Forget & Forgive?

[Mark C.]

Chuck,

   Please explain why you quoted me in the way that you did.  What point are you trying to make?  I ask, because I only can guess at what your intention was, and would like to respond.

                                                 God bless,  Mark C.

[Chuck Miller]

Mark,

You wrote:

Chuck,

   Please explain why you quoted me in the way that you did.  What point are you trying to make?  I ask, because I only can guess at what your intention was, and would like to respond.

                                                 God bless,  Mark C.

Read Joe's reply #126 on November 23rd and Elizabeth's reply #127 on November 23rd,  then re-read yours.  I'll  be posting further comment later.

God bless,

Chuck

[Oscar]

Tom  Maddux wrote:

Psalm 19"7-11
 7The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
         The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
    8The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
         The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
         The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.
    10They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
         Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
    11Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
         In keeping them there is great reward.

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Hebrews 10:34-36
 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Hebrews 11:25-27
 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

Revelation 11:18
"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

40 years of study, Tom?

God bless,

Chuck Miller

Chuck,

It would seem that you are under the impression that I do not believe in rewards.  Since I have clearly stated that I do, I don't understand why you are doing this. 

The issue we have been discussing is not the reality of rewards and their possible loss. No one has posted anything that argues that this is not taught in the Bible.  It is about whether or not things clearly bestowed by grace fall into this class at all. None of the verses you have quoted address this.  If you have a few verses that clearly state that they do, you might wish to post them.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[soul dreamer]

Hello Tom and others who are following this discussion,

We agree that I as a saved person may suffer the loss of reward (and the Greek word for “suffer” in 1 Cor 3:15 denotes painful loss).  The question is, “What is given to us irrevocably from God, and what can be lost?  Can this loss occur to some measure with respect to a believer’s “inheritance” from God?”  Well, since the apostle Paul uses the word “recompense” (“reward” in the KJV) with respect to the inheritance in Col. 3:24-25, I think, yes, there is an aspect of my inheritance that could be lost.  There is an aspect that is not automatically given to me as a gift of grace.  May each of us fully possess our inheritance.

I believe entrance into the kingdom of heaven is given irrevocably to us believers as a gift of God’s grace – an “inheritance” secured by the Savior’s blood (Heb. 9:15).  So there is an irrevocable aspect to the inheritance.  But Peter speaks of having an abundant entrance dependent upon our works (2 Pet 1:11), thus making out “calling and election sure.”  Paul prays that each of us comes into the full measure of the stature of Christ – it is not automatic. 

Let me plainly state what aspect of the inheritance I believe may be lost: it is varying measures of reigning with Christ.    To the measure that we endured with Him, to that measure we shall also reign with Him” (see 2 Tim. 2:12).   

“And to the one overcoming, and keeping my works unto the end, to him will I giving authority over the nations: And he shall be shepherding them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be crushed: as I also have obtained from my Father. And I will be giving him the morning star” (Rev. 2:26-28).

Why am I posting these considerations?  Because in Hebrews we told to exhort one another daily, and that we should serve God with fear, because He is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29).

On the one hand, if we are abiding in Him, then perfect love casts out all fear.  However, if I am not abiding in Him, then there is the possibility that I shall shrink back at owning my name at His judgment seat (1 John 2:28).  Though the Lord Jesus is the Royal Bridegroom who courts His bridal church, still one of His final encouragements to us is, “Behold, I come swiftly, and My wage [“reward” in the KJV] is with Me, to pay each one as his work is” (Rev. 22:12).

Blessings,

Rick

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

You wrote:

Chuck,

It would seem that you are under the impression that I do not believe in rewards.  Since I have clearly stated that I do, I don't understand why you are doing this. 

The issue we have been discussing is not the reality of rewards and their possible loss. No one has posted anything that argues that this is not taught in the Bible.  It is about whether or not things clearly bestowed by grace fall into this class at all. None of the verses you have quoted address this.  If you have a few verses that clearly state that they do, you might wish to post them.

If you will tell me what are these “things clearly bestowed by grace,“  I’ll be able to understand and respond to your statement, Tom.

Chuck

[Mark C.]

Hi Chuck!

  I've read the posts that you mentioned and my own, and think that I might have an idea re. the point you are trying to make, but it might be better if you just came out and plainly say what's on your mind.

  I realize you have a lot of people who are talking with you here and I don't mean to be rude by saying the above.

                             Thanks, and God bless,  Mark C.

[Chuck Miller]

To Mark etal,

I was curious as to whether anyone would comment on Mark’s post of November 23rd, since he was quite adamant in insisting that he was NOT “Christ like” - NOT “in Christ” - NOT “in the Spirit” when he was pursuing excellence in the Assembly.   I couldn’t have made the point any better than Mark has done inadvertently.  Oddly, none of those who contend that believers are always “in Christ”  seemed to be bothered by Mark’s comment, or at least, not enough to comment on it. 

Take note that Mark said that  "When I first received Christ, all alone and having never heard of the Assembly, there was a fundamental and truly demonstrable change in my life."  So, he was obviously what some have called a “genuine” Christian at that time. 

I venture to say that each of us has experienced that noticeably changed life when we came to know Christ.  And I would assume that this “first love” spurred you, as it did me,  to try to live in obedience to His commands.

Then, we who became “saints” in George’s Assembly were encouraged to pursue a pseudo-spirituality that was based upon “doing things” (I.e. all nights of prayer, witnessing in the park, extended “quiet time,”  participating in LB orchestrated worship services, etc., etc., etc.). I remember my very first encounter with “Brother George.”  He told several of us who were meeting in our home church group that in order to be “Godly brothers” we must spend time studying, praying, witnessing, and meeting with other committed Christians.  These things - that we had already been doing out of a simple desire to know and serve Christ - these now became an obligatory exercise in spirituality under George’s watchful and critical eye. Those who complied with unquestioning obedience were qualified to be “workers” as an acknowledgement of George‘s approval. Perhaps, because of my early deoparture, I never qualified.  And, oh yes,  for some unexplained reason, we were expected to address him,  not as “George“, but as, “Brother George“

Well, many of us eventually found out what Mark discovered and suffered the consequences of a sterile Spirit-less Christian life.  No doubt that there were those who maintained a genuine devotion to Christ during their time of bondage, but more often than not, we succumbed to the pressure of conforming to the image of the “gawdly” saint in the Geftakys Assembly. Oh, yes, there were even those who tried to speak and pray like George.  With some, pleasing George seemed to take precedence over pleasing Christ.

Like Mark, any thought of this life having been a life “in Christ,” or “Christ like,” or being “in the Spirit” became repulsive.  These deeds were “fleshly”  not spiritual, and yet, it was not entirely and perpetually so.  Every so often, I would find relief in my unstructured time of prayer, study, or witnessing, that led me to question the teachings of the so-called “Lord’s Servant.”  Eventually, the inner pressure that the Lord was applying, began to overcome the external pressure of conformity, and eventually it led to my exodus. When I left the Assembly, there was the tremendous relief of being released from the pressure of a life of counterfeit spirituality, and once again experiencing the  joy and peace that had accompanied my pre-Assembly days.

So, what I have been trying to convey (unsuccessfully, it seems) is that being “in Christ,” or “Christ like,” or being “in the Spirit”  can be a temporary state of being that has no effect on my eternal life, but may have a very positive influence in how I live my life and the “reward” for doing so. I make no apology for the word “rewards,“ nor for being motivated by them, and would only like to say one more thing about it.

The greatest reward that I know of is to feel God’s pleasure.  It is beyond the realm of comparison with anything we experience in the secular realm.  The only thing that even remotely compares, is the pleasure we feel when our earthly father commends us for a job well done.  I can well imagine that it is the only thing that sustains the Christians suffering persecution and torture for Jesus.  I believe they feel His pleasure.

I cannot believe that anyone who has ever known His pleasure, would regard God’s reward with a cavalier attitude of being above such motivation. I find it hard to believe that such a one has ever known God’s pleasure. It is the greatest motivation for doing His work, and in His kindness He allows us to experience it from time to time.  Would anything compare to His constant pleasure?  To know, like Paul, that - “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing” - for Paul to know that with such confidence could only come from feeling God’s pleasure and assurance.  Keep in mind that an award is merited. Paul wasn’t saying that his eternal salvation was merited.  Let each of you discern then, what Paul was saying. 

Unfortunately (or fortunately), when I temporarily lapse from walking in a manner worthy of the God who calls us into His own kingdom and glory (1 Thessalonians 2:12), I subject myself to the application of His discipline.  And though it may seem harsh at the time, when viewed retrospectively it reveals the wisdom and mercy of His ways.  His purpose for disciplining us is to restore us to walking in His ways.  For He says, "If you love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15)


"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven"           Matthew 5:16

God bless,

Chuck

[mithrandir]

As I recall, this whole discussion re. rewards and position in Christ began because someone tried to use the threat of loss of reward to motivate the rest of us to follow some questionable advice regarding going to ex-Assembly leaders to confess our "bitterness."  I hate to say it, but that advice and some of the statements made since then remind me very much of Assembly teaching.  If my tone or attitude are a bit too heavy, please let me know. But for me, my theology is a work in progress right now, and it's my work.  We don't need to prepare a word of ministry for each other on this thread, but rather, it's more helpful for people to discuss how they are recovering from the Assembly, in my opinion (for what it's worth).  Btw, I'm not saying that doctrinal discussions are bad.  It's just that I don't think this is the right thread for that.

And I see a potential danger in discussing doctrine.  In the Assembly, we (especially us U.S. Males) were trained to defend, dissect and dish out doctrine as a means of forcing others to adopt our point of view.  I know I was good at this.  We made points and made stands that we considered non-negotiable, and defended them almost to the death.  Why did we do it?  Because we were trained to think that by this we were defending the one true faith.  I think (but I don't want to be dogmatic) that perhaps we need to lighten up a little...

Clarence Thompson

[vernecarty]

Hello Tom and others who are following this discussion,

  Well, since the apostle Paul uses the word “recompense” (“reward” in the KJV) with respect to the inheritance in Col. 3:24-25, I think, yes, there is an aspect of my inheritance that could be lost.  There is an aspect that is not automatically given to me as a gift of grace.  May each of us fully possess our inheritance.


Blessings,

Rick

The use of the word translated "reward" in Colossians 3:24 in association with inheritance is unique in the Greek text and indeed a very interesting passage to note in view of the present discussion. "Reward" everywhere else is misthos, eg. Matthew 5:12; Rev. 22:12
This is a great example of the power of principle in helping us to arrive at correct answers to these kinds of questions. Thoughtful observation Rick.
Verne

[Oscar]

Hello Tom and others who are following this discussion,

We agree that I as a saved person may suffer the loss of reward (and the Greek word for “suffer” in 1 Cor 3:15 denotes painful loss).  The question is, “What is given to us irrevocably from God, and what can be lost?  Can this loss occur to some measure with respect to a believer’s “inheritance” from God?”  Well, since the apostle Paul uses the word “recompense” (“reward” in the KJV) with respect to the inheritance in Col. 3:24-25, I think, yes, there is an aspect of my inheritance that could be lost.  There is an aspect that is not automatically given to me as a gift of grace.  May each of us fully possess our inheritance.

Rick,

I Corinthians 3:15 speaks of a man's life work being tested as to its quality.  If "what he has built survives, he will receive his reward."  If it is burned up, he will suffer loss.  He loses what he has built, and any reward due him for that work.  It is talking about rewards, not inheritance.  His works were destroyed, so there is nothing to reward. The passage says absolutely nothing about losing something you already possess.

Colossians 3:22-25 is talking about slaves serving their masters as "...working for the Lord, not for men, since you know you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward."  Paul's argument is not, "work hard for your master and the Lord will reward your work with an inheritance."  Paul's arguemnt is "serve God faithfully where you are in the confidence  that God sees you and us going to do something for you that is far better than any earthly master".  The passage also says that "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong."  However, it does not say that the repayment will be in heaven.  I could just as well mean discipline in this life.  It also does not say that the "repayment" will be a loss of the inheritance.  You are reading tht into the passage.

I believe entrance into the kingdom of heaven is given irrevocably to us believers as a gift of God’s grace – an “inheritance” secured by the Savior’s blood (Heb. 9:15).  So there is an irrevocable aspect to the inheritance.  But Peter speaks of having an abundant entrance dependent upon our works (2 Pet 1:11), thus making out “calling and election sure.”  Paul prays that each of us comes into the full measure of the stature of Christ – it is not automatic. 

Let me plainly state what aspect of the inheritance I believe may be lost: it is varying measures of reigning with Christ.    To the measure that we endured with Him, to that measure we shall also reign with Him” (see 2 Tim. 2:12).   

Which version are you quoting?

Rick, I would like to point out a couple of passages that tell us what we receive by grace.

Romans 5:17 "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."

Reigning in life with Christ is based on two things: 1. Receiveing God's abundant provision of Grace. 2. Receiving the gift of righteousness.  In other words, being saved.

Revelation 20:5 "...this is the first resurrection.  Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.  The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."  In V11-15 it describes the second death.  "The lake of fire is the second death."

If you compare these passages with I Thessalonians 3:13-18 it is clear that "the dead in Christ will rise first."  All the "dead in Christ" will "have part in the first resurrection", and all who have part in that first resurrection will reign with Christ and "be with the Lord forever."

Rick, a sound and widely received principle of Biblical interpretation is that unclear passages are to be interpreted in light of clear passages.  I am well aware that there are things in the Bible that are "hard to be understood".  But much is very clear.  Among the very clear things is that the saved will reign with Christ.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[Oscar]

Chuck,

The greatest reward that I know of is to feel God’s pleasure.  It is beyond the realm of comparison with anything we experience in the secular realm.  The only thing that even remotely compares, is the pleasure we feel when our earthly father commends us for a job well done.  I can well imagine that it is the only thing that sustains the Christians suffering persecution and torture for Jesus.  I believe they feel His pleasure.

I cannot believe that anyone who has ever known His pleasure, would regard God’s reward with a cavalier attitude of being above such motivation. I find it hard to believe that such a one has ever known God’s pleasure. It is the greatest motivation for doing His work, and in His kindness He allows us to experience it from time to time.

Where does the Bible teach that we can "feel God's pleasure?"

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

I had just finished writing a response to one of your previous posts when I received this latest one.
You wrote:

Where does the Bible teach that we can "feel God's pleasure?"

 I guess I hadn't fully realized that 18 years of following a man coiuld create such a vacuum in a Christian's life.   For what purpose it will serve to discuss these things any further, I have my doubts, but, anyway, here it is.

You wrote:

I do not believe these questions are about anything real.  They presuppose that there is a special class of believers that are called "overcomers" or "those who are overcoming" or something like that.  The Bible simply never says that.

Before anyone could answer the above questions he would first have to understand the exact description of the special class of believers that they refer to.
If there is no special class to belong to, questions about how one attains or loses their membership, or how they regain lost membership, are meaningless.

Tom, you don’t seem to have any problem calling one who believes; a “believer,” or one who sins; a “sinner,’ or one who deceives; a “deceiver."   Why do you have a problem with calling one who overcomes, an “overcomer?”   And why do invent a word  such as “undercomer“ to indicate your disagreement with the doctrine.  Do you call one who does not overhear an“underhearer,” or one who does not overeat an “under-eater.   I know that you are using “undercomer” tongue-in-cheek, but it looses it’s whimsicality in the seriousness of its implication.  For if an under-achiever is the opposite of an over-achiever, aren’t you implying that you are the opposite of an overcomer.  Careless words, Tom.

Paul classified some Christians as “carnal,” or, “men of flesh,” as opposed to spiritual (1 Cor 3:1), and Jesus classified those “who overcome” as opposed to those who don’t.  So, I believe the questions are about “real” issues, Tom.  But I won’t ask them again.  Let any who read this decide in their own mind. 

YOU STATE:

“If there is no special class to belong to, questions about how one attains or loses their membership, or how they regain lost membership, are meaningless.”

 But inasmuch as you have asserted that all believers are overcomers,  the question of how they attained that membership or how they regain lost membership are germane to the discussion.

God bless,
 
Chuck

P.S.  But  now, I see no benefit in pursuing this any further with you Tom.

[outdeep]

It seems to me that the emotional reaction to the word "overcomer" is when it is applied as a certain class of Christians who passes a certain criteria and thus enters into certain gospel privileges (marriage supper of the lamb, the rapture, seeing God, heaven) that other Christians, who have mere "bare bones" salvation, do not enter into.

If the word "overcomer" is used to describe what an individual has personally accomplished through God's provision, I think the term is fine.

In the book of Revelation, most churches were confronted with a problem that they had to overcome if they were going to continue as a legitimate church.  Ephesis needed to overcome by returning to their first love.  Smyrna had to stand fast in persecution.  Thyatira had to deal with an influential false "prophetess" in their midst that was unchecked. 

I don't read these verses as saying, If Ephesis returns to their first love, they will enter into an elete group of Christians who will be invited to the marriage supper of the lamb.  Thus, if we meet the criteria of "overcomers" we will be there, too.

I see this as a historical exhoration to the church to get their act together.   Some didn't and the church eventually folded.  So also, a Christain may be called to overcome by dealing with their sin of laziness or sexual lust (or whatever issue the Word reveals).  By overcoming, I don't become a part of the elite that gets taken up in the rapture or get to live inside heaven as opposed to a shack just outside by the gate where the non-overcomers live.  However, by not doing so, I lose out because I mar my testimony and my effectiveness for Christ.  My loss is that I have less to show for my efforts in the last day.

[M2]

As I recall, this whole discussion re. rewards and position in Christ began because someone tried to use the threat of loss of reward to motivate the rest of us to follow some questionable advice regarding going to ex-Assembly leaders to confess our "bitterness."  I hate to say it, but that advice and some of the statements made since then remind me very much of Assembly teaching.  If my tone or attitude are a bit too heavy, please let me know. But for me, my theology is a work in progress right now, and it's my work.  We don't need to prepare a word of ministry for each other on this thread, but rather, it's more helpful for people to discuss how they are recovering from the Assembly, in my opinion (for what it's worth).  Btw, I'm not saying that doctrinal discussions are bad.  It's just that I don't think this is the right thread for that.

And I see a potential danger in discussing doctrine.  In the Assembly, we (especially us U.S. Males) were trained to defend, dissect and dish out doctrine as a means of forcing others to adopt our point of view.  I know I was good at this.  We made points and made stands that we considered non-negotiable, and defended them almost to the death.  Why did we do it?  Because we were trained to think that by this we were defending the one true faith.  I think (but I don't want to be dogmatic) that perhaps we need to lighten up a little...

Clarence Thompson

Hi Clarence,

No offense intended, but each one is free to make one's own conclusions from what is discussed here.  I usually treat what I read here and elsewhere as information that I am free to draw my own conclusions about.  e.g. while I disagree with Chuck's suggestion to all to confess bitterness to assembly leaders, his post of November 28, 2005, 06:32:33 pm is an excellent testimony of his/our assembly experience.

Discussing doctrine helps us to renew our thinking on various Scripture passages and themes.  IMO I do not see any reason that we cannot discuss both ie the doctrine, and the post-assembly recovery process.

All,

GA.com has posted some Quotations on Rewards: www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/BiblicalExposition/QuotationsOnRewards.htm

re. Tom, I see that Chuck has now come to the same conclusion that some of us had a few months ago.

My take on rewards, good healthy friendships are rewarding.  Life experiences teach that to us.  Do I love the Lord because it will be rewarding, or do I love the Lord and that love relationship is/will be rewarding?

Marcia

[vernecarty]

Chuck,

Where does the Bible teach that we can "feel God's pleasure?"

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

It was a great line by Eric Liddell in one of my favorite movies...
Verne