The God Grab Bag

[vernecarty]

Marty,

A question for you.  If God were to reveal something to you that transcended human intellect, what would you know it with?  You certainly wouldn't be able to comprehend it with your intellect, since it transcends the intellect's limits.

So you would know it with......what?

Also, you have entered this discussion, as far as I can tell, recently, you may not be aware of something that has gone on.  

It is one thing to claim that people are taught of God in ways that transcend the intellect.  It is quite another to demonstrate the actual possession of such knowledge.  I have repeatedly requested that the advocates of this idea share something with us that cannot be learned from reading and analyzing the scriptures.

To date, no one has even tried.

Would you like to do so?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

What faculties did the rich man use to behold Lazarus after his death Tom?
After-all he had no body now did he? You just never give up do you?   
Verne

p.s don't get me wrong for I am not suggeting I have a good answer to this. I am simply pointing out that absent bodily mediation, cognition was apparently present.

[frank]

It is one thing to claim that people are taught of God in ways that transcend the intellect.  It is quite another to demonstrate the actual possession of such knowledge.  I have repeatedly requested that the advocates of this idea share something with us that cannot be learned from reading and analyzing the scriptures.

To date, no one has even tried.

Would you like to do so?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 


 Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 


 Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 

Being born again, and knowing it, transcends the intellect.  It makes no sense at all, in fact, but it is true.

Here's another:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Also, there are the verses and ideas that Verne has shared, which you didn't notice.

Faith isn't something the intellect can grasp.  It transcends the intellect, and is given to us.  You can read and analyze the scriptures as much as the Pharisees did and still not have faith.   It's the difference between life and death. 

How do you know any of this is true?  By faith.  You aren't going to convince anyone by analysis.

Your challenge has been met, several times.  Your logic violates the law of contradiction.  Your assertion that evil spirits are able to speak in a mystical fashion, while God won't is interesting, especially since you argued in the past that Satan can't influence the minds of men.

Is this going to be deleted?

f

[Oscar]

What faculties did the rich man use to behold Lazarus after his death Tom?
After-all he had no body now did he? You just never give up do you?   
Verne

Verne,

The problem is that you, as far as I can ascertain within the limits of my human intellect  , are not dead yet.  As far as I can discern, neither am I.  So, we our current mode of existence is not the same as the folks you are talking about.

Theologians have a term called, "non-local presence" to describe the behavior of spirit beings.  Location as we know it describes the relationships of our bodies to other things.  But "where" is an angel?  They seem to be able to manifest themselves within the space/time universe we experience at specific localities.  But where were they before they showed up at Abraham's tent?   We can say heaven, but that is not a place we can reach just by building a suitable vehicle.  So, disembodied beings, such as the rich man, seem to have capacities that we do not.l

So, though you raise an interesting question, it does not really apply to the type of knowledge we are discussing.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Marty]

Verne,

The problem is that you, as far as I can ascertain within the limits of my human intellect  , are not dead yet.  As far as I can discern, neither am I.  So, we our current mode of existence is not the same as the folks you are talking about.

Theologians have a term called, "non-local presence" to describe the behavior of spirit beings.  Location as we know it describes the relationships of our bodies to other things.  But "where" is an angel?  They seem to be able to manifest themselves within the space/time universe we experience at specific localities.  But where were they before they showed up at Abraham's tent?   We can say heaven, but that is not a place we can reach just by building a suitable vehicle.  So, disembodied beings, such as the rich man, seem to have capacities that we do not.l

So, though you raise an interesting question, it does not really apply to the type of knowledge we are discussing.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

 2 Cor 12:2-4, “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

[Oscar]

Marty,

2 Cor 12:2-4, “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

A worthy shot, and no doubt about it.

However, allthough it comes much closer than some others, I think it still misses the mark. 

1. It is the mode of transport that is the unusual factor here.

2. If Paul, (most folks think this passage is autobiographic), was out of the body, and "heard" unspeakable words, then he was certainly getting some type of communications we don't.  However, the fact is that we don't.  This hardly describes what happens when we read our bibles.
Well, at least not to me.  Even in Paul's case he has to go back 14 years to recount an event such as this.

BTW, I believe confusing God's miraculous interventions into his creation with normal Christian experience is the source of many erroneous ideas.  The question is not what can God do, but what does God normally do.

3. Whatever Paul's state there, something he did not fully understand himself, he was told things in words.  Words are the tools of thought.  We think in words, and we understand and formulate the words we speak in our minds or intellects.  Paul says it is not lawful to tell us what he heard, but if he did he would use "words not lawful to utter."

So, I don't think this passage supports the idea that we receive supra-intellectual knowledge from God.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[frank]

So, I don't think this passage supports the idea that we receive supra-intellectual knowledge from God.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

First of all, there is the gift of tongues, and prophecy, and knowledge, not to mention miracles.  All of that goes beyond intellect, does it not?

Then there is this:

Mark 13:11

But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Here we see clearly that not only in the "olden" days, but even up to the last days, God will supernaturally communicate with his people.

No one has suggested that this is the norm, or that it occurs on a daily basis.  It may occur more for some people than others, and it's not our business to judge the frequency, merely the fruit.  Even then, we should be careful about judging, don't you think?

Tom, you have decided to frame everyone who doesn't agree with you, and lump them all into one big straw man, then knock it down.  The fact is, you are getting multiple answers to your query and challenge.

Can you see it?

f

[Joe Sperling]

 
 

Being born again, and knowing it, transcends the intellect.  It makes no sense at all, in fact, but it is true.


f

I don't think being born-again transcends the intellect--it transforms the intellect. Through the gift of
faith(by God's grace) we are able to see a verse and "understand" that it applies to US, and is not just
a dead reference. We read John 5:24 and "understand" that we have passed from death into life. This
brings us great joy. That faith transforms the heart and the mind and gives us the capacity to understand
the Scriptures are alive and very real.

I find it interesting that when people are challenged to "prove" their experiences, they have to quote
Scripture in order to  attempt to do so. The writer of Proverbs interestingly enough, does not plead
and cry out for greater revelations or experiences, but for greater understanding and wisdom. The psalmist also cries out for greater understanding and wisdom, not for experiences. You may call this greater understanding "special revelation" if you will, but God is "no respecter of persons", and has us use ordinary
means to gain more understanding(such as reading  the Word and praying,  and accessing the gained knowledge of many Christians who have gone before us) by the same means he has given each person
who believes. To get into a realm of "special revelation" is where the charlatan faith healers go, attempting
to lure and rip-off people based on some "special" gift that they have above others.

They love to say "This is not me friends, this is God", but the inference is there that they have some special
gift, some special knowledge, some special revelation above what God gives "normal" Christians. I read a book
that I believed had "changed my life" due to a "special feeling" I gained from it. Interestingly enough, it was
called "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee. This "normal" life he spoke of was a "transcendent life" built on special revelation from God that one could attain by emptying themselves of themselves and totally
serving God. I, like many others, felt I had "put all on the altar", and felt amazing!! But soon I began to realize
that I hadn't put everything on the altar(for as the Scriptures say, we are all sinners and to say differently is
to be a liar), and that this amazing "transcendence" was all based on feelings, not really on faith. "Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN". There is no promise that if we have enough faith we will "SEE" the things NOT SEEN in this verse. It gives us the understanding that those things are truly there and we WILL see them one day in Heaven.



"Thou hast magnified THY WORD above ALL THY NAME"

Thanks, Joe

[vernecarty]

Mark 13:11

But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.


f

Excellent verse which I had intended to share but decided not to bother. Tom's reaction to Scripture that contradicts his arguments is to ignore them or to change the subject, to say nothing of building elaborate straw-men which he then demolishes with great relish.   
This verse in particular powerfully refutes much of what he has been contending, but I again fully expect that he will ignore it...
Verne
p.s Oh I know, he will strenuously contend that the Lord was speaking to the apostles and not to the rest of the church.
Much of what Tom is saying I presume to be out of ignorance. He obviously has not done much talking to missionaries on the front lines. He would probably dismiss the story of the pastor awakened in the middle of the night and prompted to flee with his family scant hours before fanatic muslims burned his church to the ground in Indonesia.
What trobules me the most about Tom's comments  is the implication that a person who has walked with the Lord for as long as he has, can testify to never having seen God intervene in a miraculous way in his own life, either in giving special direction in the form of providing information that he never could have gotten on his own, or soverignly intervening to change some course of action he had decided upon. Could this be possible??!!

[Marty]

 

Being born again, and knowing it, transcends the intellect.  It makes no sense at all, in fact, but it is true.


f

I don't think being born-again transcends the intellect--it transforms the intellect. Through the gift of
faith(by God's grace) we are able to see a verse and "understand" that it applies to US, and is not just
a dead reference. We read John 5:24 and "understand" that we have passed from death into life. This
brings us great joy. That faith transforms the heart and the mind and gives us the capacity to understand
the Scriptures are alive and very real.

I find it interesting that when people are challenged to "prove" their experiences, they have to quote
Scripture in order to  attempt to do so. The writer of Proverbs interestingly enough, does not plead
and cry out for greater revelations or experiences, but for greater understanding and wisdom. The psalmist also cries out for greater understanding and wisdom, not for experiences. You may call this greater understanding "special revelation" if you will, but God is "no respecter of persons", and has us use ordinary
means to gain more understanding(such as reading  the Word and praying,  and accessing the gained knowledge of many Christians who have gone before us) by the same means he has given each person
who believes. To get into a realm of "special revelation" is where the charlatan faith healers go, attempting
to lure and rip-off people based on some "special" gift that they have above others.

They love to say "This is not me friends, this is God", but the inference is there that they have some special
gift, some special knowledge, some special revelation above what God gives "normal" Christians. I read a book
that I believed had "changed my life" due to a "special feeling" I gained from it. Interestingly enough, it was
called "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee. This "normal" life he spoke of was a "transcendent life" built on special revelation from God that one could attain by emptying themselves of themselves and totally
serving God. I, like many others, felt I had "put all on the altar", and felt amazing!! But soon I began to realize
that I hadn't put everything on the altar(for as the Scriptures say, we are all sinners and to say differently is
to be a liar), and that this amazing "transcendence" was all based on feelings, not really on faith. "Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN". There is no promise that if we have enough faith we will "SEE" the things NOT SEEN in this verse. It gives us the understanding that those things are truly there and we WILL see them one day in Heaven.



"Thou hast magnified THY WORD above ALL THY NAME"

Thanks, Joe

Ok Jo, here’s the question. How do you explain what you just said so someone can understand it with mere intellect?

When Jesus said, “You must be born again.” Nicodemus replies, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb?” Here was a theologian, one who studied the scriptures yet could not intellectually understand that concept.

Indeed, understanding comes from a transformed intellect that goes from natural to spiritual. God communicates on a spiritual level.

Heb 5:14, “But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” There is an exercising of the senses that takes place that makes one more in tune with what God is saying and doing. How does one know the will of God for your life? Some are floundering about giving all kinds of religious talk while others are vessels of honor meet for the Master’s use. They can discern what is from God and what is not. Do they have chapter and verse to authenticate it? Not necessarily. But their senses are in tune with God. The bible says so.

I may not be able to intellectually explain it but my limitation does not make it not so. The agnostic will always want proof that God does such and such. The man/woman of faith knows Whom they have believed and are persuaded…

[vernecarty]

Marty,

A worthy shot, and no doubt about it.

However, allthough it comes much closer than some others, I think it still misses the mark. 

1. It is the mode of transport that is the unusual factor here.

2. If Paul, (most folks think this passage is autobiographic), was out of the body, and "heard" unspeakable words, then he was certainly getting some type of communications we don't.  However, the fact is that we don't.  This hardly describes what happens when we read our bibles.
Well, at least not to me.  Even in Paul's case he has to go back 14 years to recount an event such as this.

BTW, I believe confusing God's miraculous interventions into his creation with normal Christian experience is the source of many erroneous ideas.  The question is not what can God do, but what does God normally do.

3. Whatever Paul's state there, something he did not fully understand himself, he was told things in words.  Words are the tools of thought.  We think in words, and we understand and formulate the words we speak in our minds or intellects.  Paul says it is not lawful to tell us what he heard, but if he did he would use "words not lawful to utter."

So, I don't think this passage supports the idea that we receive supra-intellectual knowledge from God.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Marty I am afraid Tom has pulled a fast one on you my friend.
Have you noticed how  his focus has now shifted completely from the source of knowledge to its mode of perception? Boy this guy is good!
The reason this all started is because of Tom's strident insistence that God does not communicate directly with men and that all special revelation is received via sesible means. Stay on target!
If Paul ws out of the body, he certainly could not "hear" in the normal sense.
Verne

[Joe Sperling]

Verne---

The Holy Spirit never works contrary or opposed to the Word of God. He uses the Word
of God to speak to us. As Tom has asked you to give examples of your "special revelation"
you use Scripture to try to back your point--the same Scripture he is asserting is learned
intellectually. By the way, I truly am not saying this to "side" with Tom, but to give you
my own opinion of Mark 13:11 shown below.

Remember right after Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit, how he was immediately
led into the Wilderness and tempted by the Devil? He had been annointed by the Holy
Spirit, and was filled with the Spirit and put to the test, just like the people in Mark 13:11
are. But what does Jesus do in response to each of the Devil's temptings? Does he use
new "revelation",  or use the very Word of God he himself has memorized intellectually by
studying the Word of God? Why not use "special revelation" to combat the devil? Because the
Lord is giving us an example of how to battle, and to live daily by reading and using the Word
of God.

The Holy Spirit "gives" Jesus "words" to speak in his hour of temptation and what are they? Verses
from the Old Testament--and I believe this is what mark 13:11 is referring to--The Holy Spirit will
strenthen in time of temptation, and even martyrdom, by bringing Bible verses to mind--by using
our common intellect and memory to convey his message of encouragement. God doesn't give
each of us a "special" road map to use---he gives all of us the same map to use(The Bible), and it's
up to us whether we want to get to know that map or not.

--Joe

[vernecarty]

Verne,

The problem is that you, as far as I can ascertain within the limits of my human intellect  , are not dead yet.  As far as I can discern, neither am I.  So, we our current mode of existence is not the same as the folks you are talking about.

Theologians have a term called, "non-local presence" to describe the behavior of spirit beings.  Location as we know it describes the relationships of our bodies to other things.  But "where" is an angel?  They seem to be able to manifest themselves within the space/time universe we experience at specific localities.  But where were they before they showed up at Abraham's tent?   We can say heaven, but that is not a place we can reach just by building a suitable vehicle.  So, disembodied beings, such as the rich man, seem to have capacities that we do not.l

So, though you raise an interesting question, it does not really apply to the type of knowledge we are discussing.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Who we are does not essentially change at death Tom. That is self evident.
The point is that this man is still capable of receiving and processing information without sensible means.
The exception proves the rule! Another red herring!  


Verne

[Marty]

Marty I am afraid Tom has pulled a fast one on you my friend.
Have you noticed how  his focus has now shifted completely from the source of knowledge to its mode of perception? Boy this guy is good!
The reason this all started is because of Tom's strident insistence that God does not communicate directly with men and that all special revelation is received via sesible means. Stay on target!
If Paul ws out of the body, he certainly could not "hear" in the normal sense.
Verne

This is true.

This seems to be more of a political debate than a spiritual discussion.

When a republican and democrat are debating, the argument a republican takes to validate his position is the very reason why a democrat won’t accept it. The same is true in reverse. Two opposing perspectives and ideologies. They can’t be reconciled.

With Christians, particularly ones of similar back ground, it should be a discussion that when one brings something new to the table that it is respectfully considered.

“Oh, I never saw that before. I will think on that some more.”

“That’s a good point, but have you considered this?” “No I haven’t. Let me get back to you.”

Its not like this is pentecostals and plymouth brethren debating tongues and slain in the spirit. We are talking of a fundamental teaching in the church that God reveals to His people things consistent with the scriptures in a manner that can not be intellectually explained.

This discussion seems to have Tom’s back up against the wall, his two little paws up, his claws protruding, and will fight to the bitter end. Then there are his die hard supporters who refuse to see something different even though they don’t have a clue what Tom is talking about.

Gotta end it.

[vernecarty]

Verne---

The Holy Spirit never works contrary or opposed to the Word of God. He uses the Word
of God to speak to us. As Tom has asked you to give examples of your "special revelation"
you use Scripture to try to back your point--the same Scripture he is asserting is learned
intellectually. By the way, I truly am not saying this to "side" with Tom, but to give you
my own opinion of Mark 13:11 shown below.

Lash me with a wet noodle if I ever suggest anything otherwise.
Unless you are prepared to contend that we presently understand all that the Word signifies and its every applicaton, I fail to see your point Joe.
Tom's request that I provide him with examples is irrelevant and nothing but a red herring.
What matters is what the Scriptures actually say about the topic at hand - how does God communicate truth...?

Remember right after Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit, how he was immediately
led into the Wilderness and tempted by the Devil? He had been annointed by the Holy
Spirit, and was filled with the Spirit and put to the test, just like the people in Mark 13:11
are. But what does Jesus do in response to each of the Devil's temptings? Does he use
new "revelation",  or use the very Word of God he himself has memorized intellectually by
studying the Word of God? Why not use "special revelation" to combat the devil? Because the
Lord is giving us an example of how to battle, and to live daily by reading and using the Word
of God.

When I say special revelation, I mean it  in more than the systematic theology sense Joe.
If I find a verse of Scripture that applies to a real space-time situation, one in which I have not necessarily dealt before, I consider that "special". Happens all the time my friend. The Word uniquely becomes flesh in each of us...

The Holy Spirit "gives" Jesus "words" to speak in his hour of temptation and what are they? Verses
from the Old Testament--and I believe this is what mark 13:11 is referring to--The Holy Spirit will
strenthen in time of temptation, and even martyrdom, by bringing Bible verses to mind--by using
our common intellect and memory to convey his message of encouragement. God doesn't give
each of us a "special" road map to use---he gives all of us the same map to use, and it's up to us
whether we take advantage of it and study it or not.  Just my opinion of course.

--Joe

There is much "revealed in the NT that you would  be  hard pressed to glean from the old without benefit of special or "new" revelation Joe. Although it always was the case, I would not have realised that Hagar corresponded to Mt. Sinai in the OT until Paul told me so in the NT. I think I understand that you are saying that the Word of God does not change and I agree with that. I am just saying that it is infinite! I do not necessarily agree that God does not give each of us a special "road map" . I think the Spirit of God applies the Word to each believer according to need. Good points!

[vernecarty]

 Then there are his die hard supporters who refuse to see something different even though they don’t have a clue what Tom is talking about.

Gotta end it.

Hyuk! Hyuk!
Verne