Forget & Forgive?

[vernecarty]

                                                                                 PART I


To deny that this is the destiny of all the saved is to deny the efficacy of Christ's ministry in heaven!  It is tantamount to saying that he regularly fails in what he attempts to do.
Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

You are hereby summarily stripped of your esteemed title of "Virulent Dog".   
Verne

p.s. you now need only apply this same scintillating line of reasoning regarding the believer's security to your thinking about the doctrine of election and you are home free!
As your post aptly illustrates, all the confusion on these matters has do with a lack of understanding of what the Scriptures teach about Divine purpose.

[moonflower2]

However, this does not mean that I am to forget what certain people did or what kind of people they were while they still refuse to repent.  Matthew 18 says that after a first, second and third warning, a so-called brother who has sinned against the Lord's people is to be left alone.  I think there is wisdom in this.  After all, why open yourself up to further manipulation and abuse?  Would you hop the fence of a yard containing a pit bull which recently chased and almost bit you, in order to confess that you've had bitterness in your heart over the incident?  That is why I am not in a hurry to contact former leading brothers or elders from Fullerton.  When they are truly repentant, they will let us all know.  In the meantime, it's not safe for me to "go out" to them!  Perhaps in the future God will teach me to pray for them with His care, but I don't think one can go farther than that until the offending parties show genuine movement toward repentance.

Clarence Thompson

Very good, Clarence. I agree, and this can apply to more life situations than just the fall-out of the collapsed empire of the Greek tycoon.

Moonflower2

[Oscar]

Tom,

I remember reading your dissertation on the kingdom teaching many years ago, and wrote you my rebuttal at the time.  I don't remember receiving a reply.  But, I'll be glad to hear it again and while you're at it, you might include your explanation of John 20:23 and Matthew 18:18.

Chuck

Chuck,

I did not write that "dissertation."   That was written by Dave Sable as a consideration of GG's teaching.  The purpose was not to refute him as much to show that if you follow the logic of his teaching it works out to believers ending up in the lake of fire.  To most Christians, such an idea is so far from anything you could legitimately call salvation as to be refutation enough.

There isn't really a need to write long posts supporting or criticizing these ideas, as it is all available on the web.  All one has to do is Google Hodges, Dillow, Faust or such and there it is.  Faust, btw, openly teaches that the believer ends up in the lake of fire.  Seems ironic to me....a guy named "Faust" sends Christians to the lake of fire.  Nice. 

There are many articles critical of the teaching on the web.  A good one is found at http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesov.htm

Tomorrow I will try to finish my comments on the Overcomer teaching, and will deal with the verses you mentioned.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Chuck Miller]

The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews wrote:

13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;                                                               Hebrews 13:15

And the apostle Paul said:

17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone  Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19  Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.                                  Romans 12:17-19

I have considered the comments of those who have a different opinion concerning their need to deal with the bitterness they hold toward those who have offended them.  Most have disagreed with my suggestion concerning what I believe to be a scriptural means of dealing with our feelings in the aftermath of the Assembly meltdown.

I don’t mind a difference of opinion, and I welcome the comments of those who have  found another means of extracting the root of bitterness that inevitably springs up when we have been subjected to the kind of treatment that we received at the hands of George Geftakys and those in leadership in the Assembly.  However, to date, I’ve heard very little about how to effectively deal with anger and bitterness, but instead, I heard mostly reasons why we are not obligated to ask forgiveness of those against whom we still hold bitterness in our heart.

So, let me strike a bargain with you.  For the sake of more fruitful discussion, I will cease striving to convince you to go to those who have offended you and ask their forgiveness for your bitterness,   In turn, I will ask that you refrain from further commentary on the action I took, and instead, offer an alternative means by which I might have dealt with my bitterness, and also,relate how you have successfully dealt with your own.

I am at peace with the Leading Brothers (all of whom have since repented and asked my forgiveness) and with George Geftakys (who has not). 
For my own part, being “at peace” with George means that I am no longer unduly concerned with him.  I pray for his repentance, as I have for years, but having confessed my bitterness and asked his forgiveness, I have fulfilled my obligation of “so far as it depends on you” (Romans 12:18 ).  I am not accountable for the manner in which he responded.  It is now almost as though he is a non-person to me.  I have no “feelings” except that I abhor his teaching on church government and would not hesitate to warn others about this perverted doctrine.  If this seems to be a strange dichotomy,  I feel content to attack the message and let the Lord continue to deal with the messenger.
Each of you has to determine in your own heart what it means - “See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God;  that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled"  If the Lord doesn’t show you how He would have you appropriate this command in your life, then I certainly won‘t venture to try.  Or if He shows you a different way, why should I contend?  After all, you  have no need to try to convince me.  This is a matter between you and the Lord.

One thing that has concerned me about the Assembly implosion that took place about three years ago is the fact that it came about due to the expose of the immoral conduct of George.  My initial exuberance (yes, after 25 years, I was elated) was soon tempered by the realization that with many, George’s teaching on the role of leadership in the church did not seem to be a major issue.  I guess it has made me ponder how much would have changed in some of the Assemblies had not George’s immoral conduct and David’s abuse of his family been brought to light.  Would they still be functioning in the same manner as before?
From what I can fathom, there are some who are continuing to meet as George’s Assemblies and are still willing to subject themselves to being “lorded over” by those in leadership.  Then there are others who did leave, but did so because of George’s scandalous conduct with no reference to his corrupt doctrine on authority.   

In any event, I don’t claim any exclusivity as to the mind of Christ, so I will try to give objective consideration to your further thoughts on bitterness, and I would be interested in having someone submit an exegesis on the two passages - Hebrews 13:15 and Romans 12:17-19 - so that I can determine if I am mistaken in my understanding of how they are compatible with the other scriptures relating to forgiveness and repentance.

In His service,

Chuck

[Elizabeth H]

Perhaps in the future God will teach me to pray for them with His care, but I don't think one can go farther than that until the offending parties show genuine movement toward repentance.

Clarence Thompson

yes, Clarence, I agree with this point. The issues I have with my parents and others are only fully resolved as the offending parties demonstrate willingness to admit fault. Otherwise, it's pointless. I have the advantage/disadvantage of interfacing with my parents pretty regularly and issues arise during the course of simple, mundane activities which allow for discussion of more significant issues. Sometimes we reach a stalemate, other times there is true progression toward agreement. It's a delicate thing, this tight-rope walk of forgiveness & reconciliation. Sometimes I am wrong, too. Sometimes there are things I have to apologize for. The most important part for me is making sure nothing (not my anger, not the wrongs done to me, etc.) robs me of my peace with God.

[mithrandir]

I have considered the comments of those who have a different opinion concerning their need to deal with the bitterness they hold toward those who have offended them.  Most have disagreed with my suggestion concerning what I believe to be a scriptural means of dealing with our feelings in the aftermath of the Assembly meltdown. 

I don’t mind a difference of opinion, and I welcome the comments of those who have  found another means of extracting the root of bitterness that inevitably springs up when we have been subjected to the kind of treatment that we received at the hands of George Geftakys and those in leadership in the Assembly.  However, to date, I’ve heard very little about how to effectively deal with anger and bitterness, but instead, I heard mostly reasons why we are not obligated to ask forgiveness of those against whom we still hold bitterness in our heart.

So, let me strike a bargain with you.  For the sake of more fruitful discussion, I will cease striving to convince you to go to those who have offended you and ask their forgiveness for your bitterness,   In turn, I will ask that you refrain from further commentary on the action I took, and instead, offer an alternative means by which I might have dealt with my bitterness, and also,relate how you have successfully dealt with your own.

Chuck, if you will allow me just a few parting words on the subject...the only thing I would say is that the Assembly forcefully taught that any anger or bitterness on a victim's part that arose from being mistreated by others made the whole thing the victim's fault.  Matthew 18, however, says that if your brother sins against you, you are to go to him and let him know that he did wrong.  And Matthew 5 says that if you remember that your brother has something against you as you go to worship, you are to get it right.  These verses were turned upside down by the Assembly.

However, I think you ask a very good question about how to deal with the normal human reaction to being wronged by others.  I think that this is a question each of us must face, and I commend you for asking it.  In my opinion, facing questions like this is part of the process of recovering from a group like the Assembly.  BTW, I appreciated your posts on Christianity and politics in the USA.

And along the line of recovery, I think there are many other questions which should be confronted on this board.  For while we are commanded to forgive the leaders and other perpetrators of abuse in the Assembly, the fact is that the Assembly left quite a mess.  It's like a tornado a mile wide, that left a few houses undamaged, left many others moderately to heavily damaged, and all but wiped many others.  The question now is how to clean up the mess.  In practical terms, I think that means considering questions on such subjects as:

Financial, professional and career development in the aftermath of the Assembly.  Going to meetings and doing stewardships and consequences all the time doesn't exactly prepare you to be a brain surgeon or airline pilot!  Do you feel like you're now playing catch-up?  Are you nervous about retirement?  Are you wondering how now to get out of a tight spot caused by your Assembly involvement?

How to relate to family and children lost because of the Assembly.  How do you apologize?  How do you re-establish a relationship?  How do you deal with what these children or family members think of you?  This is good for ex-Assembly singles also, because we were all taught to be more or less authoritarian micromanagers.  And some, like me, were actually "Children's ministry" teachers! Ouch!!

For older singles whose love life was jacked around by Assembly micromanaging leaders, and who are still single as a result, where do we go from here? Do we just resign ourselves to Sgt. Pepper's band?  What have some of us done about this?  Did it work?  Do you regret how things turned out?  Do you now just claim the gift of celibacy?

Are there those who are still struggling to find a church they can swallow?  I know that churches aren't perfect - yet how does one find a church one can live with?

I can think of lots of questions beside these.  And people could share their own testimonials of how they confronted each of these questions.  (Please, let's not have anyone saying "I have the answers to your questions, and there's no other way but mine.")  There's just one thing I wish.  If we're going to have a discussion or discussions about the many and varied aspects of cult recovery, I only ask that those who still want to defend the Assembly or spiritualize it or try to tell us how good it was for us all not try to hijack these discussions.  Perhaps for those people we could have a thread entitled "Why the Assembly was such a wonderful thing."  Then those who want to have a discussion with each other re. the good parts of the Assembly could have a place all to themselves.

Clarence Thompson

[al Hartman]

Please, let's not have anyone saying "I have the answers to your questions, and there's no other way but mine."

Say, now that's a great topic for discussion!   It has sometimes seemed to be the very spirit of this board.

al

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

YOU WROTE:  Chuck, I did not write that "dissertation."   That was written by Dave Sable as a consideration of GG's teaching.  The purpose was not to refute him as much to show that if you follow the logic of his teaching it works out to believers ending up in the lake of fire.  To most Christians, such an idea is so far from anything you could legitimately call salvation as to be refutation enough.

MY RESPONSE:  My error. I apologize.  However, that is not the conclusion at which I arrived in reading the writings of the men I previously listed.  If this is what George taught or alluded to, I  disagree.  I have written my own thoughts in an article entitled “Entrance Into the Kingdom.” 

YOU WROTE:  There isn't really a need to write long posts supporting or criticizing these ideas, as it is all available on the web.  All one has to do is Google Hodges, Dillow, Faust or such and there it is.  Faust, btw, openly teaches that the believer ends up in the lake of fire.  Seems ironic to me....a guy named "Faust" sends Christians to the lake of fire.  Nice.

MY RESPONSE:  Brother, you do both of us a disservice by including this man Faust’s writings in your criticism.  I haven’t read any of Faust’s writings and probably won’t, nor did I include him on my list of aiuthors.  I have read Hodges and Dillow and concur with much of what they have written on the subject.  I won’t presume that you ascribe to some of the distorted teachings I have read in refutation of their writings and would ask that you reserve your opinion concerning what I believe until you have read what I have written at some length on the subject.

YOU WROTE:  There are many articles critical of the teaching on the web.  A good one is found at http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesov.htm

MY RESPONSE:  I shall read it. There are also quite a few sites on Dillow’s book “The Reign of the Servant Kings.  There are arguments pro and con, and although most of the essential thoughts have been condensed, one can get an idea about both sides of the argument - but the book itself, although quite lengthy, I found to be very complete, concise and very convincing.  Understand. Tom, I am very firm in my convictions, but not locked into any position.  I could be wrong   I will just say that in reading the reasoning, pro and con during the past 15 years or so, I have found the “kingdom doctrine” (for lack of  better description) to be much more convincing than the counter arguments.  I’ll be happy to read yours. 

YOU WROTE: Tomorrow I will try to finish my comments on the Overcomer teaching, and will deal with the verses you mentioned.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

MY RESPONSE:  I shall read it.

P.S. I trust that my method of responding to your posts and those of others is not a source of irritation to anyone.   I have a very difficult time reading the small print in the standard boxed quotes and thought others might have the same problem.  However, if my method is confusing to some, I will adopt the standard procedure.

In His service.

Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Clarence, 

Allow me to make a few observations and suggestions concerning your post.  Having left the Assembly after only about 2 years of involvement,  I never went through what many of you did, so I can’t say “I know what you are going through.”  However, regardless of your prior involvement and your current situation, there are, I believe, some basic scriptural principles that can be applied universally to encompass every area of our life. 

Concerning financial, professional and career development, each individual has a different level of skills, training and education, and will have to seek a job commensurate with those skills and training.  But regardless of what that entails, we must adapt a work ethic that will apply to whatever area of endeavor we pursue.  I found that the application of  Colossians 3: 22 to 4:1 covers just about any work situation imaginable except for the one who is self- employed, with no employees.  Now I’m well aware that Paul is speaking here of slaves and masters, but the principles that Paul sets out are perfectly adaptable for anything from simple janitorial work to the highest level of management.  Let’s first take a look at Paul’s instruction in verses 23-24 and simply substitute “employee” for the word “slave.”

 22 Slaves [employees], in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
 23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.                                                  Colossians 3:22-24

Whatever job I have, I should consider that I am working for the Lord, and  I should be diligent, honest (impeccably so) cooperative with those either above me or below me, and always striving to make them successful in their jobs.  The quality of my work should be such that it would pass the Lord’s inspection and even surpass the employer’s standard of  excellence.  I should have no expectations as to how “fairly“ I am going to be treated by my employer, but rather, respond in the manner prescribed by Peter when he said:

18 Servants [employees], be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.
19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.    1 Peter 2:18-20

If this sounds like I’m touting “Uncle Tom” as an example, you’re absolutely correct.  Personally, I can’t think of a higher complement one could be paid by the Lord Jesus.

If one should find themselves in a position of management, then you should apply Col 4:1 which reads:

1 Masters [employers, managers], grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.

One who is in a position of authority over others should apply the same principle of Jesus’ instruction to His disciples,
 
42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.
43 "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.               Mark 10:42-44
 
I realize that some of you will view these verses as limited in their scope, and not strictly applicable to the work ethic.  I won’t argue the point, but I do know that they worked in my own life and I believe they can in yours. 

In 1980, at age 53,  I began employment at a Workshop and Training Center for mentally handicapped adults.  I began at the lowest level as a part time employee, doing primarily janitorial work for minimum wage.  I had no previous skills and my highest education level was 2 years of College, majoring in Mechanical Engineering  (I had flunked out in my second year).   I had no illusions as to my future career development nor my financial  security.  Five years later, I was one of two assistants to the Director, having worked up to that next-to-highest tier on the Center’s corporate ladder.  I don’t say this boastfully, since I can only attribute it to the work ethic I had gleaned from the scriptures. Having attained a position where I was in middle management, I was able to apply this ethic, both to those over me and those under my supervision. 
At my last review before resigning, It was gratifying when the Director commented,  “Chuck, the thing I really have appreciated about your working here is that, no matter what I ever asked you to do, you always did it to the best of your ability, willingly and cheerfully.”  When the Director retired, I was encouraged by some of my former fellow employees to apply for the position.  I declined for personal reasons, but it was a joy to reflect on how the Lord had honored my commitment to His word.   He is a great God. 
May you be encouraged by this little vignette of His faithfulness

In His service,

Chuck

[M2]

The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews wrote:

13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;                                                               Hebrews 13:15

And the apostle Paul said:

17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone  Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19  Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.                                  Romans 12:17-19

I have considered the comments of those who have a different opinion concerning their need to deal with the bitterness they hold toward those who have offended them.  Most have disagreed with my suggestion concerning what I believe to be a scriptural means of dealing with our feelings in the aftermath of the Assembly meltdown.

I don’t mind a difference of opinion, and I welcome the comments of those who have  found another means of extracting the root of bitterness that inevitably springs up when we have been subjected to the kind of treatment that we received at the hands of George Geftakys and those in leadership in the Assembly.  However, to date, I’ve heard very little about how to effectively deal with anger and bitterness, but instead, I heard mostly reasons why we are not obligated to ask forgiveness of those against whom we still hold bitterness in our heart.

So, let me strike a bargain with you.  For the sake of more fruitful discussion, I will cease striving to convince you to go to those who have offended you and ask their forgiveness for your bitterness,   In turn, I will ask that you refrain from further commentary on the action I took, and instead, offer an alternative means by which I might have dealt with my bitterness, and also,relate how you have successfully dealt with your own.
....
In His service,

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I have been giving your "confess your bitterness" suggestion some thought.  I don't see that the verses that you quoted suggest that we do so.  The verses also do not indicate that if I do not "confess my bitterness" that I am still bitter, or that I am not doing all possible to be at peace with the brethren.

On the other hand, if I were to "confess" I may actually be giving ammunition to the leaders to hold their captives in bondage.  Let me give you an example that is based on an actual event.  A local mega-church has outgrown its sanctuary.  They have purchased land and plan to build a new larger one and sell the existing property.  In the mean time they have 2 Sunday services at their existing location and have told those with no kids to meet in another location where the morning message is viewed on video for another service.  An assembly person, in recounting this news, simply said "the church has split".  He did not lie, but possibly by stating it that way he intended to communicate that they were having problems.  Of course, I happened to be around so i set the record straight.

Think about what George could do with a "confession".

Marcia

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

YOU WROTE:   I still have considerable anger against GG and those that still defend him, and I believe it is the only appropriate response to such evil.   When I consider those that have been crushed by his false use of authority, beating of the sheep, the heaping of false guilt, shaming, the damaged and shipwrecked, etc.

MY RESPONSE:  We’ve already seen that the Lord has exposed George’s immoral conduct and in the process, many have come to understand his false use of authority.  He  will accomplish what concerns us (Ps 138:, but He doesn’t condone our working in contradiction to His commands.  I pity those who still defend him.  They are blind and have fallen into the pit with him.   

YOU WROTE:  The focus should be on what GG did, his need to admit it, and his open and clear repentance----- not , on individuals hurt by that evil learning how to somehow rid themselves of the bad feelings that they have toward him!

MY RESPONSE:  The focus should be upon how each one of us responds in obedience to the word of God and not upon trying to compel George to repent.   As we do this, we will find that there is no need “to learn to somehow rid ourselves of the bad feelings we have toward him” - the Lord will relieve us of those feelings.

YOU WROTE:  When those slain "for the testimony to Jesus" cried out for vengeance against their persecutors in Rev. they were not corrected by God to change their desire for judgment against such evil doers.

MY RESPONSE:  Take note, Mark, that they were crying out - "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (Revelation 6:10).  They were admonishing the Lord to exact His vengeance upon those who had persecuted them.   Have we any doubt that, in His time and in His own way, He would do so?   I don’t believe it is wrong for us to implore the Lord to do what He has promised to do.   

YOU WROTE:  Here are the key distinctions, IMHO, between when I am being "bitter" and when I am "standing against evil" (in the context of the Assembly discussion):

1.) I'm bitter if I see it as "they done me wrong" and I'm just responding out of my own personal hurt.

The Martyrs in Rev. quoted above were not crying out for personal revenge against the individual who killed them, but because they were passionately against the "evil" that produced the agents that killed them. Evil, in the form of teaching and practice, becomes a systemized force (ex.= radical Islam).

MY RESPONSE:  Again, I see no scriptural justification for bitterness.  To me it can signify a lack of confidence in the Lord’s plan to bring about justice in His chosen time.  God used a woman named Betsy Ten Boom to witness to the inmates in a Nazi concentration camp.  She was more passionate for the testimony of Christ than she was against the evil (fascism) that produced the agents of Hitler’s hatred.

YOU WROTE:   2.) I'm standing against evil if I understand that GG and the Assembly are fundamentally opposed to God's will and are a stumbling block to those seeking to follow God.

MY RESPONSE:  And stand we should, but we should not allow anger and bitterness to detract from our stand.  He has promised that He will deal with those who stumble His little ones.

YOU WROTE:  If I don't believe this than the Assembly is just another church that is just as bad (or good) as the next church and we are making much ado about nothing.  However, the facts seem pretty clear that GG is the one needing to get things right in his life with God, not those he wronged.

MY RESPONSE:  George’s Assemblies were (are) not functioning in accordance with the instructions of Christ for His body.  Unfortunately, that can be said of many of the traditional denominational churches today, so, to some degree they are “just another church that is as bad as the next church” 
Certainly, George has a need to get things right with his life, but that doesn’t excuse away our unscriptural conduct.   

YOU WROTE:  3.) My emotional state is a poor gauge for discerning when to forgive and when to take a passionate stand against evil.   

MY RESPONSE:  Correct, Mark, that’s why we have to rely upon the word of God and not upon our feelings.   I believe we can take a passionate stand against evil, without forgiving an unrepentant sinner.   

YOU WROTE:  Much of the discussion surrounding "forgiveness" is an effort to make us feel better.   When we have hurt feelings we try to find a "spiritual solution" to take away that pain.  This "solution" drives us inward to exam our own motives in an attempt to judge whether we are in tune with God.

MY RESPONSE:  I don’t know of any other solution but the “spiritual solution” that will take away the pain.  And why shouldn’t it make us “feel better” if we are responding in obedience to the Lord.  I believe the “feeling” comes from experiencing His pleasure. 

YOU WROTE:  Unfortunately, this takes our attention away from what is actually happening in a situation, like evaluating my responses to GG, etc.----- the truth should always be our focus, and this is how God leads us, not by the absence/presence of emotional conflict in my heart. 

                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

MY RESPONSE:  Yes, the truth should always be our focus, and I believe the emotional conflict in our heart is caused by the conviction the Lord lays on our heart when we aren’t acting in obedience to His commands. 

In His service,

Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Mark,

YOU WROTE:  Hi Chuck and others!  This has been an oft discussed topic on the BB and a very difficult one at that.

It is difficult because the Bible clearly commands us to "forgive" those that sin against us and yet we see Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. just as clearly exhibiting behavior that was angry, sarcastic, and generally not what we would normally consider "forgiving" (some might have suggested that these persons above were "bitter")

I believe it is important to be clear as to what Jesus was teaching re. forgiveness and to do this we must compare Jesus teaching to "forgive them for they know not what they do" alongside passages like his "scourging of the Temple." 

MY RESPONSE:  I covered this in a previous post (Reply #28. October 29, 2005), so I won’t repeat what I have already stated.

YOU WROTE:  Likewise Paul's teaching to "forgive one another," next to his very passionate sarcastic statement for his desire that certain false teachers "demasculate [sp] themsevelves

MY RESPONSE:  Yes, Paul exhorted, “Be kind to one another, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you” (Eph 4:32), and he also said, “I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate (emasculate) themselves.”

I don’t have a positive opinion about what would appear to be an unseemly remark made by Paul, if we were to take it in a literal sense.  Theologians have grappled with this for centuries and haven’t come to an agreement concerning what Paul is implying.  So it would be presumptuous of me to suggest that I have discovered the truth on the subject.  So I can only give my opinion based upon what we know about Paul from the scriptures.

What these Jews were preaching to the Galatians was a different gospel (Gal 1:6-9). They were claiming that circumcision was necessary for salvation.  The issue here was their justification, not their sanctification.   I could perhaps, liken Paul’s feelings to my own about the false doctrine of the Catholic Church concerning the need to be baptized into the Catholic Church in order to be saved.  So in like manner, I might say that “I wish that those who are troubling you would even drown themselves” - out of hatred - not for the individuals who preach it, but out of concern for the testimony of Christ and His completed work on the cross.  I have often said, “I don’t hate Catholics, but I do hate Catholicism.“

So as far as I know, George does not preach a “different gospel” relating to justification, but from what I gather, his doctrine about “Overcomers “ concerns the sanctification and glorification of one who has been justified.  I haven’t heard anyone imply that George preaches a “different gospel.”  And although I would probably disagree with him on certain aspects of how a believer becomes an “overcomer,” it would not cause me to be bitter toward him.  It is the same feeling I have toward those who are strict ‘Calvinists’ or strict ‘Arminians” – disagreement, but not hatred.  My bitterness stemmed from the unwarranted authority he and his leading brothers assumed in lording over the saints.  It was something that I had to “see to it” that I, by His marvelous grace, dealt with in my life.

YOU WROTE:  We will be less than God would have us to be if in the face of evil we interpret forgiveness as a passive indifference to such as GG and his creation, the Assembly.

MY RESPONSE:  I do not interpret forgiveness as a “passive indifference.”  I consider it to be one of the greatest achievements of the grace of God in the life of a believer.   However, this is not a matter of forgiving George, but a matter of  seeing to my own shortcoming concerning availing myself of the grace of God.

YOU WROTE:  We cannot see the issue of religious evil (that which hurts God's people) only in terms of my personal emotional state (bitterness), and so to speak, "turn the other cheek," in trying to make ammends with GG, etc.

MY RESPONSE:  Mark, you err in suggesting that I advocate “making amends” to the likes of George Geftakys.  I have nothing for which to make amends to George.  I do advocate obeying the commands of the word to “see to it” I don’t come short of the grace of God; and that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble.  That doesn’t constitute “turning the other cheek,” but rather, guarding against bitterness in my own heart that was destructive to myself and to others around me.  It was for my own benefit, and for my children’s benefit that the Lord led me to go to Omaha to ask forgiveness.  As it turned out, the LB’s missed the point, and suffered the consequences by spending another 20 years under George’s dominance. 

YOU WROTE:  How can we make the distinction between "bitter and unforgiving" vs. "defenders of the sheep against evil?"

MY RESPONSE: We can do our best to defend the sheep against evil without being bitter. James said: “This you know, my beloved brethren, but everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;  for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God“  (James 1:19-20).

 “It is a rare individual who recognizes his own bitterness and it is rare for a bitter individual to be able to expound on the word of God effectively.

And Paul said:
 
24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them
repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.                            2 Tim 2:24-26

We all pray that those who are being deceived will come to their senses, and Paul instructs us in the manner in which should attempt to correct them.

[continue below]

[al Hartman]

Chuck, thanks for the following:

And Paul said:
 
24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them
repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.                           
2 Tim 2:24-26

        ...and Paul instructs us in the manner in which should attempt to correct them.

Yes, indeed, Paul told Timothy to be not quarrelsome, be kind, able to teach, patient when wronged, gently correcting his opposers, thus granting them the opportunity for repentance which could lead them to the knowledge of the truth (Christ).

Then Paul continues from that very point with these words which begin chapter 3 (from the English Standard Version):

1  But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2  For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to    their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3  heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not loving good,
4  treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5  having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.  Avoid such people.
6  For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened    with sins and led astray by various passions,
7  always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
8  Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth (Christ),    men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
9  But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

2Tim.3:1-9(ESV)

Having been in "the work" for some years and having later had my eyes opened, I suppose you can guess what man that passage most perfectly describes to me. 

My question to you, Chuck, especially in light of Marcia's recent post,

Think about what George could do with a "confession".

is twofold:

First, how to recognize when someone has gone beyond the description in 2:25-26 and become one of those described in 3:8.

Second, based on the answer to the first, how we should know when to observe the instruction of 3:5c, to
"Avoid such people?" 
KJV: "from such turn away";
NIV: "Have nothing to do with them.";
NASB: "Avoid such men as these.";
Phillips: "You must keep clear of people like this."

al

[Oscar]

Part II


Chuck,



A few days back I said I would finish my comments on the “Overcomer” ideas of Dillow, Hodges, and others.  In my previous post I stated that I feel that this teaching is wrong in a number of very serious ways, and listed two: 

1. It denigrates the efficacy of the finished redemptive work of Christ by illegitimately dividing its application into two phases.  In the first phase the sins committed prior to salvation are forgiven unconditionally.  In the second phase, only the sins specifically confessed are forgiven.  Therefore the sinning Christian carries a burden of guilt beyond death and into eternity, with resultant judgment falling upon him after death. (Roman Catholicism, btw, developed this idea into major doctrinal errors.)  I stated that this constitutes a salvation based on faith plus works, and that this teaching directly contradicts the clear teaching of such verses as Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 8:28-30.
It also rejects the great Reformation principle of Sola Fide, (Faith Alone).

2. It denigrates the efficacy of the high priestly ministry of Christ heaven.  Since the purpose of his ministry is to “bring many sons to glory” as the “author of their salvation”, ( Hebrews 2:10-11), the overcomer teaching is tantamount to saying that he regularly fails to fulfill the purpose of his ministry.

I also said I would have more to say on the subject.  So, here are some further comments.  I have neither the interest or the desire to parse every scripture that these folks bring up, so I am going to address principles rather than verses.

3. The teaching is based on a purely Baconian interpretive method.  Theological Baconianism arose as a result of Francis Bacon’s development of observation and experiment followed by arriving at likely interpretations of the data by inductive reasoning. We call this the "Scientific Method." During the 19th century it became very popular and was applied to Theology, Law, and Social Science.  It is no accident that the Restorationist movement that produced the Campbellite, Plymouth Brethren, and Mormon movements appeared at this time.  In theology, it was not really a useable interpretive method before the invention of the printing press (1463), the Protestant Reformation, (1517), and the division of the scriptures into verses, (1560).

The way the method works is to treat the various verses of scripture as scientific data.  One collects the “data”, ( the passages of scripture), examines them in relation to one another and then, by induction, develops general principles. We apply a “lite” version of the method when we “compare scripture with scripture”, and it is a quite legitimate interpretive method.  But only when used with other methods. 

It is, for example, the way in which we show that Presbyters and Elders were the same individuals in the early days of the Church.  It is also, however, the way that the Campbellites, (Christian Church and Church of Christ), derived their teaching on baptismal salvation.  They collected all the verses on baptism, including Acts 2:38, and concluded that Christians should be baptized in Jesus name for forgiveness of sin!  This happened because they ignored the fact that the verse was addressed to a special class of believer!  These folks were already believers, they were “God fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.”  This verse is addressed to a group of people who no longer exist, ie, OT believers who lived in the days of Christ’s earthly ministry!  The Baconian method alone led the Campbellites to make this error, and develop a confused gospel message.

The Overcomer teaching we are discussing is the result of the application of Baconiansim primarily to two classes of scripture; parables and prophecy.  These two areas are the most inferential passages of scripture, and the ones in which we find the most disagreement among Christians.  In order to accept the Overcomer teacher’s conclusions, one must first accept all of their interpretations of these two areas.  That is where I got off the bus back in my assembly days. 

Most Overcomer teachers teach partial rapturism.  Panton, Lang, Pember, and Groves for example.  Matthew 15:1-10, the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins, is one of the verses they cite in support of their error.  They use this, and other parables, to exhort Christians to diligence and holiness. Now these things are good.  But they are not the point of this parable.  I remember laughing when I noticed that there is absolutely no difference in the behavior of the two classes of people.  The difference was in what they possessed, (the oil), not in what they did.  And “many such things do ye…”

CONTINUED

[Oscar]

Part III


4. Major Christian doctrines are taught in clear passages.  This is known by theologians as the “perspicuity of scripture.”  This Overcomer teaching is not clearly taught in any
passage.  Its proponents see it all over the Bible.  But you have to already believe it and read into passages where it is not explicitly taught.   This teaching concerns the very nature of salvation, and therefore qualifies as a “major”, if not “the major” Christian doctrine.

5. The overcomer teaching is a recent innovation.  To me, the idea that the apostles failed to transmit the message of salvation clearly to their disciples is incredible.   That is what you must believe if you accept this teaching.  The church at large, in this view, did not really understand salvation until the 19th century!  I just can’t buy that.

6. The Overcomer teaching changes our entire basis for Christian life and service from loving gratitude to our all sufficient savior to a fearful anticipation of judgement that cannot be relieved by any of the Bible’s promises.  One just never knows if they will receive a passing score for a “full” salvation.

There is much more that could be said, but I think this is adequate to show why I, at least, will not be riding on the Overcomerism bus any time soon.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer