Can We Know If Someone is Saved?

[vernecarty]

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.  1 John 4:1

The purpose of this thread is not to engage in idle speculation.
It is rather to explore whether there is any Scriptural basis by whcih we may arrive at a reasonable determination of the correct answer to the above query.
I trust that I shall never reach a state in which I consider myself incapable of learning from my brethren, and it is  in that spirit that I wish to broach the question.
I have stated on many occasions that I consider Gerorge Geftakys to be in the unique Scriptural category of the false prophet/teacher.
If I am corrrect. I think that one may Scripturally conclude that he is not saved.
I could be wrong.
Why is this important?
If I am correct, the proper tenor of our prayer should be one of petitioning God for swift judgment.
If I am wrong, and George is a brother in Christ as some contend, and one who tragically fell into heinous sin as many a child of God has indeed done, then we should pray for his repentance and restoration.
I like to pray with intelligence, so I pose this question to my felllow readers of the BB:

Do you think we have any Scriptural basis for concluding what is the condition fo this man's soul?
Verne

[fuloboloney]

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.  1 John 4:1

The purpose of this thread is not to engage in idle speculation.
It is rather to explore whether there is any Scriptural basis by whcih we may arrive at a reasonable determination of the correct answer to the above query.
I trust that I shall never reach a state in which I consider myself incapable of learning from my brethren, and it is  in that spirit that I wish to broach the question.
I have stated on many occasions that I consider Gerorge Geftakys to be in the unique Scriptural category of the false prophet/teacher.
If I am corrrect. I think that one may Scripturally conclude that he is not saved.
I could be wrong.
Why is this important?
If I am correct, the proper tenor of our prayer should be one of petitioning God for swift judgment.
If I am wrong, and George is a brother in Christ as some contend, and one who tragically fell into heinous sin as many a child of God has indeed done, then we should pray for his repentance and restoration.
I like to pray with intelligence, so I pose this question to my felllow readers of the BB:

Do you think we have any Scriptural basis for concluding what is the condition fo this man's soul?
Verne

Verne,

You used the word, "Saved?"  Saved from what?  Only the wicked are going to hell, right?  What about the good who do not live by faith? What is their eternal destiny, IYO?   

Max

[Oscar]

Verne,

Seems to me that before you consider whether or not GG was a false prophet, you first need to establish whether or not he was a prophet at all.  Wouldn't a person have to actually claim to prophesy before he could be classified as prophet?

In the NT period there were folks going around to churches claiming to give prophesies.  Prophesy and teaching were seen as different gifts and different types of speech.  Did GG actually claim to prophesy? 

I have heard him say that the NT prophet has been replaced by the gifted teacher.  Whether that it true or not, a lot of Christians believe it is, and GG seems to have been of this opinion.  However, my actual hearing of his claims ends at 1988 or so. 

Anyone know more about this?

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Maxim,

Verne,

You used the word, "Saved?"  Saved from what?  Only the wicked are going to hell, right?  What about the good who do not live by faith? What is their eternal destiny, IYO?   

Max

Exactly who do you mean by "the good"?

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You used the word, "Saved?"  Saved from what? 

I will assume that your question is not rhetorical and that you are not familiar with the Biblical concept of salvation Maxim.
Saved from what indeed! 
Probably the simplest answer can be found in the this verse from the Bible.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.     He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  Romans 3:17, 18

So if I were to answer you question, I would say saved from God's condemnation.
Verne

Only the wicked are going to hell, right? 

More specifically, whomsoever is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life ; also the devil and his angels.

What about the good who do not live by faith? What is their eternal destiny, IYO? 

Frankly, if it were up to me, lots of faithless folk would get a break by my standards.
The problem is that I don't get to decide and the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God.
It is His call.
Verne 

[vernecarty]

Verne,

Seems to me that before you consider whether or not GG was a false prophet, you first need to establish whether or not he was a prophet at all.  Wouldn't a person have to actually claim to prophesy before he could be classified as prophet?

In the NT period there were folks going around to churches claiming to give prophesies.  Prophesy and teaching were seen as different gifts and different types of speech.  Did GG actually claim to prophesy? 

I have heard him say that the NT prophet has been replaced by the gifted teacher.  Whether that it true or not, a lot of Christians believe it is, and GG seems to have been of this opinion.  However, my actual hearing of his claims ends at 1988 or so. 

Anyone know more about this?

Thomas Maddux

For the purposes of my query, I am prepared to accept interchangeability of false prophet and false teacher Tom. Peter seems to have anticipated this very question.

 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,
2 Peet 2:1

Notwithstanding the fact that George did indeed hazard predictions, and frequently referred to his own ministry as "prophetic", let us just say that the term false teacher would more correctly apply. Their fate is identical to that of the false prophet.
Verne

[Oscar]

For the purposes of my query, I am prepared to accept interchangeability of false prophet and false teacher Tom. Peter seems to have anticipated this very question.

 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,
2 Peet 2:1

Notwithstanding the fact that George did indeed hazard predictions, and frequently referred to his own ministry as "prophetic", let us just say that the term false teacher would more correctly apply. Their fate is identical to that of the false prophet.
Verne

Verne,

I heard GG make predictions.  "Jesus is coming before the end of the 1980's" was one of them. Many people made that prediction, (Hal Lindsey for one) based on an erroneous analysis of prophetic passages.  I used the call the idea, "fig tree plus 40."  It was quite popular.  Personally, I never believed it.

So, is everyone who teaches something that turns out to be wrong a false prophet/teacher?  If so, I guess I am one too.  I once bought into partial rapturism, for at least two or three years.  I remember trying to convince Joe Sperling it was true.

I got my head straightened our, at least partially, by reading the works of serious biblical scholars.  I saw my error and rejected the teaching.  So did my status as a false prophet/teacher cease at that time, or is such status irrevocable? 

BTW, have you ever done anything like this?  Since you once believed the assembly was a true example of a faithful church, and probably told folks this, what about you? 

 

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

I heard GG make predictions.  "Jesus is coming before the end of the 1980's" was one of them. Many people made that prediction, (Hal Lindsey for one) based on an erroneous analysis of prophetic passages.  I used the call the idea, "fig tree plus 40."  It was quite popular.  Personally, I never believed it.

So, is everyone who teaches something that turns out to be wrong a false prophet/teacher?  If so, I guess I am one too.  I once bought into partial rapturism, for at least two or three years.  I remember trying to convince Joe Sperling it was true.

I got my head straightened our, at least partially, by reading the works of serious biblical scholars.  I saw my error and rejected the teaching.  So did my status as a false prophet/teacher cease at that time, or is such status irrevocable? 

BTW, have you ever done anything like this?  Since you once believed the assembly was a true example of a faithful church, and probably told folks this, what about you? 

 

Thomas Maddux

Boy did I have a lot of things  screwed up! I hear ya man.
The list of things that Peter and Jude say about the category are very specific and have to do with far more than wrong doctrine. While I tend to agree that wrong doctrine and wrong conduct often go hand in hand, the kind of behaviour that the false prophet and false teacher is described as engaging in does not seem to be of the nature of mere trangression, but of studied and deliberate wickedness.
Considering George's history, he absolutely qualifies.
I have looked at the list carefully and may be guilty of some of the stated items.
The one thing that I think clearly removes both you and me from the category is our williingness to repent.
Verne
p.s. Habitual sexual sin seems to also be a denominator of the type. I am confident that neither you nor I have that particular problem. 

[fuloboloney]

I will assume that your question is not rhetorical and that you are not familiar with the Biblical concept of salvation Maxim.
Saved from what indeed! 
Probably the simplest answer can be found in the this verse from the Bible.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.     He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  Romans 3:17, 18

So if I were to answer you question, I would say saved from God's condemnation.
Verne


More specifically, whomsoever is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life ; also the devil and his angels.


Frankly, if it were up to me, lots of faithless folk would get a break by my standards.
The problem is that I don't get to decide and the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God.
It is His call.
Verne 

Thanks.  I hear you saying that you believe that good people are going to hell (condemned by God) because they will not profess faith, even when their behavior and works show their love for God.  Yes?  I know people who know the bible and who are not in faith and good works yet they say they are Christians.  They say the "right" things, but they are empty of love and faith.

The bible verses are very confusing on this.  Would like to hear your response. 

Max

[vernecarty]

Thanks.  I hear you saying that you believe that good people are going to hell (condemned by God)

If the standard of "good" is yours or mine, then I would say yes. Good people are going to hell.
I believe that the Bible teaches that God has only one stadard and that is perfection.
I believe the Bible also teaches that only one man who ever lived met that standard.
All gradations of goodness less than perfection therefore fall short of God's standard.
Since He is the one who determines who goes to hell, the standard He promulgates is far more critical than the one you and I do.

...because they will not profess faith, even when their behavior and works show their love for God.  Yes?  I know people who know the bible and who are not in faith and good works yet they say they are Christians.  They say the "right" things, but they are empty of love and faith.

The bible verses are very confusing on this.  Would like to hear your response. 

Max
[

There are I believe many people who have never seen a Bible, who will be saved. That is evident since the NT commends poeople who were considered to be "of faith" before the Bible was written.
The Bible agrees with you that some men, in the absence of a written "faith document" (law) nevertheless by their conduct show adherence to it.
Sadly, your contention is true.
Many who profess faith, discredit such profession by their lives.
Many who do not make a profession, appear to live nobly.
While genuine faith should produce good works in those who have it, it is not unusual to see such production delayed, particulary in the immature- temporary absence is not necessarily conclusive.
Conversely, clearly people who not only do not profess any faith whatsoever, but even vehemently reject it, can do good.
This brings me to the important point: Neither the presence, or the absence of works of any kind is the basis for Biblical faith. Faith ultimately has to do with how a person responds to what God has said - with belief? or unbelief?
God has spoken to men in many forms and over all of human history so each person is responsible for what they do with what they have heard.
We believe of course that God's message is preserved in written form in the Scriptures, so those who have heard the message they contain are likewise responsible for what they do with it.
Genuine faith I think has less to do with what you have done, about the message, than whether you have believed it!
Verne

[vernecarty]

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.  2 Peter 2:20

Is it possible that some who talks like a Christian, looks like a Chrstian, and even acts like Christian be unregenerate?
Has anyone who has done a study of 2 Peter compared his use of the words "corruption" and "pollution"?
What does it mean to escape the pollutions of the world through a knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Is this verse referring to a knowledge that resulted in salvation?
If it does, what does it mean that it had been better for them not to know the way of rightousness?
What does it mean the latter end is worse with them than the beginning?
Does this imply they are worse off than someone who never heard the gospel message?
If they were indeed saved, is the implication then that salvation is conditional?
What is the significance of the expression "A dog returning to its vomit?"
What is a sow?
What is a washed sow?

I need some answers!   
Verne

[Jem]

Verne,

You say you need answers, but I think, and I'm not trying to be sassy, you already have the answers. You seem to do this every once in awhile. You asked questions, but already seem to have a well formulated opinion of what the answer ought to be.

But back to your original question, why does anyone need to know if a person is saved or unsaved to pray for them intelligently? It's God's job to judge a person's salvation isn't it. If you need to know, can't God give you a special revelation? And if He doesn't maybe we don't need to know.

I don't think we need to know a persons spiritual state to "try the spirits."

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You say you need answers, but I think, and I'm not trying to be sassy, you already have the answers. You seem to do this every once in awhile. You asked questions, but already seem to have a well formulated opinion of what the answer ought to be.

But back to your original question, why does anyone need to know if a person is saved or unsaved to pray for them intelligently? It's God's job to judge a person's salvation isn't it. If you need to know, can't God give you a special revelation? And if He doesn't maybe we don't need to know.

I don't think we need to know a persons spiritual state to "try the spirits."

Thanks for your perspective Jem!
Verne

[Elizabeth H]

Verne,

You say you need answers, but I think, and I'm not trying to be sassy, you already have the answers. You seem to do this every once in awhile. You asked questions, but already seem to have a well formulated opinion of what the answer ought to be.

But back to your original question, why does anyone need to know if a person is saved or unsaved to pray for them intelligently? It's God's job to judge a person's salvation isn't it. If you need to know, can't God give you a special revelation? And if He doesn't maybe we don't need to know.

I don't think we need to know a persons spiritual state to "try the spirits."

I concur.

[vernecarty]

I have come to the conclusion that with the possible exception of Lenore, the capacity of the BB for talking about Scripture is non-existent.
On the several occasions on which I have tried to spur conversation about the Word, which is my first love, we inevitably slide into erudite theological ruminations, or infantile commentary about my motives for wanting to talk about such things.
Every single important thing I have learned or done has been as a result of better understanding of what God's Word is saying. God's Word is the key. The words are sprit and they are life.
My wife is back and on her instructions. to keep myself from further agitation, I am taking a long break. Bye.
Verne