Forget & Forgive?

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

That's fine.  Whatever suits you.

Chuck.

[M2]

Hi Chuck,

I read your four post post and yours is one of the best explanation I've read on the topic of repentance forgiveness and reconciliation.  I also agree with pursuing peace as much as one is able to do so.  I will not however be calling nor writing George or any of his faithful leaders/workers to confess any bitterness of heart on my part.

God bless,
Marcia

[bystander]

Chuck,

It seems to me that requesting that someone "rebut in toto" a four page post is exposing oneself to disappointment, at the very least.  I would suggest a more workeable method: State your argument simply and clearly, then support it with what you believe is the strongest evidence.

Then if anyone replies and offers counter arguments, use your other evidences to reply to the specific information offered in rebuttal.

Othewise, it might take eight pages to reply to your four pages, then you must type twelve pages........

No one wants to get that involved.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Few words and simple thoughts cannot always express important ideas.  If we limit ourselves to short and simple, at all times...we become short and simple.  In that case, strength of personality and intensity of arguments win over sound reason and logic.

I enjoyed the long post, Chuck, only because it was logical, carefully worded, and important. 

bystander

[al Hartman]

Without reposting Tom's remarks, I will just say that Chuck's four-page post seems to me quite clear and to-the-point, and very helpful.

If a suggestion is needed re: rebuttal, I would suggest Chuck ask for clear and direct response to whatever part of his post may be found objectionable (not every poster may be capable of a four-page post, and should not be penalized for questioning only one point).  Better to hear from such ones than to intimidate them into silence.

For any who would pursue an opposing view to Chuck's, I suggest (as has Chuck) prayer, the referencing of scripture, and conciseness.

The key to all such considerations is not whether they delight us, but whether we are willing to see, learn and do the Lord's will concerning them.

al

[al Hartman]

Quote from: BAT on October 21, 2005, 11:12:54 pm
My fantasy meeting:

GG.  "Are you with me friends?"

"Are you kidding?  How can we be with you?  You aren't making sense, you're taking the verses out of context, you're reading notes that are poorly written, and MAN WASN'T CREATED ON THE SEVENTH DAY!!  How in the He!! can anyone be with you?  Everyone here knows in their hearts that you're full of crap, and what's wrong with these spineless weasels that they let you get off saying man was created on the seventh day?  Why are you an adulterer?  Why do you let your son beat his wife?  Why do you handle all the money?

Oh, if your goons touch me, I'm going to fight.  In fact, I'm gonna kick your adulterous @ss right now!"

Now that's a fantasy!

Are you with me dear friends?

Quote from: VerneCarty on Today at 02:26:51 AM
This is probably the most insightful thing you have ever posted on this topic.
Let us get down to brass tacks shall we?
If the Spirit of God were present (subjunctive case deliberate) in that gathering, since George did not stand up and do exactly what you outlined, someone else truly speaking for God would have.
If you understand this, then you understand the most important thing you should have learned about Geftakys and the assemblies.
No amount of alabis, excuses, and psychologising will ever change the reality of this fact.
It has ever been the way of God with men...

You do know the answer.
The point you are trying to make would have some cogency if it could be argued that there are those formerly in leadership who are still unaware of their own sin.
As a matter of conscience, as a matter of the historical record, of which this website is a part, that case cannot be made.

Which of these men, in view of what God has done, dare presume himself above abject repentance in dust and ashes?

If you have followed the events as you state, this ought to be your conclusion. They do not need further entreaty...
I do agree it is time for some of us to let it go. We have done all we humanly can. I think it is time to delete my own account and will make my final post as soon as I figure out how to save some of the more precious messages I got from some of you folk...it sure has been fun!... ...

Verne

Verne, you are right on the money...

Marcia

Marcia, it would appear, above, that Verne's post was in response to Brent's post, but such is not the case.  Verne's post was in reply to (and quoted separately) both mine and bystander's, all of which appeared on a different thread ("fantasy meetings") from this one.

al

[marden]

Hi Chuck

Your post(all of them) are very clear, to the point and to me are very thought & prayer provoking. For me it prompted me to think about what I want for my young family.

Thank you for points you have made


Al,


You said
"The key to all such considerations is not whether they delight us, but whether we are willing to see, learn and do the Lord's will concerning them."

I think this is very important.

[Chuck Miller]

I appreciate the kind comments.  If there is any commendation to be made it must be directed to the One, the depth of whose infinite wisdom is beyond our finite comprehension.  That is why obedience is more to be sought after than knowledge.

It is a rare brother or sister who will put personal feelings and relationships aside in order to correct, in love, the failings of another.  It’s much easier to avoid the discomfort and possible strain in relationships that can occur by dong so. 

God used just such a brother in the fellowship in Lawrence, Kansas many years ago, to point out my bitterness.  I had shared with him, much of what had transpired in Omaha during our time of fellowship in the Assembly there, and the manner in which we were treated after we left.  He listened very patiently, and it was a genuine relief  for me to be able to relate to him the injustices we had suffered at the hands of George and the Leading Brothers. So, when he admonished me with Hebrews 12:14-15 - “Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.  See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled” -  it was not what I had expected or wanted  But, the Lord, in  His faithfulness, convicted me that the brother was right.  And even though I would much rather have had his sympathy at the time,  I came to see that my bitterness was defiling our children who were still with us, and causing much unrest in my own life.. This brother was like a son to me, but he understood that “Faithful are the wounds of a friend,” and didn’t  renege on his obligation to speak the truth to me in love. This led to our going to Omaha to confess and to ask forgiveness for our bitterness. 

Had someone, prior to this, even suggested that I would be traveling to Omaha to ask their forgiveness for my bitterness, I would no doubt have questioned their sanity, their intelligence, and especially their concern for my feelings.  Nothing could have sounded more repulsive to me. But the leading of the Holy Spirit was so powerful, I couldn’t deny it.  In the process, I found out why John could say,
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).  His commandments are not burdensome because when we decide to obey them, He pours out His grace, and we find it quite easy to carry them out.  And what can surpass the joy of knowing that our obedience is pleasing to Him?

To Marcia, I will only say. Rejoice if you have no bitterness toward George.Geftakys or any of the Leading Brothers, but you are  a rare individual if you haven’t experienced what the rest of us have, or have been able to deal with it to where you have no bitterness or animosity towards them.  I commend you.

Unfortunately, as it turned out, the Leading Brothers misinterpreted our repentance as being a desire on our part to return to fellowship, and they regarded it with suspicion rather than gracious acceptance.  Their speculation about our motives led them to place some ridiculous restrictions upon us  It didn’t seem to matter to them that there was no biblical  precedent for doing so, and to me, the restrictions seemed to be of no consequence since we had no intention of attending  future Assembly functions - so, I never  raised a question about them at that time.  Even more unfortunately, as it turned out, it led to us having to forego attending two of our daughter’s weddings.  But through it all, I experienced a peace that can only emanate from His marvelous grace.

I  don’t  know each of your individual situations, so it may have been presumptuous of me to have coined my suggestion as an imperative, but I pray you will consider what I have said and allow the Lord to lead you in the way that you should go.

In His service,

Chuck

[Mark C.]

Hi Chuck and others!

  This has been an oft discussed topic on the BB and a very difficult one at that.

  It is difficult because the Bible clearly commands us to "forgive" those that sin against us and yet we see Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. just as clearly exhibiting behavior that was angry, sarcastic, and generally not what we would normally consider "forgiving" (some might have suggested that these persons above were "bitter")

  I believe it is important to be clear as to what Jesus was teaching re. forgiveness and to do this we must compare Jesus teaching to "forgive them for they know not what they do" alongside passages like his "scourging of the Temple."   

   Likewise Paul's teaching to "forgive one another," next to his very passionate sarcastic statement for his desire that certain false teachers "demasculate themsevelves!"

   We will be less than God would have us to be if in the face of evil we interpret forgiveness as a passive indifference to such as GG and his creation, the Assembly.

 We cannot see the issue of religious evil (that which hurts God's people) only in terms of my personal emotional state (bitterness), and so to speak, "turn the other cheek," in trying to make ammends with GG, etc.

   How can we make the distinction between "bitter and unforgiving" vs. "defenders of the sheep against evil?"

   I still have considerable anger against GG and those that still defend him, and I believe it is the only appropriate response to such evil.   When I consider those that have been crushed by his false use of authority, beating of the sheep, the heaping of false guilt, shaming,  the damaged and shipwrecked, etc.

   The focus should be on what GG did, his need to admit it, and his open and clear repentance----- not , on individuals hurt by that evil learning how to somehow rid themselves of the bad feelings that they have toward him!

  When those slain "for the testimony to Jesus" cried out for vengeance against their persecutors in Rev. they were not corrected by God to change their desire for judgment against such evil doers.

  Here are the key distinctions, IMHO, between when I am being "bitter" and when I am "standing against evil" (in the context of the Assembly discussion):

1.) I'm bitter if I see it as "they done me wrong" and I'm just responding out of my own personal hurt.

   The Matyrs in Rev. quoted above were not crying out for personal revenge against the individual who killed them, but because they were passionately against the "evil" that produced the agents that killed them. Evil, in the form of teaching and practice, becomes a systemized force (ex.= radical Islam).

  2.) I'm standing against evil if I understand that GG and the Assembly are fundamentally opposed to God's will and are a stumbling block to those seeking to follow God.

   If I don't believe this than the Assembly is just another church that is just as bad (or good) as the next church and we are making much ado about nothing.  However, the facts seem pretty clear that GG is the one needing to get things right in his life with God, not those he wronged.

  3.) My emotional state is a poor gauge for discerning when to forgive and when to take a passionate stand against evil.       

       Much of the discussion surrounding "forgiveness" is an effort to make us feel better.   When we have hurt feelings we try to find a "spiritual solution" to take away that pain.  This "solution" drives us inward to exam our own motives in an attempt to judge whether we are in tune with God.

   Unfortunately, this takes our attention away from what is actually happening in a situation, like evaluating my responses to GG, etc.----- the truth should always be our focus, and this is how God leads us, not by the absence/presence of emotional conflict in my heart. 

                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

[M2]

.....
To Marcia, I will only say. Rejoice if you have no bitterness toward George.Geftakys or any of the Leading Brothers, but you are  a rare individual if you haven’t experienced what the rest of us have, or have been able to deal with it to where you have no bitterness or animosity towards them.  I commend you.

Unfortunately, as it turned out, the Leading Brothers misinterpreted our repentance as being a desire on our part to return to fellowship, and they regarded it with suspicion rather than gracious acceptance.  Their speculation about our motives led them to place some ridiculous restrictions upon us  It didn’t seem to matter to them that there was no biblical  precedent for doing so, and to me, the restrictions seemed to be of no consequence since we had no intention of attending  future Assembly functions - so, I never  raised a question about them at that time.  Even more unfortunately, as it turned out, it led to us having to forego attending two of our daughter’s weddings.  But through it all, I experienced a peace that can only emanate from His marvelous grace.

I  don’t  know each of your individual situations, so it may have been presumptuous of me to have coined my suggestion as an imperative, but I pray you will consider what I have said and allow the Lord to lead you in the way that you should go.

In His service,

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Here's the deal.  Yes I have experienced bitterness and anger at George and his leaders.  However, I have not been malicious or whatever else from a bitter and angry attitude.  Hence my bitterness and and anger has been resolved before the Lord.  Admittedly it does re-surface expecially when I see assembly residue affecting former assembly members.

But, it is also the "unfortunately" that ensues that is better left alone.  Been there tried that and we'll see what the future unfolds.

I really would caution people from contacting George and other faithful assembly ones.  Remember that they are deceivers and smoothe talkers.  I could use a few colourful metaphors here, but I think you get the picture.

When I first left the assembly every waking thought was about assembly matters.  Now I rarely think about them, except if I run into them at the corner store or a school rugby game or something.  There is life after the assembly.  PTL.

Marcia

Verne,

It is not at all clear to me what you are saying.  Since God is omnipresent, how can one say the Holy Spirit was not present? 

Now theologians do distinguish what they call a "localized presence" of God, such as where Jacob said, "The Lord is in this place and I knew it not."  The Holy of Holies in the temple would be another place like this.  But then, each individual believer, is a temple of God, and the Holy Spirit is present in each of us.

So, exactly what are you saying?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Tom, I am amazed at this comment from you.  It is mind boggling that you have been in assembly meetings and various Christian gatherings and have heard language like this and now you claim that it is not at all clear to you what Verne is saying ??

Marcia


Sorry Al, I do not have the gift to explain things to you.  I will say that you have a great sense of humour.

Marcia

[Chuck Miller]

To Mark and Marcia,

I will be spending time today considering your posts and will respond as time permits, hopefully by Tuesday.

God bless,

Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Marcia, 

I've considered your response and want to share with you what the Lord put on my heart,

YOU WROTE:  Hi Chuck,  Here's the deal.  Yes I have experienced bitterness and anger at George and his leaders.  However, I have not been malicious or whatever else from a bitter and angry attitude.  Hence my bitterness and anger has been resolved before the Lord.  Admittedly it does re-surface especially when I see assembly residue affecting former assembly members.

MY RESPONSE:  Then let me suggest that it has not been entirely resolved before the Lord, else it would not “resurface.”  It is commendable that you have not been malicious in your bitterness and anger, but notwithstanding whatever measure of confidence the outer appearance may give you - by your own admission -  the root is still there.   

YOU WROTE:  But, it is also the "unfortunately" that ensues that is better left alone.  Been there tried that and we'll see what the future unfolds.
I really would caution people from contacting George and other faithful assembly ones.  Remember that they are deceivers and smoothe talkers.  I could use a few colourful metaphors here, but I think you get the picture.

MY RESPONSE:  You must understand, Marcia, that my admonition was not made in ignorance of the deviousness and cunning of this man and the gullibility of those who still follow him - and we must be ever aware of the source of this deviousness.  But we must never forget that; “greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world” (1 John 4:4)
In my own strength, I could never have gone to Omaha to ask their forgiveness for my bitterness.  It was only in the power of the Holy Spirit that I was able to do so, and to overcome the temptation to air my grievances against the Leading Brothers.  Oh, to be sure, the temptations of the flesh were still there, but the Lord put it upon my heart that He hadn’t sent me there for that purpose.  What ensued after that was all part of His plan that, only in retrospect, am I now able to see and understand the wisdom of His ways. 

We must recognize that bitterness is sin and must be confessed before He will cleanse us of it (1 John 1:9).  Don’t even for a moment dwell upon things like “colorful metaphors”  that only lead to more bitterness.   And don’t presume that you will always understand the wisdom of God that is inherent in His word and His ways.  He may want to use our obedience as much for the conviction of the other party,  rather than strictly for our own benefit.
Remember, He may use us as instruments of His judgment as well as His mercy.  It is not for us to try to determine which it is in any given situation.   

YOU WROTE:  When I first left the assembly every waking thought was about assembly matters.  Now I rarely think about them, except if I run into them at the corner store or a school rugby game or something.  There is life after the assembly.  PTL.

MY RESPONSE:  Those reminders will always be there, Marcia,  and will continue until you resolve this in the manner prescribed by the Lord.  Let that “life after the Assembly” be one of humble submission to His word, and more and more each day may your every waking moment be focused upon Him, having as your ambition, to be pleasing to Him. (2 Corinthians 5:9).  God bless.

In His service,

Chuck

[M2]

Thank you Chuck.  I appreciate your good advise and your devotion for the Lord.

There is no cookie cutter solution to any of these scenarios and an internet BB is definitely not the place for extensive counselling.  While I believe that you did the right thing in going to Omaha when you did, each person's "solution" will differ depending on what has already transpired and where they are at.

I agree with you that it is vital to maintain a focus of pursuing peace as much as one is able to, and keeping one's heart from bitterness.

God bless,
Marcia

P.S. re. the colourful metaphors, I was thinking along the lines of snakes, brood of vipers ....  that kind of thing.
Marcia

[Oscar]

                                                                                 PART I


Chuck,

I realize that this second statement is going to prompt some serious rebuttals from those who have rejected George’s teaching about the Kingdom.  However, I am not speaking in reference to George’s teaching, whatever that may be (I was not in the Assembly long enough to have heard George‘s teaching on the kingdom), but rather, the teachings of men such as Robert Govett, G.H. Lang, Joseph Dillow, E.M. Panton,  and others, and men such  as Hudson Taylor and George Muller who subscribed to the teaching.   

To those who reject the teachings of these men concerning the  Kingdom, I would ask you not to post a rebuttal unless you are prepared to include your explanation of the meanings of John 20:23 and Matthew 18:18.

The "Overcomer Teaching" that you have espoused above is, of course, familiar to all of us who have a PB or assembly background.  IMHO, it suffers from several probems.  So I will make a few comments.

It is true that a number of godly, serious, Christians have held and do hold this teaching.  It is also true that only a tiny minority of Evangelical bible scholars accept the teaching, and as far as I know, they are also godly, serious, Christians.  So, if voting establishes truth, the "Overcomers" lose.  (It doesn't, as I am sure you will agree.) 

When we were in the assembly, the explanantion for this state of affairs was that the scholarly community were all "dead fundamentalists" but GG was receiving "a living word" that was "fresh baked in heaven."  If so,  there must have been some copies of G. H. Lang's books laying around heaven's kitchen because his teaching was almost word for word taken out of Lang's books.  

I rejected this teaching many years ago.  Here, briefly stated, are a few of the reasons I did so:

1. These men hold a very low view of the forensic theory of justification.  (I know they would deny this, but that is what I see in their position.)  The forensic view explains justification in legal terms.  We are guilty of sin.  A holy God must punish sin.  Christ bore the full punishment for our sins on the cross.  The forgiveness purchased by Christ is applied to us when we believe, resulting in our "justification by faith alone."

Some of these teachers attempt to maintain both salvation by faith alone and also the conditional inheritance teaching by saying, "All your sins before salvation are forgiven when you are justified, but then you must confess all your sins and serve God zealously in order to receive a full reward."  In other words, Jesus made the down payment but you must make all the other payments. 

This leads them to believe that when a Christian dies and goes to be with the Lord, his sins are both forgiven and not forgiven.     Some of them throw the Undercomer into the lake of fire for a thousand years as a sort of "Protestant purgatory".  All of them exclude the Undercomer from the kingdom, consigned to "outer darkness" forever.   Then some leave the Undercomer on the earth while the Overcomers enjoy heaven with Christ.  For them, the blessed promise of "absent from the body, present with the Lord," is nothing but a warning of being judged with a definite possibility of being booted out!!

It reminds me of an insurance policy that "gives it to you in the large print, and takes it away from you in the fine print."

This is very similar to Roman Catholic teaching on confession.  Martin Luther used to drive his confessors nuts with his constant anxiety attempting to confess every possible sin so that he would escape the Catholic purgatory.  Same idea.

The great Reformation proclamation of Sola Fide  was his response to this.

2. These men also hold a very low view of the High Priestly Ministry of Jesus.  The purpose of his ministry in heaven is to "bring many sons to glory", which btw, is part of salvation, (Hebrews 2:10-11).  This is what Paul was speaking of when he wrote:

"For those God forknew he also predestined to by conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; those he called he also justifed; those he justified he also glorified," (Romans 8:29-30).

To deny that this is the destiny of all the saved is to deny the efficacy of Christ's ministry in heaven!  It is tantamount to saying that he regularly fails in what he attempts to do.  Or worse, you must actually enable him to complete his minstry by your own success at obeying the rules, ie, by your own works. 

However, the apostle Paul told us that, "He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him
graciously give us all things, (Romans 8:32).  Sorry, Overcomer friends, it is all in Christ, and it is all by grace.

3. Now this does raise some questiions about all those warnings....and I will address that in my next post, God willing.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[mithrandir]

Forget and forgive...what an interesting discussion.  Here's my two cents, with which you may have enough change to buy a tall herbal tea at Starbucks.  First, Christ does most emphatically command us to forgive those who wrong us.  I know that there has been much Calvinistic discussion in the past over whether we really ought to forgive Assembly leaders, et. al., or whether we should check to see if they are of the "elect" first and hate them if they are not.  But John Calvin does not outrank Jesus Christ.  That is why I never participated in Calvinist wrangling over abstruse points.

Having said that, I can say that I have had my struggles with forgiveness.  I have now come to a certain conclusion.  I believe that God is displeased every time I harp on past hurts with the aim of fantasizing about revenge or poetic justice.  However, this does not mean that I am to forget what certain people did or what kind of people they were while they still refuse to repent.  Matthew 18 says that after a first, second and third warning, a so-called brother who has sinned against the Lord's people is to be left alone.  I think there is wisdom in this.  After all, why open yourself up to further manipulation and abuse?  Would you hop the fence of a yard containing a pit bull which recently chased and almost bit you, in order to confess that you've had bitterness in your heart over the incident?  That is why I am not in a hurry to contact former leading brothers or elders from Fullerton.  When they are truly repentant, they will let us all know.  In the meantime, it's not safe for me to "go out" to them!  Perhaps in the future God will teach me to pray for them with His care, but I don't think one can go farther than that until the offending parties show genuine movement toward repentance.

Clarence Thompson

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

I remember reading your dissertation on the kingdom teaching many years ago, and wrote you my rebuttal at the time.  I don't remember receiving a reply.  But, I'll be glad to hear it again and while you're at it, you might include your explanation of John 20:23 and Matthew 18:18.

Chuck