Forget & Forgive?

[Mark C.]

Thanks Chuck for the challenge!

  Your question is a very good one, and I'm glad that you asked it.

  When I first received Christ, all alone and having never heard of the Assembly, there was a fundamental and truly demonstrable change in my life:

1.) A tremendous feeling of dark oppression left me and a great one of joy replaced it. (a conscious awareness that I had passed from darkness into light).  I knew my sins were forgiven and that I was right with God!

2.) I knew that the Bible was God's word and the words therin were intended to communicate to me the truth, the
way, and the life.

3.) A conviction that now my life was filled with purpose, and that God wanted to use my life to further his will.

    Though I had the three things above, which filled me with a great amount of passion and enthusiasm, I had no understanding of what either of these three things really meant in real life.

   This is when the Assembly came in and took advantage of my lack of wisdom and manipulated my newly discovered joy of salvation.

    Groups such as JW's, Mormons, the Assembly etc. attract members based on their promise of a superior performance in attaining a "godly life" that far exceeds the "worldly churches".

   I have no desire to feign a dishonest testimony of some high degree of spiritual attainment in my life via my strong effort (be that presented in some kind of language that uses "faith and grace); and with great eagerness agree that the only difference in my life, vs. any human, is God's mercy in Christ!

  We do not advance the cause of the Gospel by "making disciples" in some kind of dishonest hype that promises super-spiritual attainment via our own actulazation of our faith.

  "Doesn't that open the door to a 'cheap and shallow' kind of easy believism?"

  Yes, it can, and the bible deplores it, but the answer is not a phony holiness either, but a honest reflection before a loving and merciful God.  Holiness, as Verne said, is a part of the free gift of grace just as much as forgiveness is (though I recognize they work out in our lives differently-- forgiveness is instant and holiness does take time to grow.)

   This kind of honest humility does produce a change in us, though not the kind we expect sometimes:
 
1.) Less sure of self---   Hence, "just forgiven", but with it a more sympathetic and less critical view of others (loving).  This does not mean we get down on ourselves as I did in my Assembly days, but we understand that God accepts us just the way we are---- which is still, though regenerated, very human and thoroughly mortal.

  2.) A truer, and more stable, kind of faith----  This faith is not based on some kind of personal pragmatic test where, "if it works I believe and if it doesn't I don't" that your potential unbelieving poster presented.   

   I would tell this would-be reader of my previous post that, "yes, I made a serious mistake after my salvation in getting involved in a false holiness movement, but I have now learned that the reality of God and His Gospel are only discovered by those painfully aware of their own sinfulness, not by those wanting to establish their own righteousness.
  If you are offended at the bumper sticker "not perfect, only forgiven" then I would suggest, my unsaved friend, that you are unaware of your own sinful heart and pray that God would grant you to feel the conviction of your own deep need of mercy! 

                                      God Bless,  Mark C.
                     
                         Not perfect at all and wonderfully forgiven !

   

[Elizabeth H]

O.K., Elizabeth, let me pose a hypothetical question to you

Your neighbor (or co-worker, relative, whoever) who is not a Christian, invites you to go out for coffee.  After a little small talk, she says, "Elizabeth, I saw you at the movie last night and since it is rated "R," I wondered - ’If I were to become a Christian would it still be O.K. to go to movies like that?  It was pretty bad.'"

How would you answer her?  Now don't be too hasty, Elizabeth.  Remember that your greatest concern is for her eternal life and your greatest desire is to win her to Christ.

Chuck

Hey Chuck,

How's it going?

Hmmm... I guess this is The Battle of Hypotheticals. Problem with hypothetical questions is, they tend to assume a great deal. They can also easily become loaded questions. Hypothetical questions are useful at times, but in this case I fear we are only using them as a means by which to prove the other wrong.

Alas, it's just not that important to me that I be "right."

My hypothetical scenario was meant to simply illustrate what I perceived as a false interpretation of that verse you quoted. To me, it seemed largely legalistic. Obviously, you believe differently. Fine. OK. We are not going to be able to change each other's minds about this.

I, for one, desist from battle.

E.

[Chuck Miller]

Mark,

You wrote:

I have no desire to feign a dishonest testimony of some high degree of spiritual attainment in my life via my strong effort (be that presented in some kind of language that uses "faith and grace); and with great eagerness agree that the only difference in my life, vs. any human, is God's mercy in Christ!

We do not advance the cause of the Gospel by "making disciples" in some kind of dishonest hype that promises super-spiritual attainment via our own actulazation of our faith.

 "Doesn't that open the door to a 'cheap and shallow' kind of easy believism?"

Yes, it can, and the bible deplores it, but the answer is not a phony holiness either, but a honest reflection before a loving and merciful God.  Holiness, as Verne said, is a part of the free gift of grace just as much as forgiveness is (though I recognize they work out in our lives differently-- forgiveness is instant and holiness does take time to grow.)

This kind of honest humility does produce a change in us, though not the kind we expect sometimes:

The purpose of my question to you and the one to Elizabeth was to point out the fact that unbelievers should see something different in our life, not just an outward show of spirituality, but rather a genuine difference emanating from the leading of the Holy Spirit.  If it’s there you can’t hide it, and if it’s not, you can’t fake it.  It can be used by the Spirit to convict others of the sin in their own lives - and I don’t mean finger-pointing or judging.  It should be such that it may used by the Spirit to cause unbelievers to want it in their own life. I remember our daughter, Becky, coming to us before she got saved and said, “Mom and Dad, I don't  know what has happened to you, but whatever it is, I want it too”  And it should be such that it brings glory to God and not ourselves. 

So, if the unbeliever sees us doing the same sinful things that they do, there’s something wrong. 

Just as there came out of the Reformation an almost disdain for “works” - to the point where Luther even wanted James’ Epistle excluded from the canon of scripture - so, it seems there is a similar contempt for the type of works that were practiced by the Assembly.  Such healthy contempt is justifiable in light of the legalistic approach to spirituality that George inflicted upon his sheep.  But who will find fault with works that are done for the purpose of bringing glory to God and to His Son?  And if the reward is a closer proximity to Christ in His kingdom, then who does not cherish it.

As Robert Govett so aptly expressed it,

“The fear of being led into Romish error has too much kept Christ's ministers from proclaiming the duty of good works; and from enforcing them with the motives which God has attached to the duty.  Put good works as the way to justification, and the means of earning eternal life, and 'tis deadly doctrine.  But speak of them as God's demand from those already justified, and possessors of eternal life; and there is no danger.  Nay, it is necessary that they should be enforced.”

You are right Mark when you say, “We do not advance the cause of the Gospel by ‘making disciples’ in some kind of dishonest hype that promises super-spiritual attainment via our own actualization of our faith.”  The cause of the gospel is advanced by our being in constant communion with Christ and being led by the Spirit.  I’ve never  been too taken up by slogans and methods, but I wouldn’t find fault with the latest Christian WWJD (What would Jesus Do?) means of seeking His guidance.

It’s true, Jesus receives us  - “Just as I am,”  Then He admonishes us -  “Trust and Obey.”

I also appreciate the way that R.E. Neighbour differentiates between grace and rewards.

Grace is unmerited favor; Rewards are always merited.
Grace is a free gift; Rewards are wages.
Grace is without money and without price; Rewards cost labor and sacrifice.
Grace looks to God's faithfulness; Rewards look to the believer's faithfulness
Grace places us on the race course; Rewards lure us to "so run."
Grace introduces us into the games; Rewards urge us to "so fight."
Grace says, "Not by deeds of righteousness which we have done;" Reward says, "Well done thou good and faithful servant..." 
                                      
God bless,

Chuck

[Mark C.]

[quote author=Chuck Miller link=topic=1007.msg27967#msg27967

 
The purpose of my question to you and the one to Elizabeth was to point out the fact that unbelievers should see something different in our life, not just an outward show of spirituality, but rather a genuine difference emanating from the leading of the Holy Spirit. 

 
It’s true, Jesus receives us  - “Just as I am,”  Then He admonishes us -  “Trust and Obey.”
Chuck

  Hi Chuck, and Others following this conversation,

  It is plain that the bible directs believers to live righteous lives, and warns Christians of the consequences of disobedience to God.  It is also quite clear that there are rewards that believers can earn for their pursuit of godliness. 

    Our actions and attitudes (expressed behavior) are under our direct control, and believers are told that they are no longer prisoners to sin and can choose to do what is right. 

    The presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives helps us, if truly saved.  Jesus, as our Great High Priest, intercedes for us and the Father watches over (child training) our lives and intervenes as he sees fit.

   I think all evangelical Christians would agree with the above, even those with bumper stickers on their car that say, "CHRISTIANS AREN'T PERFECT JUST FORGIVEN."

   This business of God as regards his child's upbringing is a very individual relationship that we do well not to meddle with.  Yes, we are instructed to rebuke open sinful behavior, and the church is to follow NT instructions for discipline for the unrepentant; all with the intention to bring restoration.

   How do we really know what is going on between God and a believer?  Shall we be like Eli with Hannah and misinterpret her messed up emotional state as being drunk?   

   A former member of the Assembly while attending a church service gets up and runs out the door crying after hearing a message from Acts. 2 on "The 4 Anchors."  Church members might think the woman (not knowing about her Assembly past) was convicted of her sin and was running from a deep feeling of guilt.

   They just don't know what is really going on------ but "God is able to make her stand."  And God really knows how to shepherd his sheep.

    Or, are we to take on the role of Simon the Leper, who was filled with disdain over the sinner woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears?  Simon, "knew what kind of woman she was", but he really didn't, did he?

    This "sinner" was a known prostitute who was totally excluded from the religious community.  She didn't hear the scriptures read, attend public prayer meetings, etc. and as such was judged to be about as far away from "intimacy with Christ" as possible.

  Yet, Jesus had great regard for her and announced that her action would be recorded more than any other individual encounter that Jesus ever had!   

   Even the Disciples didn't understand and incorrectly judged the heart of this woman and what Jesus thought of her----"a broken and contrite heart, oh God, you will not despise."

   Maybe Simon and the Disciples expected that Jesus would have rebuked her for her sinful life? 

   She knew she was a sinner, but she mainly knew that Jesus was her Savior and all her actions were as a result of her trust in that fact.  She was not motivated by rewards for her devotion, rather she was devoted as a result of God's great love for her!

  Yes, it was "trust and obey," but this phrase is only a motto if we don't know the whole story of this life and her God!

  God did reward her though: He announced to those present that her deeds were of the highest order of human acts in godliness, and then promised her story would be told "wherever this gospel is preached."

  I think this is more likely to be the character of the kind of rewards that will be issued and reveals the manner in which these rewards will come about in the lives of believers.

  Simon and the Disciples hoped to earn that kind of reward, but they misunderstood what it truly means to have an "intimate relationship with Christ."  And, what it means to represent Christ to a needy world.

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.   

   

[tkarey]

Dear Chuck,

Hey there. I've never responded to you, so how do you do. Your thoughts are interesting. You said "People who aren't Christians ought to see a difference in people who are Christians. They ought to see something that inspires them to want what Christians have." (paraphrased)

As I read that I immediately had a memory. This summer - when my husband and I were separated - I was over here and our kids were watching videos of kids camp the teenager camp. I found the videos disturbing and I wanted to walk, no, I wanted to run away. Why? First, there's these busloads of kids arriving, doing stupid things that made everyone laugh (except me). Then the video shows wholesome games and activities and guess what? All the kids at kids camp- from the Jr. Counselors (my older kids) to the youngest campers (my younger kids) were having a fantastic time. No one was hanging around the edges talking about how stupid it all was. I'm sure there were a few of those who didn't make it to the video, but they were an exception. Same story for the teenage camp. I felt like I was on an alien planet watching a different species. I became extremely uncomfortable when clips were shown of the worship times. My family goes (and I use to go) to a foursquare church, so worship times often become emotional experiences. I honestly got quesy watching children hug each other, sobbing, pouring their hearts out, raising their hands, falling on their knees. I KNOW most of these children. They're children who struggle with attitudes, desires, family breakups and  school-time drama just like their non-Christian friends. Why was I upset? Because they were so ***@@@ vulnerable. And watching them watch this I knew they didn't see the big deal of it all, but I did. My life was all about NOT being vulnerable ever, ever, ever, ever, ever again. In my heart I was commending them. "You go guys. Hold onto this. Never let it go. And when you want to let it go - when you want to run away from vulnerability - maybe this memory will sustain you and help you to hold fast." And it isn't just me. Every single adult person I met, and most children, since walking "away from vulnerability" (away from God? away from morality? away from whatever) has a series of walls to protect themselves from the world. I know - we all have them. But they are so ingrained, justified, accepted as normal, EXPECTED for survival, in this other world of mine.

I keep making my posts too long! More in the next one.

Karey

[tkarey]

Part Two:

This vulnerability and wholesomness wasn't only confined to camp. They live in it. They reach for it. They are stronger, more stable because of it. Most of their parents are the same way. When I see them from time to time I am embraced. Hi Karey! How are you? It's so good to see you. I suppose that can be accomplished through other means - AA, Tao, name your philosophy - but IMO nothing beats the vulnerability of Truth. (So, why am I still fighting it? I don't know. I'm working on that.)

I don't look at the movies these people go to. I don't care, even while I'm admonishing my children about negative influences. (This is why my 10 y.o. isn't allowed to watch most R-rated movies, though I admit to letting him watch The Patriot recently. My 15 y.o. isn't allowed to be at friends houses when the parents are gone, no matter how nice the family because teenage boys can do some really dumb stuff. Our parenting choices are challenging. We second-guess ourselves all the time, sometimes doing about-faces.)

I know that a person's choices about where they go, what they do, can say a lot about who they are - but mostly I don't care about that. I care about who they are, how they treat others, how they live with dignity or not.

So I would never - and I do mean never - ask that hypothetical question to a Christian that you posed. And I don't know anyone who would. Not a single person. The people in my 'other world' couldn't care less about that (unless they saw them coming out of something generally agreed upon by society as questionable, like: a striptease club or a married person having sex with other people or stealing money or partying like a dog). During my assembly days I worried about that stuff a lot, now it seems like so much of a non-issue. What Christians get dissed about is their heart, or lack of it. Or when they blow it big and don't accept responsibility for it. Or when they are judgemental. Well, their politics, too, but that's a separate issue. Sometimes they get dissed for being goody-goody, but far less than I expected, and often done by people just trying to get attention by how tough and cool they are. Often Christians are praised. "They're good people, good neighbors. I like having my kids hang out with them." I've also had people recoil slightly - like when I told a friend my son was getting baptized. They didn't know I was "church folk". It was uncomfortable for a bit. But people adjust to that - they look at me with a different lens now, they have more questions. I tell them I haven't been involved with church for awhile, but my family is. I say this so they won't think my behavior is typical Christian. I don't want to spoil the name.

I hope this view from 'the other side' is helpful. What people want to see is heart, reality, truth. Their lives are so completely and utterly separated from Truth that it makes no impact whatsoever. Truth is an alien nation to them - weird, uncomfortable. It's been so distorted, too, by ourselves, by the media, by lies, mostly by ourselves. The only way to bridge the two worlds is action - heart, vulnerability that makes you stronger, helping, accepted as a friend even though they know and you know you both live in different worlds. That is what draws me. That and seeing the consequences of walking away from everything I ever valued (except my kids. They're the only things I held onto) But I'm different than them. I'm already a Christian. I've just lived in their world awhile. And it's a world that doesn't give a fig about what movie you see. They're so busy being lost and doing the best they can in that condition that it doesn't matter. What will I eat, what will I wear, how will I feed my family now that my job is gone, how will I deal with my crazy family/ex-boyfriend/school. These are the places they live. Most are not responsive to religion. They are extremely responsive to caring people.

Chuck, it wasn't my intention to beat you up for your hypothetical question. I hope you don't feel that way. I realize you weren't merely speaking of movies. I'm not either. It's a different world out there. Hoardes of people are dying here in America w/o knowing intimacy with Christ. I've often been frustrated that "church" is like putting a bandaid on a hemmoraging artery. What good can it do? But the only way is one person at a time. Acceptance, reaching out, practical love are the only things I've come up with to make that bandaid stretch a little further.

I'm limping along, not a 'practicing' Christian at this time, but I did want to share that memory in hopes that it helps. When I saw the videos I wanted that. I wanted that ability to be vulnerable, that ability to do wholesome stuff and have a good time in it, rather than sitting in a dark bar getting wasted and calling it fun. I wanted what they had.

Karey

[Oscar]

As Robert Govett so aptly expressed it,

“The fear of being led into Romish error has too much kept Christ's ministers from proclaiming the duty of good works; and from enforcing them with the motives which God has attached to the duty.  Put good works as the way to justification, and the means of earning eternal life, and 'tis deadly doctrine.  But speak of them as God's demand from those already justified, and possessors of eternal life; and there is no danger.  Nay, it is necessary that they should be enforced.”

This is nothing more than an arrogant AD HOMINEM attack on orthodox Christians.  His teaching was not rejected merely out of the "fear of Romish error" but out of a desire to "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints."  It was only ever received by a tiny minority of the Plymouth Brethren, who constiitute a tiny, tiny minority of the body. 

You are right Mark when you say, “We do not advance the cause of the Gospel by ‘making disciples’ in some kind of dishonest hype that promises super-spiritual attainment via our own actualization of our faith.”  The cause of the gospel is advanced by our being in constant communion with Christ and being led by the Spirit.  I’ve never  been too taken up by slogans and methods, but I wouldn’t find fault with the latest Christian WWJD (What would Jesus Do?) means of seeking His guidance.

It’s true, Jesus receives us  - “Just as I am,”  Then He admonishes us -  “Trust and Obey.”

I also appreciate the way that R.E. Neighbour differentiates between grace and rewards.

Grace is unmerited favor; Rewards are always merited.
Grace is a free gift; Rewards are wages.
Grace is without money and without price; Rewards cost labor and sacrifice.
Grace looks to God's faithfulness; Rewards look to the believer's faithfulness
Grace places us on the race course; Rewards lure us to "so run."
Grace introduces us into the games; Rewards urge us to "so fight."
Grace says, "Not by deeds of righteousness which we have done;" Reward says, "Well done thou good and faithful servant..." 
                                      
God bless,

Chuck

Chuck,

No one denies that there is a difference between that which comes to us by grace, such as being qualified to share in the inheritance of the saints in light, (Col. 1:12), and "rewards", which are usually described as "crowns".  These crowns are probably symbols that stand for some heavenly reality, but their exact meaning is not explained.  I doubt if they are simply pretty hats.  But this teacing attempts to shift important blessings of grace onto the ground of works.

In an earlier post you said:

I have also come to realize that I fall far short of living an overcoming life and I’m asking the Lord to teach me how to ”build my house upon the rock” (Matt 24).  That means hearing His words and acting upon them, and what better way to begin than to concentrate on His teaching from His sermon on the mount.  Perhaps, by His grace, I may again do the things I did at first and re-kindle that first love.  Please pray for me.

Why do you have such a strong desire to advocate a doctrinal stance that you yourself find unnatainable after many decades of Christian life?  This reminds me of Peter's statement in Acts 15:10, "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the discoples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?"  I know you are not teaching exactly the same thing that Peter is addressing, but he does point to the fact that they had all failed at it, just as you have.

Doesn't it seem a little strange to you that:
1. God does not seem to have told us exactly what the rules are?
2. No one I have ever heard of or read about was sure that they had actually obeyed the rules? (With the exception of George Geftakys!)
3. No one knows what a passing score is?  (Your position demands that the believer attain sinless perfection or that God must "grade" on a curve.)

Does this hymn sound like true Christian teaching?

My hope is built on nothing less than I have tried to do my best.
I know not that I've been approved, but I have tried my heart to move.
I've given it all of my best stuff, I only hope it's good enough.
On my obedience to Christ I stand, and that is really sinking sand, Oh that is truly sinking sand.

I sincerely believe that underneath this "overcomer" teaching there lies a root of elitist pride.   

I hope not....but in every case I have enountered it has come out sooner or later. 

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Rick wrote

Good questions Rick, but I haven’t gotten any answers to the questions I asked a couple of weeks ago, and later, even re-phrased to satisfy Tom.

Chuck

Chuck,

Here are the questions you asked:

(1) When does a believer become an overcomer?  Is it at the moment he believes on Jesus Christ for his salvation? 
(2) If so, then what happens when that one sins? (Surely you won’t contend that a believer will not sin, so what happens when he does?  Is he still an overcomerr? 
(3) What if he dies before confessing his sin?  Is he no longer an overcomer? 
(4) Will he still inherit the kingdom? 
(5) Will he still inherit eternal life?
(6) If he does not become an overcomer at the moment he believes, then when?

I do not believe these questions are about anything real.  They presuppose that there is a special class of believers that are called "overcomers" or "those who are overcoming" or something like that.  The Bible simply never says that.

Before anyone could answer the above questions he would first have to understand the exact description of the special class of believers that they refer to.
If there is no special class to belong to, questions about how one attains or loses their membership, or how they regain lost membership, are meaningless.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[Oscar]

Hello Tom,

I reread chap 23 of Dillow's book and am meditating on your points below.  In trying to understand what the atonement of our Savior accomplished,  how do you explain that I as a believer can be saved, but at the Judgment Seat I still might "suffer loss" (1 Cor 3:15), and I might still have to answer for "bad" things done in my body (2 Cor. 5:20)?

Blessings,

Rick Samuel

Rick,

Your question about I Cor 3:15 is puzzling.  No one on this BB has denied what this verse actually says.  It speaks of a testing of the quality of a man's works, and a reward or loss thereof.  This is not being debated.

What is being debated is whether or not things clearly granted by grace such as being eligible for the kingdom or being glorified with Christ are rewards.  The "overcomer" teaching claims that what is granted by grace can be lost.  This verse, however, says nothing about these things! 

It is only be circular reasoning that one can make this verse teach such a thing. 

Stay off the logical merry-go-round.  It muddles one's thinking.

As to 2 Cor. 5:10, (I think that is what you meant isn't it?), once again it is only by assuming that these things can be lost, (negative rewards!), can this verse be said to teach this. Yes, it does teach that we will "receive what is due us" for things we have done in the body, good or bad.  But our "due's" are not delineated.   It is only by assuming that they mean what you are attempting to prove that those things can be brought in at all.  This is the logical fallacy of "begging the question", ie, just plain circular reasoning.

BTW, the term "negative rewards" is an oxymoron.  If the results are negative, they can't be rewards.  If rewards, they can't be negative.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[vernecarty]

As I recall, I joined the topic in response to a query from Chuck regarding inheritance.
I have been trying to make the case that the Scriptural teaching on the question of inheritance is that inheritance is based on the twin pillars of relationship and promise and not on merit.
I have also suggested that the time of our inheritance (the when) is not so much time denominated as it is condition denominated.

What is that condition? - The believer's maturity!

It would seem to me if this is indeed the case, the most critical question that a believer can ask is what is the Biblical prescription for the believer's growth and maturity?
Unless one seriously considers this question, attempts to explain the admittedly substantially varying degrees to which Christians live effectively, will generally fall into serious error.
This error often takes the form of some kind of legalism and/or a misapplication of Scripture in an attempt to establish heirarchy of acceptance and approval of His children by God.
I had planned on posting as promised on the topic of nourishment and warfare but misplaced the file I was working on.
While I try and locate it, I will repost something I found that I must have posted sometime in the past, but which I think speaks to the issue. My apologies to those who have previously read it.



Sonship Part I

The position of the believer is sonship.
The implication is freedom. Sonship equals freedom. No principle of redemption is more important. While the New Testament uses the expression of adoption to describe the transaction, it starkly differs from its sociological counterpoint in that this is indeed a blood relationship! The above corollary is frequently presented to us in the Scripture:

What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?.  Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

Here is an equally important principle:
Absent sonship, present bondage. This is immutable.
What is meant with regard to freedom, as a result of the Christian’s position of sonship?
Is this just some rhetorical nicety?
It is clear that not all Christians exhibit any such freedom. Look at what George Geftakys and his enablers did to countless numbers of God’s blood bought people! The enslavement was as tragic as it was undeniable! What is the explanation for this remarkable anamoly?

Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

As bad as is the enslavement visited upon many by false teachers of all kinds, it is really symptomatic and illustrative of a more insidious kind of bondage as described for us in Romans 7.


But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

No less an eminent Christian than  Dr. D. Martin Lloyd Jones contends that the believer is not in consideration in this passage. Even apart from an appeal to Scripture, there is no serious child of God who had s not seen himself in Romans 7, no disrespect to Dr. Jones. Just  as the Socratic observation that experience flies in the face of the Platonic notion that a knowledge of the good results in its embrace, so the Christian experiences this conflict between the law of the mind and the law of his members. The propensity for evil is in no way forestalled by simply a knowledge of the good. Life bears undeniable witness.
Nonetheless, God’s Word is indeed clear. Our position is that of sonship. Therefore freedom should be our expectation and our experience - unless of course we remain in infancy…!

[vernecarty]

Sonship Part II

Let’s get serious. The thing that attracted many of us to Geftakys in the first place was the magical tale of glory that he spun. This pied piper piped a tune of a victorious, overcoming life, a securing of the full reward of our inheritance, attainment indeed to the first resurrection. – all the elements of being an “overcomer”. Who in their right spiritual minds would not desire these things? Our initial attraction is entirely understandable and forgivable. The question that should haunt everyone who remained in the clutches of this apostate should be:

“Why did I continue to believe that I could achieve these things by sitting under the ministry of a man who in no way exemplified them?”


The man’s vulgarity was commonly known to those around him, Why did the absence of Christlike-ness not cause more of us to examine ourselves? The absence of genuine spiritual liberty in the life of Geftakys should have raised a red flag in the mind of every observer. Despite his often forceful rhetoric, he lacked the power that matters most in the life of the believer, and absolutely marks him as someone in whom the life of God dwells.


 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 
2 Peter 2:18


The sad legacy is that service under this man’s auspices represented a life of bondage, antithetical to the liberty to which the child of God has been called. Geftakys marvelously illustrated the Biblical type of those exhibiting a form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof – the power to overcome their own sin.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,   Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.   Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2 Peter 3:5-9


This brings me to the reason for starting this thread. What is the evidence, both to the heart and mind of the believer, as well as to those who observe him, that he is experiencing this liberty of sonship we speak of, this power of godliness referenced by the apostle Peter?


He breaks the power of cancelled sin
Hes sets the prisoner free
His blood can make the foulest clean
His blood availed for me!

Verne

p.s. can' find that file... guess I will have to start from scratch...although I imagine some of you know where I was going with the idea of nourishment..

[Chuck Miller]

To all,

For those of you who missed reading Mark C’s post on November 23, 2005 under the BB Topic  “its nice to be one of the elite superovercomers,” I’m posting it here for your consideration with a quote from another post..

Mark wrote:

Hi All!

   I think Tom has done a very good job answering the "overcomer" questions from the bible.  You can't approach this question by pulling out a text here and there as a proof text for you will ignore other one's that contradict the point you are trying to prove.

   Tom shows the importance of developing a consistent theology from the entire revealed text vs. the proof text method we learned so well under GG. 

  I will confess to one and all that I tried my very best to be the most pure, committed, surrendered, yielded, dead to self, denying myself etc. (all by faith in God's grace, btw) believer that I could be, however----- I never improved my actual character one little bit as I attempted to assainate my sinful old man!

  I can actually prove that it made me a much worse person in my vain attempt.  It was like a religious version of binging and purging (bulimia/anorexia) where a good thing (losing weight) becomes very unhealthy.  I also have a huge store of biograhies of others that proves this same point.

  In the Assembly (as I pursued excellence) I was so "humble" I let people I knew who were lying walk all over me and watched in silence while God's little children were abused!!!

 Christ like??!!   In Christ??!!  In The Spirit??!!  Oh Brother!

 I have discovered that I am very, very, far away from expressing the actual love of God (the pinnacle of God's holy nature) and if there is anything in my actual experience that demonstrates even a small part of this I can only thank God's grace.

  If we follow a teaching that makes us proud, rude, cruel, unloving, vindictive, malicious etc. maybe we ought to get the idea that we are not on the right track?

   A recovering alcoholic following the 12 step program (for the third time) is much closer to God than somebody like GG who thinks he's one of the elitle superovercomers that is the subject of this thread.

                     God bless those that know they need it!   Mark C.

**********************

I have copied this other quote frrom Mark's post on BB Topic  Forget & Forgive? on: November 26, 2005, 12:57:37 pm

Mark wrote:

 "When I first received Christ, all alone and having never heard of the Assembly, there was a fundamental and truly demonstrable change in my life."

[Elizabeth H]

Tom,

I really enjoyed your last couple of posts. This whole Overcomer/Rewards/Inheritance issue really strikes a nerve with me. I guess you know why. Your posts were truly helpful.

What keeps a Christian living the Christian life? Is it the prospect of rewards "luring" him on? This seems like a questionable motive.

We follow God because we love God, right? Not because we're hoping to score big on the mansions, crowns & crystal-sea-front property!?

E.

[Oscar]

Tom,

I really enjoyed your last couple of posts. This whole Overcomer/Rewards/Inheritance issue really strikes a nerve with me. I guess you know why. Your posts were truly helpful.

What keeps a Christian living the Christian life? Is it the prospect of rewards "luring" him on? This seems like a questionable motive.

We follow God because we love God, right? Not because we're hoping to score big on the mansions, crowns & crystal-sea-front property!?

E.

E,

Right you are.  If the prospect of scoring big in the rewards lotto is really our motivation for serving God, why doesn't the Bible just say so?  Instead, it contains passages like John 14:15, "If you love me, keep my commandments."  Did Jesus have it wrong?  I don't think so.

Using punishments and rewards as modifiers of behavior belong to the childhood stage of life.  We all used this with our kids.  The Bible says that the husband/wife relationship is illustrative of the church's relationship with Christ.  Love and care are the motivators, not fear and desire for gain. In marriage we do gain much, and could lose much by careless or selfish treatment of the beloved.  But these motives, while real, could not possibly be an adequate foundation for a healthy, God honoring marriage.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[Chuck Miller]

Tom  Maddux wrote:

"If the prospect of scoring big in the rewards lotto is really our motivation for serving God, why doesn't the Bible just say so? "

Psalm 19"7-11
 7The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
         The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
    8The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
         The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
         The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
    10They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
         Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
    11Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
         In keeping them there is great reward.

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Hebrews 10:34-36
 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Hebrews 11:25-27
 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

Revelation 11:18
"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

40 years of study, Tom?

God bless,

Chuck Miller