoughts and answers to these questions.

(1)When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation? 
(2)If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomer? 
(3) What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer? 
(4) Will he still inherit the kingdom? 
(5) Will he still inherit eternal life?
(6) If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

God bless,

Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

No--I don't believe I am physically crucified with Christ, or at this present moment seated
in the Heavenlies. But, IN GOD'S EYES I am already there with him. I AM seated with Christ
in the Heavenlies because the end and the beginning are the same with the Lord.

"If any man be IN CHRIST he IS a new creation, old things have passed away, behold ALL
THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW"(2 Cor 5:17). There is a tendency on our part to read this
verse and think "OK, we have been given the power to become something new, we just
have to work at it faithfully". But does the verse say we will slowly change into something
new, or that WE ALREADY ARE new? Does the verse teach that we are pigs slowly being
turned into sheep, or that we WERE pigs who have been turned into sheep in an instant?
And once a sheep, can you be anything else? No--you are always a sheep.

It says if any many be in Christ he "IS" a new creation. We may still feel like pigs because of our
failings and sins, but the Bible says we ARE sheep, and completely new creatures. That is how GOD SEES US. And according to the Bible that is WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST. When the Bible says "we HAVE OBTAINED an Inheritance" do I believe it and rejoice? Or do I want to change the meaning into something that will fit my theology? False teachers like to twist obvious meanings of verses to fit their theology, and ruin the "simplicity that is in Christ". False teachers bring people into bondage and fear, and into a "works mentality". But "perfect love casts out all fear".

The thief on the cross had no time to "work out his salvation with fear and trembling", he had no time to "earn a crown", yet Jesus said "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise". In the Assembly "fatihfulness" to us meant many meetings, total days of worship, much evangelism, stewardships, etc. etc.---these things were supposed to be "forming us into the image of Christ", and such "faithfulness" would one day be rewarded. There was an "elitism" attached to all of this, and a feeling we were doing more, and thus were far more faithful than other Christians.

I still say that when one has a mentality that one might "lose out" he will work hard alright, he'll slave on in fear, and fill his days with anything that will keep him from falling. His "faithfulness" will all be based on fear of failure, and of doors being shut.  But when one knows he is "saved to the uttermost", "Has obtained an inheritance", is "more than a conqueror in Christ" he will rejoice in thankfulness, and run full force towards the Lord who loves him so much. "There is no condemnation
to those who are in Christ Jesus". It is the Lord himself pushing us towards "crowns" because he doens't want anyone to come up short. He is not some being standing there with a hammer over your head saying "You'd better be faithful or you might lose out" or "Look out or I might just shut the door on you!!"   NO---he is like the faithful loving father on the sidelines of a race shouting "Go Joe Go!! Remember, I love you and I'm always with you--I will never leave you nor forsake you--keep running Joe!!!"  And you know what? Whether I come in first, or come in last he STILL LOVES ME with all of his heart, just like any loving father who has children and wants the best for them.

I believe this is the God of the Bible.

--Joe

[al Hartman]

A couple of pennies' worth:

You can pretty much count on this:  Anyone who is preoccupied with overcoming, rewards and the like is surely missing the mark (and all that goes with it) by a wide margin...  Mt.10:39, Rom.12:1-2, Col.3:1-2.

al

[Oscar]

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,

You asked me these questions:

(1)When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation? 
(2)If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomer? 
(3) What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer? 
(4) Will he still inherit the kingdom? 
(5) Will he still inherit eternal life?
(6) If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

In light of the first question about becoming an overcomer, my answer would be that the Bible never calls anyone an overcomer.  The word simply does not occur in scripture.  More importantly, I have never found the concept either.  It doesn’t show up in the places that one would expect to find it. 

An example would be Matthew 25:31-46.  The sheep are called “the righteous”, (V.37), they inherit the kingdom, (V34), and obtain eternal life, (V46).  The goats, (those on the left), are cursed, expelled from God’s presence, sent to eternal fire with the Devil and his angels, (V41). 

But where are the Shoats and Geep?  Those who are righteous like the sheep, but behaved like the goats?  No mention.  In addition, where is the place where they will spend eternity?  No mention.  Instead, the issues are being in God’s presence or expulsion from it, inheritance of the kingdom or entry into the lake of fire, possession of eternal life or receiving eternal punishment.  Two classes of people, not three.

In addition, this observation is in harmony with the Biblical doctrine of justification.  Justification is a legal declaration of righteousness by God himself.  We do not obtain justification by works, we obtain it by faith.  There are two aspects to justification.  Forgiveness of sin and imputation of Christ’s righteousness.

In the OT David said,
“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him, (Rom. 4:7-8)”.

This is in keeping with the New Covenant that God has made, and that includes us, (Eph. 3:2-6).  A key provision of this covenant is that, “I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more,” (Heb. 8:12).  In his high priestly ministry in heaven, Christ himself is the “mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance”, (Heb. 8:15).  Right now, Jesus himself is covering your sins with his blood.

This makes us forgiven.  As blessed as that is, there is more.  God sees us as righteous!  That is pure grace.  The scriptures give abundant testimony to this.

1. Rom. 4:3 “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

2. Rom. 4:6 “David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.”

3. Isa 61:10 “I delight greatly in the Lord; my soul rejoices in my God.  For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness.” 

4. Rom. 5:19 “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man, the many will be made righteous.” 

5. Phil 3:9 “…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.”

And so on, and on, and on…there are many other scriptures that express this truth.  And remember, Chuck, the sheep that inherit the kingdom…are the righteous!  Remember, they have no consciousness of having served Christ…they just lived like true disciples.   

Now here is a question.  Did they do so perfectly?  Did they ever sin?  You bet!  “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, (I John 1:8.  Now one could say, “but you have to confess your sins to be forgiven…” Yes and no.  In matters pertaining to justification, such as eternal life, inheriting the kingdom, and reigning with Christ, no.  The reason for this is that God has already imputed to us the righteousness of Christ himself!  In his ministry as the High Priest mediator of the New Covenant he continually cleanses us from sin, (Eph. 5:25-30, keeping us undefiled.  How else could Paul have promised the most problem ridden believers in the New Testament that, “He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (I Cor. 1:8. 

In matters pertaining to fellowship with God, and with others, yes.  We cannot come to God in prayer with a load of sin and rebellion on our consciences.  To the question, “but what if someone refuses to repent?”, I would reply, a repentant heart is a characteristic of being a true Christian.

So, Chuck, I agree that there are rewards for faithful service according to talents received.  But the rewards do not include forgiveness, justification unto righteousness, inheriting, or entering into eternal life.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer.

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

I asked the following questions:

(1) When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation? 
(2) If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomerr? 
(3) What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer? 
(4) Will he still inherit the kingdom? 
(5) Will he still inherit eternal life?
(6) If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

You responded:

In light of the first question about becoming an overcomer, my answer would be that the Bible never calls anyone an overcomer.  The word simply does not occur in scripture.  More importantly, I have never found the concept either.  It doesn’t show up in the places that one would expect to find it. 

And in case you’ve forgotten, Tom, you were the first to describe it as  “Overcoming" teaching in your post #42. on October 31st.  And, please, don't bring up George Geftakys' teaching.  If you want to debate George and his teaching, have at it, but I'm really not interested.  So, O.K., let me rephrase my questions:

In reference to Revelation 2:1 to  3:22:

(1) When does a believer become one "who overcomes?”  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation? 
(2) If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still  one "who overcomes?" 
(3) What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer one "who overcomes?” 
(4) Will he still inherit the kingdom?  (5) Will he still inherit eternal life?
(6) If he does not become one "who overcomes” at the moment he believes, then when?

God bless,

Chuck

[vernecarty]

It is certainly helpful to look at the way the Spirit of God has employed the word that the Lord Jesus uses here in other portions of Scripture. I would again like caution against failiure to recognise the critical matter of relationship in any discussion of even an ability to respond to the commands of God.
The danger with the way the subject of "overcoming" is often presented is that it tends to lead one to imagine that this is a privilege reserved for a select few.
Is it?
The apostle John contends in 1 John 5:4

 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

I am  not prepared to argue that the "overcoming" that Christ is referring to is any different from the one John references.
Christ is not preaching another gospel in these revelation exhortations, or somehow invoking some new standard. We overcome the same way we are saved - by faith!
Verne

[Oscar]

Chuck,

Regarding my post #42, here it is:
*****************************************************************************************************************
The "Overcomer Teaching" that you have espoused above is, of course, familiar to all of us who have a PB or assembly background.  IMHO, it suffers from several probems.  So I will make a few comments.

I rejected this teaching many years ago.  Here, briefly stated, are a few of the reasons I did so:

1. These men hold a very low view of the forensic theory of justification.  (I know they would deny this, but that is what I see in their position.)  The forensic view explains justification in legal terms.  We are guilty of sin.  A holy God must punish sin.  Christ bore the full punishment for our sins on the cross.  The forgiveness purchased by Christ is applied to us when we believe, resulting in our "justification by faith alone."

Some of these teachers attempt to maintain both salvation by faith alone and also the conditional inheritance teaching by saying, "All your sins before salvation are forgiven when you are justified, but then you must confess all your sins and serve God zealously in order to receive a full reward."  In other words, Jesus made the down payment but you must make all the other payments. 

This leads them to believe that when a Christian dies and goes to be with the Lord, his sins are both forgiven and not forgiven.     Some of them throw the Undercomer into the lake of fire for a thousand years as a sort of "Protestant purgatory".  All of them exclude the Undercomer from the kingdom, consigned to "outer darkness" forever.   Then some leave the Undercomer on the earth while the Overcomers enjoy heaven with Christ.  For them, the blessed promise of "absent from the body, present with the Lord," is nothing but a warning of being judged with a definite possibility of being booted out!!

It reminds me of an insurance policy that "gives it to you in the large print, and takes it away from you in the fine print."

This is very similar to Roman Catholic teaching on confession.  Martin Luther used to drive his confessors nuts with his constant anxiety attempting to confess every possible sin so that he would escape the Catholic purgatory.  Same idea.

The great Reformation proclamation of Sola Fide  was his response to this.

2. These men also hold a very low view of the High Priestly Ministry of Jesus.  The purpose of his ministry in heaven is to "bring many sons to glory", which btw, is part of salvation, (Hebrews 2:10-11).  This is what Paul was speaking of when he wrote:

"For those God forknew he also predestined to by conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; those he called he also justifed; those he justified he also glorified," (Romans 8:29-30).

To deny that this is the destiny of all the saved is to deny the efficacy of Christ's ministry in heaven!  It is tantamount to saying that he regularly fails in what he attempts to do.  Or worse, you must actually enable him to complete his minstry by your own success at obeying the rules, ie, by your own works. 

However, the apostle Paul told us that, "He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him
graciously give us all things, (Romans 8:32).  Sorry, Overcomer friends, it is all in Christ, and it is all by grace.

3. Now this does raise some questiions about all those warnings....and I will address that in my next post, God willing.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer
 
 ***************************************************************************************************************

If you will notice, I called it the "Overcomer teaching", not the "Overcoming teaching".  Since the teaching is about a purported class of "Overcomers" that seems, to me, to be an appropriate name to call it.

Regarding George Geftaky's ideas on the matter, when I checked this out many years ago he was teaching exactly what G.H. Lang taught.  He preached through Lang's books, claiming it came from his own study.  It has been many years since I read those, so I wouldn't try to repeat it today.  GG did teach that Christians can end up in the lake of fire.  The reasoning that kicks believers out of the kingdom seems to lead there, although I know that Dillow denies it.

As to the rephrased questions, I would just say that if the doctrine of justification by faith alone that was taught by the reformers and is held by every protestant body I ever heard of is true....your questions are not really necessary.  However, here is a comment about #2.

When a Christian sins it is covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  When God looks at the sinning Christian, he sees him as in Christ.  Christ's righteousness has been imputed to the saved individual, and God sees him as righteous.

Legalism always tries to "dumb sin down" to a list of prohibited observable actions.  Then the legalist can just keep the rules on his list and imagine he is ok, (and usually that everyone else is not ok).  But this is a delusion.  God's standard is his holiness.  So unless you know someone who walks in the holiness of God 24/7/365 for his entire Christian life, the "overcomer" kingdom will be empty of inhabitants.  The idea that we can recover our standing by confession of sin doesn't work.  One little shred of forgetfulness.....and bye bye kingdom.

The appears to me to be exactly the same reasoning the Catholics use about being in a "state of grace" or a "state of sin".

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[vernecarty]

Chuck,

 One little shred of forgetfulness.....and bye bye kingdom.

The appears to me to be exactly the same reasoning the Catholics use about being in a "state of grace" or a "state of sin".

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

The thing that I find curious about the overcomer teaching is whether or not those who espouse it consider themselves to be in that category. James teaching on faith and works notwithstanding, how does one know when his faith had indeed produced work that proves the former exists?
Am I the only one that has concluded that the case James is making is simply that true faith cannot exist apart from its evidence?
If that is the case, why should anyone we consider a child of God, in whom faith by definition is presumptive, be consiered the target of the admonition that James is delivering?
I would be ashamed to consider myself, or to be considered by anyone else an overcomer.
My walk with the dear Lord Jesus Christ over all these years has shown me with increasing clarity what a wrteched sinner I am.
Overcomer??!!
My plea is that God would be merciful to me a sinner....
Verne

[al Hartman]

Am I the only one that has concluded that the case James is making is simply that true faith cannot exist apart from its evidence?

You are not alone, Brother.  John, throughout his first epistle, states in different words much the same case as does James.  Unless I am misreading him, Tom's query about the "Stoats and Geep" was tongue-in-cheek testimony to his belief that all who abide in the Vine bear fruit, borne out by much of his other postings. (Tom?)

If that is the case, why should anyone we consider a child of God, in whom faith by definition is presumptive, be consiered the target of the admonition that James is delivering?

James' (and John's) cautioning seems twofold:  First that those among  the apparent church who trust in their self-righteous pretense of piety (talking the talk, but not walking the walk) wake up and repent, calling upon the Lord's mercy and grace to grant them true conversion.  Second, that those who in any way look up to members of the former class would also awaken to a consciousness that the fruit must bear witness of the Seed (Christ will be seen in the behavior of the redeemed).

Needless to say, my awareness of James' and John's teachings on this, as well as our Lord's own words in the gospels, was sadly lacking in my former years.

Overcomer??!!
My plea is that God would be merciful to me a sinner....
Verne

Amen.  Concurrently, we are entitled to genuinely rejoice that He has been merciful.  Such true rejoicing (unlike the assy version) can only flourish within our deep humility and grateful thanksgiving.

al

[vernecarty]

I understand the motivation of those who insist that the Christian should bear fruit.
The real issue is how and why this happens, or does not.
This discussion is I believe  of great importance because it is dealing with what I think were the fatal flaws of the kind of indoctrination we were exposed to under Geftakys.
You will inevitably desscend into the most destructive kind of legalism whenever you try to focus the attention of the child of God on the doing as oppposed to the being.
Look at all of Paul's epistles and the way in which he consistently makes his case.

It is a relentless tour de force of if(since), then propositions!

God's people are desperately in need of sound and edifying instruction in the ways of growing, a process which will in every case result in good works. We must be extremely careful not to put the cart before the horse. This discussion is really encouraging for we are dealing here with the very fundamentals of the faith. Carry on!
Verne

[Chuck Miller]

Brethren,

I inasmuch as I don’t like to selectively choose to answer which rebuttal, or which part of a rebuttal, I will answer, I am finding it somewhat overwhelming to try to respond in totality to every post that is either directly or indirectly aimed at refuting what I believe (or what some seem to assume I believe), so I thought it might be more profitable for me to take time to consider your responses and determine if I am in error in some of my beliefs, and most importantly, to reflect upon my  own walk with the Lord. 

For in all of this, it has occurred to me that, somewhere there is a believer who is sitting in a cold dark prison, starved and beaten, suffering and tormented, forgotten by many of his or her brothers and sisters and yet rejoicing in the inner knowledge that the Lord Jesus is with Him and will help to sustain him in his ordeal.  He may not  know much about the theological arguments for justification, sanctification, glorification, predestination, overcomers, methods of interpretation, etc., etc. What He does know to the very depth of his soul and spirit is that Jesus died so that he might have his sins forgiven and rose again so that he might have eternal life, and that some day he will be with Him in heaven.  Nothing that his tormentors do to him deters him from testifying to the love of Christ to others, and nothing compares to the joy he experiences when he guides another hopeless sinner to receive Jesus as his Savior.

Inadvertently he accomplishes the ideologues of the Calvinist, the Arminian, and the Overcomer in that he perseveres to the end; he does nothing to lose his salvation; and he overcomes in the world - all the while being oblivious to the fact that he is doing so.  Pray for him, but don’t pity him, for his reward in heaven is great (Matt 5:12) and his is the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:10).  Pray not for his release or relief from his persecution, but pray that he will continue to accept whatever is God’s will for his life,  and that he would remain a good witness for Christ in his ordeal. 

I have also come to realize that I fall far short of living an overcoming life and I’m asking the Lord to teach me how to ”build my house upon the rock” (Matt 24).  That means hearing His words and acting upon them, and what better way to begin than to concentrate on His teaching from His sermon on the mount.  Perhaps, by His grace, I may again do the things I did at first and re-kindle that first love.  Please pray for me.

So, I’ll  refrain from further debate about “overcoming” and try to concentrate on being a doer of the word instead of just a hearer. I will share thoughts from time to time and maybe pose a question or two; not to back anyone into a corner on what they believe, but to reap the benefit of others knowledge, remembering what Paul said,  “The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God” (Romans 14:22).

God bless,

Chuck Miller