The God Grab Bag

[frank]

yeah, when i heard about NO, one of my thoughts was along these lines. some fanatics will sieze on this and point at the french quarter (which is still standing) as the sinful source of god's judgement. but what about all the small towns that got hit much harder by the hurricane along 50 miles of coastline in mississippi? were they more sinful than the french quarter, since they were demolished and it is still standing? religious fervor often makes ignoring facts fun and easy.

brian

Similarly, unbelievers have drawn the same kinds of conclusions to "God's judgment" throughout history, Brian, as you have here.  I am not saying that "the facts" do point to the judgment of sin in the Hurricane K. example, but "the facts" (evidence) has betrayed things that are known through faith and spiritual enlightenment alone throughout all time....according to God's word.  Right? or Wrong?

Did Pharaoh receive judgment from God becuse of his resistance to God's commands to free His people and move in fear to comply or did he just see horrific situations that related to climate, infestations, etc.? 

The natural mind wants to dismiss that God is alive and active and that there are consequences to wickedness whereas the mind of the spirit, supported by the scriptures, believes that God does judge wickedness...that God is working.

God's laws are in place.  When decadence flourishes, the Word tells us that according to God's laws, nature will providentially strike out against it according to the councils of God. I believe that there is a heavenly heirarchy and administration that rules over the earth and yes, I believe there are consequences that come into play at times, especially when the Holy Spirit among God's people is grieved.  Otherwise, the whole earth is under protection and grace.  I believe there is war in the heavens and that the demonic and powers of darkness are doing all they can do to influence darkness and the advancement of wickesness among the wicked.  They were doing a pretty good job of it in NO as I understand it.

With regard to selective judgment, it is inconceivable that a Hurricane would pick and choose certain towns and certain houses like a giant hand -  since it doesn't have a mind...therefore the innocent are effected along with the wicked.  Noah was told to "get out" and so were the NO people.  Even still, it is quite possible that those who were innocently misplaced or hurt could be in a better state after the Hurricane since God can cause all things to work for good for those who love Him and trust in Him.   

Unbelievers have little understanding of God and God's ways because they only believe what they see and what they understand with natural mind through logic and analysis just as you have in your analysis.  I'm not trying to shame anyone, but I think you have spoken with such authority and Sinicismthat it sounds like a mock of a "christian" point of view.  I only answer with equal authoritative knowledge through faith and spiritual knowledge of the scriptures.

frank

p.s.  Somehow I get the impression that you probably aren't very interested in conversing on this subject, Brian, but that you are just throwing the ball back out so the kids will start playing again.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I hope I am.  What makes me think this?  You do not post on this board unless there's a problem.  I took the bait anyway, because I am interested in showing how faith in God relates to the topic.  Without faith it is impossible to please God.

If I'm wrong and you are genuinely interested in this discussion, even if you are in strong disagreement with my perspective, I am more than willing to have a discussion.

 

[hopon]

Similarly, unbelievers have drawn the same kinds of conclusions to "God's judgment" throughout history, Brian, as you have here.  I am not saying that "the facts" do point to the judgment of sin in the Hurricane K. example, but "the facts" (evidence) has betrayed things that are known through faith and spiritual enlightenment alone throughout all time....according to God's word.  Right? or Wrong?

Did Pharaoh receive judgment from God becuse of his resistance to God's commands to free His people and move in fear to comply or did he just see horrific situations that related to climate, infestations, etc.? 

The natural mind wants to dismiss that God is alive and active and that there are consequences to wickedness whereas the mind of the spirit, supported by the scriptures, believes that God does judge wickedness...that God is working.

God's laws are in place.  When decadence flourishes, the Word tells us that according to God's laws, nature will providentially strike out against it according to the councils of God. I believe that there is a heavenly heirarchy and administration that rules over the earth and yes, I believe there are consequences that come into play at times, especially when the Holy Spirit among God's people is grieved.  Otherwise, the whole earth is under protection and grace.  I believe there is war in the heavens and that the demonic and powers of darkness are doing all they can do to influence darkness and the advancement of wickesness among the wicked.  They were doing a pretty good job of it in NO as I understand it.

With regard to selective judgment, it is inconceivable that a Hurricane would pick and choose certain towns and certain houses like a giant hand -  since it doesn't have a mind...therefore the innocent are effected along with the wicked.  Noah was told to "get out" and so were the NO people.  Even still, it is quite possible that those who were innocently misplaced or hurt could be in a better state after the Hurricane since God can cause all things to work for good for those who love Him and trust in Him.   

Unbelievers have little understanding of God and God's ways because they only believe what they see and what they understand with natural mind through logic and analysis just as you have in your analysis.  I'm not trying to shame anyone, but I think you have spoken with such authority and Sinicismthat it sounds like a mock of a "christian" point of view.  I only answer with equal authoritative knowledge through faith and spiritual knowledge of the scriptures.

frank

I agree with you, nfrankie, and whether it's bait or not, it needs to be said. I'm glad you responded.

The verse that comes to my mind in all this is Romans 8:22 (those offended, please excuse me)

  "For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. verse 23: And not only THEY, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ................redemption of our body."

Creation recognizes God (take the calls to creatures and creation to worship God, in the Psalms) and His direction.

It seems creation is also affected by sin.  We were not created for sin and neither was the planet and its forces.

I'd like to add one more thing, showing the humility of a Christian Lutheran pastor whose school I worked at at one time. When we were discussing a similar type of situation, the specifics of which I forgot, his comment was, "Maybe God is telling everyone, 'Come back. Come back to me'. "

I believe this is true for today.

hoppingoff

[brian]

I am not saying that "the facts" do point to the judgment of sin in the Hurricane K. example,

this we agree on.

but "the facts" (evidence) has betrayed things that are known through faith and spiritual enlightenment alone throughout all time....according to God's word.  Right? or Wrong?

right in your personal case, wrong when generalized to everyone. your faith adds a lot of interpretation to the facts, and draws conclusions that could never be drawn from the facts alone. i think we agree on this as well.

most of what you say here is a complicated attempt to interpret a great human tragedy in a way that fits with your worldview. it works for you, but i am not motivated to go through all those interpretive gymnastics because i am not defending the same worldview you are.

if i had to summarize the "christian" perspective from most of the christians i have talked to, it is along the lines of "the tremendous human suffering taking place in our country is breaking my heart - here is how i am planning to help." that is practical faith, and it is a noble response.

brian

[Elizabeth H]

most of what you say here is a complicated attempt to interpret a great human tragedy in a way that fits with your worldview. it works for you, but i am not motivated to go through all those interpretive gymnastics because i am not defending the same worldview you are.

if i had to summarize the "christian" perspective from most of the christians i have talked to, it is along the lines of "the tremendous human suffering taking place in our country is breaking my heart - here is how i am planning to help." that is practical faith, and it is a noble response.

i used to do this a lot. whenever something "bad" happened, i would feel compelled to give an 'answer for the hope within me' instead of offering a helping hand. trouble was, my pontifications were equal to saying "be warmed and filled" and then shutting the door in their face.

but DO something to help and your faith speaks for itself in a language universally understood.

as i see it, when i stand before God He's not going to ask me to share my three-point outline on why bad things happen to good people. probably I'm going to be ashamed at how little I actually DID to help.

btw, good to see you back here brian. thanks for stepping back into the "asylum."   

[frank]

this we agree on.

right in your personal case, wrong when generalized to everyone. your faith adds a lot of interpretation to the facts, and draws conclusions that could never be drawn from the facts alone. i think we agree on this as well.

most of what you say here is a complicated attempt to interpret a great human tragedy in a way that fits with your worldview. it works for you, but i am not motivated to go through all those interpretive gymnastics because i am not defending the same worldview you are.

if i had to summarize the "christian" perspective from most of the christians i have talked to, it is along the lines of "the tremendous human suffering taking place in our country is breaking my heart - here is how i am planning to help." that is practical faith, and it is a noble response.

brian

Brian,

Would the "worldview" you are speaking of be Capitalized?  In other words, do you follow the perspective of the "Worldview" religion ?  Just curious.  Your perspective does sound sort of "universal?"

This is the one I'm referring to:  http://www.world-view.org/

i used to do this a lot. whenever something "bad" happened, i would feel compelled to give an 'answer for the hope within me' instead of offering a helping hand. trouble was, my pontifications were equal to saying "be warmed and filled" and then shutting the door in their face.

Is it necessarily either/or? 

....
as i see it, when i stand before God He's not going to ask me to share my three-point outline on why bad things happen to good people. probably I'm going to be ashamed at how little I actually DID to help.

...the widow's mite was considered a good gift and was received without condemnation.

Having said this, Elizabeth, I think that the general Christian community tends toward the opposite of what you and I were taught in the Assembly.  It is taught to give of material goods and help in churches.  To "give the answer of hope" is not stressed much at all.  It is my experience that many church folks consequently are afraid or ashamed ?? to witness of "their hope in Christ." 

I think it's both, but it is good, as a believer, to put a Name to the face of giving....if the giving is being done out of the life of Christ within. I don't care for the "bible thumping" style of giving an answer.  I like to give a very quiet, humble, simple word of hope and leave it at that unless someone indicates they are hungry for another bite.

frank

[Joe Sperling]

"Well Prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now just family estates of the Bonapartes. But I warn
you, if you don't tell me that this means war, if you still try to define the infamies and horrors
perpetrated by that anti-christ--I really believe he is the anti-christ--I will have nothing more to
do with you and you are no longer my friend, no longer my faithful slave, as you call yourself!
But how do you do? I see I have frightened you--sit down and tell me all the news".

-----I have always felt a deep inner need to post the whole book of "War and Peace" by Leo Tolstoy,
and know that all of you will enjoy my doing so. The above is just the first paragraph of a book with over
200 chapters, and thousands of paragraphs. But I intend to post them all---whether you like it or
not. I just like posting--pages and pages and pages of posts including many trivial things---but I
know you will all stay glued like a fly to flypaper to all of it. It doesn't matter that the book is in the
library and you could go read it yourself there---I want to post it here--and I will,  whether you like
it or not.

Tomorrow, paragraph two of the first chapter of "War and Peace" by Leo Tolstoy, and several more,
depending on how much time I have. I know you'll want to spend the hours reading these valuable posts. I know they will take up a lot of room, but it will all be well worth it, believe me.

--Joe

BAD poster! *slapslapslap*

your friendly neighborhood moderator,

brian

[Oscar]

Frank,

I rather suspect that Brian is not into Tibetan Buddhism, which is what the group you linked teaches.

Everyone has a worldview, either implicit or explicit.  It involves our ideas of what is real, true, right or wrong, and how the world/universe works.

Your ideas on the NO hurricane/flood and evil reflect your worldview.  When I read your post I thought of something that happened in my adult Sunday school class a few years back.

Seems the missions chairlady was gleefully reporting how the big Buddhist festival they were having on Taiwan had been rained out by record level rainfall.   She drew the same conclusions you did.

A couple of weeks earlier a tornado had hit a Baptist church on Sunday morning in (I think) Tennessee.  A bunch of Baptists were killed, including some infants and toddlers.  It had been in the news so everyone knew what had happened.

I asked her if the Baptists had sinned and that's why God sent the tornado.  Needless to say that idea did not fit well into the view of things she had espoused a few minutes earlier.   

In case you don't know, tornados can be pretty specific as to what they hit.  They frequently "hop" and only touch down for brief periods.  Surely a universe creating God could have made it hop over the church building and miss the Baptists, you would think.

So how do you know that it was the evil in NO that brought the hurricane?  Especially since the worst part of the hurricane missed NO entirely. 

Perhaps God was trying to kill someone who had criticized George Geftakys and lived near Biloxi, Miss.  NO might have been one of the unfortunate cities who were just too near.

In addition, how does your purported "law" work in light of Jonah 4:11.

Thomas Maddux

[brian]

Brian,

Would the "worldview" you are speaking of be Capitalized? In other words, do you follow the perspective of the "Worldview" religion ? Just curious. Your perspective does sound sort of "universal?"

This is the one I'm referring to: http://www.world-view.org/

you're asking if i am a tibetan buddhist? nope.
i was using worldview in the way tom talks about - the spectacles you peer at the universe through, the way you believe everything fits together.

[Tony]

Joe,   You wish to post the  entire book "War and Peace?

Could this be an answered prayer?  ...For my mailman...He has suffered two hernias trying to bring me the book in braille.   On second thought...our moderator is a slapper!

--Tony"

[frank]

Frank,

I rather suspect that Brian is not into Tibetan Buddhism, which is what the group you linked teaches.

I would have thought that Brian, an unbeliever in Christ, could have answered the question, Tom.  I specifically asked Brian.  Brian is not only not a Christian, I believe he is a Universalist...and that is what that particular website and it's associated 'religion' is based upon.  They accept ALL FAITHS and Brian's perspective in his post as well as his reference to "worldview" came across to me as the view of a "Universalist."

Many who have left the Faith have apostated and many of these become Universalists.  They have pulled out of following Christ and yet don't reject Christians as they don't reject Buddhists, etc.  Apostates of the Faith are more cynical toward Christians than any other religion because Christians are narrow and uncompromising as to the Christ they follow (or should be, Tom..."narrow is the path"). 
 

Elizabeth sounded as if she were almost saying the same thing as Brian.  If you do good, that is Christ.     That Truth is expressed in Good.  It may be, but the Truth of the scriptures are still the inspired Word of God....according to MY VIEW. 

Can you (Tom) and you (Brian) give us all some straight, concise answers, respectively, each not speaking for the other on these points I've raised?....please.

Everyone has a worldview, either implicit or explicit. 

I don't believe the scriptures teach this AT ALL.  If you believe they do, please show where?

Christians have a view that is God's view according to the Word of God through adoption of God's view.  There is a tremendous learning curve.  I don't believe that mature Christians have their own view of anything with the exception of a favorite color or choice of ice cream, for example.  It is God's view of all things with regard to the world that we follow and seek.  "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, His ways than our ways."  "The Wisdom that is from above...." just to share a couple references.  Only God's perspective is sane ultimately. 

A mature believer actually lears how to negate and replace his own personal understanding of things and turns to God in faith in the Spirit and OUT OF God's presence understands what God understands.  This has to be renewed and expanded daily.  Revelation is like manna.  We have to come back for new every day.  We can never just take off on our own and think outside of God's mind and revelation on things.  It's His thoughts that become ours....not so with unbelievers.

frank

[outdeep]

Everyone has a worldview, either implicit or explicit.  It involves our ideas of what is real, true, right or wrong, and how the world/universe works.

I don't believe the scriptures teach this AT ALL.  If you believe they do, please show where?

Just FYI:  Worldview is a philosophical concept, not a theological one.  Asking where the Bible teaches it is like asking where the Bible teaches about scientific models or musical scales or exercise programs or surgical procedures.  All of these items exists and are readily acknowledged as concepts to facilitate communication within the various disciplines even though the Bible doesn't explicitly mention them.

[brian]

Can you (Tom) and you (Brian) give us all some straight, concise answers, respectively, each not speaking for the other on these points I've raised?....please.

a bb is not a phone conversation - its more like a 500-way conversation, so you can't fault someone for chiming in and taking the conversation somewhere you didn't want it to go. but this can be frustrating for the narrow and uncompromising

I don't believe the scriptures teach this AT ALL.  If you believe they do, please show where?

dave made the same point i was about to. i would add to it this link for maximum clarity:

http://www.answers.com/worldview&r=67

its just a word representing something we all have, not a religion.

A mature believer actually lears how to negate and replace his own personal understanding of things and turns to God in faith in the Spirit and OUT OF God's presence understands what God understands.  This has to be renewed and expanded daily.  Revelation is like manna.  We have to come back for new every day.  We can never just take off on our own and think outside of God's mind and revelation on things. It's His thoughts that become ours....not so with unbelievers.

actually, i have observed that when some believers isolate themselves long enough into social homogenousity (inventing words is fun!), over time they can begin to believe that their thoughts and opinions are god's thoughts and opinions. the arrogance is enormous and dangerous, and asserting that this is the case is never very convincing to the majority of the population (including other christians) but i remember what it felt like to believe that. it felt fantastic. man, look at me - i know god's will! i am unstoppable! woohoo! but i've never seen anyone claim that who could demonstrate anything very spectacular or supernatural in their lives, and the believers i've met who did seem to have some real wisdom never made these kinds of claims.

[Oscar]

FrankRuthSondra,

You said the following:

A mature believer actually lears how to negate and replace his own personal understanding of things and turns to God in faith in the Spirit and OUT OF God's presence understands what God understands.

This is great!  For decades some of the greatest minds in the world have been puzzling over how General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics can exist in the same universe.  Einstein, Weinberg, Hawking, Gell-Mann and many others.

Since mature believers "understand what God understands", would you be so kind as to PM me the solution to this knotty problem?  I promise that when I win the Nobel Prize I will share the award money with you 50/50. 

Of course, I understand that you might not be able to do this.  That would then raise two possibilities: 1. You do not fit your own definition of a mature believer.  2. You are simply wrong.

"The scriptures show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."  Isaac Newton

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

I would just add that I remember reading : "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"(Is. 55:8, 9).

From this it seems that we cannot understand what God understands, or for that matter, even come close to understanding what he thinks or understands.

The Bible does say however "Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and lean not to your own understanding. In all of your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy path(Prov. 3:5,6).

In matters of faith we are not to lean on our own understanding. But that is precisely because we can
never understand what God understands, and must rely on the fact that He knows what He's doing, even
when we do not.

--Joe

[frank]

 

Worldview....its just a word representing something we all have, not a religion.

Well, you see, Universalism has been made into a religion.  Accepting all religions is now a religion called, "Worldview."  Whether you have formally attended that church or not doesn't really matter much if you accept all religions and reject none as false, Brian.

Which ones do you approve of, agree with, disagree with.  This is sort of a Christian board.  I think the many Christians who post here would be interested in knowing if you are a Christian...what you think of other religions such as Buddhism and some other similar religions.  Can you answer a direct question with a direct answer?  I would really like to know. 

actually, i have observed that when some believers isolate themselves long enough into social homogenousity (inventing words is fun!), over time they can begin to believe that their thoughts and opinions are god's thoughts and opinions.

Yes, and conversely, some who are overly exposed to the world can be similarly dilusionary and believe they are their own god.  I'll put my bet on those who are at least trying to hear God and believe that He is alive and loves them....even if they do have it a little mixed up.  God is faithful to hang in there with us until we get more light.  Who said we had to do it right the first time, anyway?

 

the arrogance is enormous and dangerous, and asserting that this is the case is never very convincing to the majority of the population (including other christians)

I believe that we have a majority in this country of people of faith in God, Christians, who believe that they know God and that God leads them in their thought life as they choose to incline themselves toward God's thoughts and ways as revealed in the scriptures.  Hope your keeping up, Tom.  Simple Christianity really. 

frank