Forget & Forgive?

[Marty]

Chuck---

I know your discussion is with Tom, so I will keep this short. I mentioned in an earlier post that
"scripture answers scripture". You mention below the verse that says "If we suffer with him, that
we might also be glorified with him."  Then you mentioned 1 Thessalonians 2:5 "This is a plain
indication of God's righteous judgement that you will be considered worthy of the Kingdom of God for which you indeed ARE suffering". Notice: One verse says "IF you suffer" and the other verse says you ARE suffering".

The verse you mentioned which says "IF we suffer with him, that we MIGHT also be glorified with him"--this is speaking in the present tense. But notice Romans 8:30 in contrast: "Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, he also justified, and whom he justified,
THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED". This is clearly in the past tense--God considers it an accomplished fact.

There are verses which point at OUR responsibility. But can we do it? Can we make it on our own? Of course not!! "If we suffer..." is answered by the Lord who says "for which indeed you ARE suffering".  "If you suffer with him, you MIGHT be glorified with him.." is answered with "Them he justified, them he also glorified(past tense). In effect God asks the question "If" and then gives the answer "You are and you shall".   "it is finished"  FAITHFUL IS HE WHO CALLED YOU, WHO ALSO WILL DO IT(1 Thess. 5:24).

--Joe

Joe,

Are you saying here that ALL Christians will receive ALL the same things in the life after? That a Christian’s faithfulness or lack thereof here on earth has no bearing on what they will receive after?

If this be so, why would a Christian who struggles with a particular sin bother to deal with it? Why not just succumb to it? After all Hebrews does tell us that there is some pleasure in sin. Why not just live for our self indulgence if there is no consequence in eternity for it?

I believe that I am not the only one who would like to know the answers to these questions.

Martin

[Joe Sperling]

Marty---

I explained this before, but I'll try again. I believe the Scriptures teach that when you are saved,
you "inherit" all things. The joy of the Christian life is realizing what is "already" yours in Christ. BUT,
this does not apply to the "rewards" that will be handed out at the judgement seat of Christ. I
believe that ALL Christians ARE overcomers. Why? We are "IN" Christ---and Christ has ALREADY
overcome. The "rewards" that Christians receive for service are not "inherited" as Christ and Heaven
are. The rewards will be given for your service to Christ. You can lose a crown, but you cannot lose
Christ or heaven. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance"--and remember whom God
has "called" he ALREADY sees as "glorified"(See Romans 8:30--argue with it all you want, but it states
this in the past tense).

Remember Jesus' parable about the workers agreeing to be paid a penny, and the one's that started
early in the day complained because the people who came later in the day were paid the same? They were angry because they felt they should be paid more, but they had agreed to a penny when they started. This to me sums up salvation--ALL Christians will receive the same in HEAVEN as an inheritance, whether they have been a Christian 30 years, or 3 days---because you CANNOT EARN
heaven.

But again, this does not apply to the "rewards" for service. These are crowns---not the inheritance which is common to all Christians. If you say "Wait, but that isn't fair!! Why should all Christians receive the same Inheritance??" you are reacting just as the workers did in the parable. I hope this explains where I am coming from a bit better.

--Joe

[tenderhearted]

Joe:

I know I am butting into a conversation between you and Marty.

I just want to say.

I agree with you.

Because the Bible says that our position in Christ in regards to salvations is free.
We cannot lose our salvation.

The Bible also says we also need to build up our rewards in heaven, as we serve Christ here on earth.  In other parts, we can enter heaven with everything burned up, including hairs on our body. We can enter heaven smelling of smoke and fire, becaused we havent given our best to Christ. 
We must earn those crowns that Paul mention, so when we are presented to Christ, we will have something to give to him.

Recently in a Bible Study we were talking about this very thing.
A question popped up.  Do I want to enter heaven, presented in front of our Lord and King, with smell of smoke and fire and nothing of value to give to him? We have salvation and assurance of eternal life. But the quality of that eternal life as we are servants of Christ here on earth is our choice isnt it.

Thanks for listening .

Lenore

[Chuck Miller]

Tom, Verne, Joe

The contention that all believers are “overcomers raises some interesting questions.  I would ask those of you who hold to that belief to take the time to post your answers for me to consider. 

When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation?  If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomer?  What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer?  Will he still inherit the kingdom?  Will he still inherit eternal life?

If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

God bless,

Chuck

[bystander]

For anyone who might be interested in reading a great book, written by a theologian in a manner that helps regular folk understand some of these things, I recommend,

Be Free---commentary on Galatians,  by Warren Wiersbe.

Warren Wiersbe didn't spend any time being fooled by Geftakys, and does a fine job explaining why and how people get caught up in that sort of thing.  You might be interested to know that it is nothing new, and that it was going on in Galatia two millenia ago.

Warren Wiersbe is not a recent seminary graduate, neither is he an eclectic sort of theologian.  He is a pastor and scholar, not to mention a gifted author and teacher.  I recommend his book!

bystander

[vernecarty]

Tom, Verne, Joe

The contention that all believers are “overcomers raises some interesting questions.  I would ask those of you who hold to that belief to take the time to post your answers for me to consider. 

When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation?  If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomer?  What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer?  Will he still inherit the kingdom?  Will he still inherit eternal life?

If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

God bless,

Chuck

I was getting ready to post a response to the "when" of inheritance as per your original query but the above post raises a question that I would like to pose before doig so Chuck and it is this:

Do you believe that once saved, a person can loose their salvation?
Verne

[Chuck Miller]

Vern,

No, I don't believe that, once saved, a person can lose their salvation.

Chuck

[vernecarty]

Vern,

No, I don't believe that, once saved, a person can lose their salvation.

Chuck

Thanks for the response Chuck.

I will freely confess that the when of  inheritance is a dicey subject. It is very clear to even the most casual observer that much of what God intends to do in the life of his children as regards their salvation is yet future, for example the redemption of the body.
In that sense, we can obviously then speak of the matter of inheritance as being something future.


That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body…


Having given that caveat, is it possible that we are so conditioned to thinking of the believer’s inheritance in terms of some future event or events, that we entirely miss the power and reality of the earnest of the present possession?
The tense used by Paul in speaking about the believer’s inheritance in Ephesians is present perfect.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance…Ephesians 1:11

I am going to say something about the when of inheritance that some of you will probably find just a bit radical, but I hope nonetheless will spur some serious reflection… 
Verne

[Oscar]

Chuck,

You said:

To me, it sounds as though you're confusing "opinion," with "fact," Tom. I have documented proof that my name is Charles Miller, and I haven’t found anyone who has any doubt about it. It isn't an opinion; it is a fact. Therefore, I find your analogy to be, at best, weak and totally unconvincing. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of strange reasoning doesn't do anything to enhance your credentials as a reliable exegetist of scriptural truth, your 40 years of study notwithstanding.

Actually, you have a document that says your name is Charles Miller, (I assume you are speaking of a birth certificate).  You also believe that the document is valid.  It probably has the seal of the county registrar's office and such.   Your parents and relatives told you your name was Charles Miller when you were a kid.  There are probably still a few living witnesses to this.  The documents and the testimony of witnesses are objective evidence.  You believe that this is sufficient to prove that your name is, in fact, Charles Miller. ( I do not doubt that this is correct, btw.)

Beliefs, however, are not objectivly demonstrable.  You can't take them out and line them up on your desk.  Beliefs exist in our minds, not in the world of physical reality.   Opinions are a type of belief.  They are, by nature, subjective.  Therefore, the phrase "subjective opinion" is, in fact, a tautology.  It is tantamount to saying, "a subjective subjective belief."

More importantly though, the phrase, "in your opinion," or "that is just your opinion" when used to discount someone's position in a discussion simply states what everyone should already know.  In my opinion, I am Thomas Maddux.  The fact that it is a subjective belief about my identity says nothing whatsoever about its validity. 

Let's say that  in a discussion a person says, "We are saved by grace through faith," and the other person replies, "in your opinion." The respondent has said absolutely nothing about the validity of the first person's belief.  In order to discount the stated opinion, the respondent would need to give a valid argument against it.  Statements like "in your opinion" are actually a weak form of ad hominem argument.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Tom, Verne, Joe

The contention that all believers are “overcomers raises some interesting questions.  I would ask those of you who hold to that belief to take the time to post your answers for me to consider. 

When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation?  If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomer?  What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer?  Will he still inherit the kingdom?  Will he still inherit eternal life?

If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

From the very beginning, Satan's project was to deny, discount, distort and obscure God's truth.  God said, "you will die."  Satan said, "Has God said...?" And "You surely will not die."  The great conflict of the ages is the conflict between God and satan, light and darkness, truth and the lie.

  As a result of believing Satan's lie, Adam and all mankind lost the direct apprehension of God.  As a result, God had to reveal himself to men sensibly, as in the burning bush, the pillar of fire/cloud, or in dreams, visions, inspired utterance or angels.

Satan is the god of this world, and the whole world lies in his power, (I john 5:19).  He is the Father of Lies.  He has inspired religions and philosophies in all the ages to blind men's minds to the light of the gospel, (2 Cor 4:4).  He has demonically twisted men's political systems to persecute and obliterate the testimony of God, (Eph. 5:10-12).

When a man believes the gospel of the grace of God he is born of God, (I John 5:1).  The light of God shines in his heart giving knowledge of the glory of
God in the face of Jesus Christ, (2 Cor. 4:6).  Through grace, the sinner has placed his faith in the One who overcame the world, (John 16:33), by overruling its god and his demonic hosts, (Lk 10:17-18).  He is immediately "rescued from the domain, (rule) of darkness" and transferred to the victor's kingdom, (Col. 1:12-14).  He is now redeemed, his sins are forgiven, and he is "qualified to share in the inheritance of the saints in light", (Col. 1:12).

So, saving faith, producing a new man who is "born of God", is the victory that overcomes the world. "Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God."   Overcoming the world does not mean conquering its kingdoms or the flesh.  It means becoming one with the Victor.

Having said this, let me point out that the Bible does not call anyone an "overcomer".  Rather, it speaks of individuals or groups overcoming the world, the evil one, their persecutors, etc.   It is not the name of a class of people.  The teaching is that in Christ, we overcome.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[Chuck Miller]

Joe, In your post to Marty, you wrote:

I believe that ALL Christians ARE overcomers. Why? We are "IN" Christ---and Christ has ALREADY overcome. The "rewards" that Christians receive for service are not "inherited" as Christ and Heaven are. The rewards will be given for your service to Christ. You can lose a crown, but you cannot lose Christ or heaven. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance"--and remember whom God has "called" he ALREADY sees as "glorified"(See Romans 8:30--argue with it all you want, but it states
this in the past tense).

And we also read: 

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.       Ephesians 2:1-6

And

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for me.       Galatians 2:20

Joe, would you say that that you have been physically crucified with Christ and that you are now seated with Him in the heavenly places?
If you do, then I won't venture into further discussion with you about overcomers.  But I don't think you do, Joe, and if not, what do believe Paul meant for us to understand by these verses?

Chuck

[vernecarty]

From the very beginning, Satan's project was to deny, discount, distort and obscure God's truth.  God said, "you will die."  Satan said, "Has God said...?" And "You surely will not die."  The great conflict of the ages is the conflict between God and satan, light and darkness, truth and the lie.

  As a result of believing Satan's lie, Adam and all mankind lost the direct apprehension of God.  As a result, God had to reveal himself to men sensibly, as in the burning bush, the pillar of fire/cloud, or in dreams, visions, inspired utterance or angels.

Satan is the god of this world, and the whole world lies in his power, (I john 5:19).  He is the Father of Lies.  He has inspired religions and philosophies in all the ages to blind men's minds to the light of the gospel, (2 Cor 4:4).  He has demonically twisted men's political systems to persecute and obliterate the testimony of God, (Eph. 5:10-12).

When a man believes the gospel of the grace of God he is born of God, (I John 5:1).  The light of God shines in his heart giving knowledge of the glory of
God in the face of Jesus Christ, (2 Cor. 4:6).  Through grace, the sinner has placed his faith in the One who overcame the world, (John 16:33), by overruling its god and his demonic hosts, (Lk 10:17-18).  He is immediately "rescued from the domain, (rule) of darkness" and transferred to the victor's kingdom, (Col. 1:12-14).  He is now redeemed, his sins are forgiven, and he is "qualified to share in the inheritance of the saints in light", (Col. 1:12).

So, saving faith, producing a new man who is "born of God", is the victory that overcomes the world. "Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God."   Overcoming the world does not mean conquering its kingdoms or the flesh.  It means becoming one with the Victor.

Having said this, let me point out that the Bible does not call anyone an "overcomer".  Rather, it speaks of individuals or groups overcoming the world, the evil one, their persecutors, etc.   It is not the name of a class of people.  The teaching is that in Christ, we overcome.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

Word!
Verne

[vernecarty]

To the degree that God gives some control of the course of events in the progress of space-time to His creatures, on the question of the when of inheritance, let me pose this stunning question:

When do you want to inherit?

Someone has stated that inheritance is a matter of authority and there is some truth to that.
I would argue that inheritance is more importantly a matter of power...
Why do I make what might seem a minor distinction?
Simple - it is entirely possible to have authority, yet lack power.
If you doubt thte truth of this statement, just take a look at the vast majority of Christian marriages today. Some of you will get my subtle drift on this and it has nothing to do with chauvinism - my own wife happens to be my intellectual superior
There is no question that while all believers are saved the same way- by grace through faith, not all believers live the same way.

When do you want to inherit?

How is it that when we look at some of our brethren, we get the distinct sense that they must know something that we don't?
I still remember having the Alliance pastor from Mali, Maurice Guindo as a guest in my home and thinking that this man reminded more of the Lord Jesus Christ than anyone I had ever met.
I watchd the incredible gentleness of spirit with which he interacted with my precious daughters and remember thinking: I would like to be like that...

Why is it that so many of us have no expectation of enjoyment of inheritance in the present life, and our view of the walk of faith is merely fearful prospect of what we might loose at some future date?

When do you want to inherit?!

Is it possible that God in His remarkable grace and loving-kindness has made it possible that in some respects, the when of inheritance depends entirely upon you?!

I can hear it now, Whoa.... Nelly!

As a couple of comedians used to say ( I think it was Hans and Franz):

Hear me now and believe me later...!   

If it is indeed possible for us to experience and enjoy inheritance in the here and now, then why don't we? What's up with that??!

In my humble opinon, so many us of think and live like spiritual indigents
because:
1. we do not know how to eat (or drink) and
2. we do not know how to fight...
Verne

Next ...nourishment and warfare....

[Sondra Jamison]

To the degree that God gives some control of the course of events in the progress of space-time to His creatures, on the question of the when of inheritance, let me pose this stunning question:

When do you want to inherit?

Someone has stated that inheritance is a matter of authority and there is some truth to that.
I would argue that inheritance is more importantly a matter of power...
Why do I make what might seem a minor distinction?
Simple - it is entirely possible to have authority, yet lack power.
If you doubt thte truth of this statement, just take a look at the vast majority of Christian marriages today. Some of you will get my subtle drift on this and it has nothing to do with chauvinism - my own wife happens to be my intellectual superior
There is no question that while all believers are saved the same way- by grace through faith, not all believers live the same way.

Verne,

A couple thoughts regarding inheritance.  I posted on SWTE in order to keep the continuity of the thread on SWTE.  http://www.soaringwiththeeagles.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=437;start=0#msg1995

Sondra

[vernecarty]

Verne,

A couple thoughts regarding inheritance.  I posted on SWTE in order to keep the continuity of the thread on SWTE.  http://www.soaringwiththeeagles.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=437;start=0#msg1995

Sondra

Hi Sondra:
Please forgive me if you thought my reference to authority in marriage was a reference to the issue of divorce and remarriage - that was the farthest thing from my mind actually.
I was talking about the fact that I personally believe that God wants men to take the spiritual lead in their families, yet is is very often more common to see wives being the better example in this regard.
I believe that Christian men have God-given authority to set a high standard for their families yet many fail to do so. Setting a godly example is not just a matter of having the authority to do so. Husbands, parents, pastors and presidents clearly all have it. The fact that we so often fail to do so is what I was referring to in my distinction between authority and power.
There is not a Christian man alive who will not tell you that whatever perceived authority he has means absolutely nothing apart from the enabling power of the Spirit of God to be the kind of man God wants him to be.

Interesting points about inheritance. The issue of rewards is a complex one and I agree that there does appear to be designated ranks as mentioned by Paul in in his discussion about resurrection glory. It is a topic I have not done much study on but there is no question that rewards are not a given. I do distinguish them from the matter of our inheritance as God's children.
Verne