deeper life and scriptural interpretation

[Christine]

Wow, Tom, these are amazing quotes. Would you mind if I add your post to the ga.com piece on Nee? George's answer was diabolically clever. Without explicitly passing judgment, he disqualified the booklet so no-one else would get any ideas and ruin the image of his perfect ministry, but left the door open for himself. So far as I know, he had Nee's stuff removed from the book table. Does anyone know anything about that?

I remember the "booktable" had a set of Nee's books.  I bought the set of 3 books. I remember one of the sisters wanting to talk to me about the books. I dont remember the exact conversation but I had to get rid of 2 of the 3 books. I would love to hear the explanation why again but now I see why. For whatever reason I didnt question.  maybe it was one of those button I was trying and trying to push as I was trying to be a perfect saint all the while the hand chosen ones had the buttons pushed for them 

[vernecarty]

Margaret's question re. GG:

 
  I know of a pastor from a church in Temecula who taught a good clear Gospel and probably didn't even know what "higher life" teaching was.  He did not lord it over the flock, and seemed to be a sincere and honest man.  However, he had a secret life:  He was married, but had a hankering for teen girls and was discovered to have molested several young girls at the church. 

  He's in prison now, and I wonder what he might think (GG, I believe, is destined for a worse result). But, in this pastor's case, he allowed his strong sinful desires to overpower what he clearly knew was wrong.  As long as he was able to get away with it without getting caught his compulsions overcame (a different version of overcomer teaching ) his moral sensitivity.

 
                                                             God Bless,  Mark C.

The frequency with which people involved in public ministry fall prey to sexual sin is nothing short of astonishing. When one considers that the statistics are based on actually documented cases, we may safely assume the problem is far worse than we know. This is the kind of problem that one can easily hide from others but which will sooner or later find you out unless it is dealt with. In my humble opinon when something like this becomes public, it has been a problem left unckecked and un-acknowledged for some time.
Godly standards in this arena apparently no longer hold sway.
I was surpised to hear a concert by Sandi Patti being announced on our local Christian radio station recently.
I do not think failure in this area in and of itself qualifies one as a false teacher though. Even a man like David had this problem.
It has sadly destroyed many a Christian witness.
For us men, the discipline of the eyes and thoughts are the very rudiments of learning holiness...how strange that supposedly seasoned ministers of the gospel allow themselves to be entrapped by this oldest of the adversary's schemes...!
Verne

[tkarey]

Dear Verne, (Part 1 of 2)

I know I am asking for trouble with this question, so I apologize ahead of time for being argumentative. Also, on the outset, I want to acknowledge my ignorance of many, many spiritual things/Christian history/etc that you are intimately familiar with. So, if you choose to respond pretend I'm an ignoramus who needs to be led by the hand - and you'll be pretty close.

Ok, for my comment and question. I use to have the same opinion as you about Sandi Patti and other, similar people. But when I read your comment I felt sick to my stomach and had to review why. One reason is obvious (I'll get to that in a minute), but it wasn't the only reason I had that reaction.

Which failure excludes us from speaking out? I know nothing of where Sandi Patti is now. I'd like to know, frankly. But that aside, which failure excludes us??? Is it denying Christ? Well, Peter might not think so. Is it sexual sin? David might not think so. Is it losing hope? Elijah might not think so. Is it doing all three? I, myself, can attest to that one not being true.

You see, I had an affair. There, I've said it ON THE WEB. I was the good girl, the one that held my little family together (so I thought, so everyone thought). The absolute SHOCK people had when they found out cannot be described. My husband was the bad boy, the one who "was going to wreck our home", the rebel without a cause. Fourteen years of birthing his babies, trying to be a good wife to "win him back", to "be a good testimony", of living with his sins and shortcomings, besides my own (I'd love to gossip about him but this is my story, not his), of feeling like less than a non-person, of letting the lies of the enemy seep in and take root - well, I was ripe for the picking. My faith kept me back, but I longed to be loved. I let that longing and wishing take root, wrap itself around my heart. I'd longed for love since as early as I can remember. When my oldest son turned 13 I bawled my eyes out. I thought he'd grow up, see me as I really am, and hate me as every other significant man in my life had. (He's 17 and that still hasn't happened, BTW.) So - my faith was the glue that kept me on the straight and narrow, so to speak, but there were lots of holes - holes created by my own humanity, by lies of the enemy, by ignorance.

When I heard about the demise of the assembly I lost even my faltering faith. It was replaced by an anger I've never experienced before or since. One year later I was propositioned by a man who didn't seem to see all the reasons to hate me as my husband did. In a moment of clarity (so I thought) I said to myself, "I've done what's right all my life and got nothing but hurt from it, I'm going to do what's wrong and be happy for once in my life."  So I did. And I was for the briefest moment. But that kind of happiness comes at a cost almost too much to bear. I'd never partied, tried not to gossip, tried to be and do everything I should, never doubted God (except once before that when my sister's son put her in the hospital after beating her nearly to death), never wanted to do ANYTHING more than serve God. And yet for the next two years I became someone you only hear about in testimonies. I'd never thought I had much of a testimony before - be careful what you wish for! The affair lasted 6 months, but I didn't care. I was still mad and I trusted no one at all, especially God. So, I put feet to my rebellion.

[tkarey]

Dear Verne, (Part 2 of 2)

Ironically, it was my walking out the door that ultimately turned my husband around. Ok, it was God, but that act played a huge role. I’ll never know how it would’ve happened if I hadn’t lost hope, but this it how it happened when I did. He became responsible, vulnerable, crying out to God over the wreck of his life. His wife left him, one daughter hated him, the other daughter was afraid of him, his sons knew how to read the weather report and act accordingly. My husband became my friend for the first time in well over a decade. He bought me kitchen stuff for my apartment!!! He became kind. I still had NO plans to go back to him. Even my daughter urged me not to, until she came back from church camp where she said she learned that God is her daddy and maybe it wouldn't be so bad if we got back together. Then one day I was journaling about my dad; I grieved over that relationship and made peace with it. Then...a voice in my head said, "it's time to go home." I came over to the house the next day (my kids were relieved to not have to switch houses every week!). That was Sept. 12, 2005. My husband graciously took me back. There were challenges. Sometimes we didn't think we'd make it. We still have a lot of collateral damage to clear up. The first time my husband really got mad at me I locked myself in the bathroom and cut my arms. Then I showed my husband. That was an improvement - while in the assembly I did that and told no one for 5 years. But now that isn't an issue in the least for me at all (I had to promise not to do it again and was determined to keep the promise). In Feb. '06 we found out we were pregnant, now we have a precious new boy, 5 amazing children, 22 years of a marriage that went to hell and back, and every day carry a grateful humility that we are alive and loved by a God who never left us.

I use to sing the 99 and 9 song - an old hymn - when going to sleep. I'd pray, "God, if you're real, you have to fix this. I can't. I won't. I challenged God to prove Himself, to prove His character. And He did. And He seemed to say, "Gee, give me something hard next time, will ya? This is easy."

I will spend every day of however many days I have left telling people that the Grace of God is why we breathe, why I'm alive, why this family exists. I am not excluded.

It would be simpler if I'd had a rough upbringing. Dysfunctional, yes, extremely so. But on the outside? I was a goody-goody Southern Baptist preachers kid. I sang, played the piano, taught VBS. I prayed, humbled myself over and over, was kind to animals and old people.

So, I'd LOVE to be like you, Verne. I sigh over the thought of the strength of will some people have. Mine sucks. I get by on grace alone. HOWEVER, I'm learning! Yeah!! God is teaching me a discipline steeped in grace and kindness. It's COOL to be middle-aged and finally learning some of these basic things, to know it isn't too late.

Thanks for listening. Even though I promised never to post again, I did, and I'm glad.

Karey

[outdeep]

Thank you, Karey for your courageous post on ga.com.  The truth is, many of us had a secret life kept hidden due to the fear of being a sinner amoung the pious.  My wife and I are currently going to Celebrate Recovery where we are able to speak openly about our issues and find healing in a true application of the gospel.

God will use your brokenness to help others.

Lord bless,

-Dave Sable

www.CelebrateRecoveryBoone.org in Boone, NC
www.CelebrateRecoveryBlog.org for conversation
www.CelebrateRecovery.com Main one in Lake Forest, CA

[vernecarty]

Dear Verne, (Part 1 of 2)

I know I am asking for trouble with this question, so I apologize ahead of time for being argumentative. Also, on the outset, I want to acknowledge my ignorance of many, many spiritual things/Christian history/etc that you are intimately familiar with. So, if you choose to respond pretend I'm an ignoramus who needs to be led by the hand - and you'll be pretty close.

I have met a few ignoramuses in my life Karey.
In my  humble opinion you don't qualify.

Ok, for my comment and question. I use to have the same opinion as you about Sandi Patti and other, similar people. But when I read your comment I felt sick to my stomach and had to review why. One reason is obvious (I'll get to that in a minute), but it wasn't the only reason I had that reaction.

Which failure excludes us from speaking out?

Absolutely none.
As a matter of fact. what you have posted on the BB is powerful witness to the remarkable grace of God to recover us from our innate tendency to destroy our own lives.
Make no mistake about it Karey, the only difference between you and the rest of us is our we have not been as forthright about our own spectacular failures.
There is also an eternity of difference between how I view your story, and the point I was trying to make about Geftakys and the reference to Sandi Patti.

That eternity of difference is acknowledgement of and repentance from known sin.

Had you not made it right, you would not be in the position you are now to minister the message grace to the rest of us.

That is what separates you from the likes of Geftakys.

To the best of my knowledge Sandi Patti has continued to record gospel albums and perform at concert tours while being given a pass on her own personal failure in this regard.
I in no way meant to imply that God cannot recover us from great sin, or that previous failure necessarily disqualifies us from ministry.
My own life provides stark testimony to the contrary.
Please accept my sincere apology if I gave that impression.
Verne

p.s. I still think Patti's recording of "Via Dolorosa" is one of the most moving I have ever heard...

[Joe Sperling]

TKarey----

Thanks for your post. It's our very failings that humble us enough to see that without the Grace of God we are truly nothing.(or I should say, we are truly nothing, and God's grace gives us our value). I was reading some posts before yours and thought of George and his likeness to Peter BEFORE Peter's denial. Peter told Jesus "Though all others forsake you, I will never forsake you". As we all know Peter failed miserably when actually put to the test, and denied Christ just as he said Peter would. We also know how much this must have humbled Peter---no more could he think himself "above others" spiritually. He knew what he had done--and also that he was always capable of doing it again. "Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall" (paraphrase).

In many ways George was(and most likely still is) like Peter BEFORE his fall.  I have mentioned before, but it has always stayed with me, how George said, when singing "Come Thou Fount Of Every Blessing", that he refused to sing the phrase "Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love", because, as he said, "HE would NEVER stray from the Lord, and NEVER felt prone to wander".  I remember at the time having mixed feelings---I thought "REALLY? he NEVER feels prone to wander?? WOW, what a highly spiritual person!!" But I also felt a sense of extreme pride and egotism coming from him when he said that---like he was above the hymn writer and all others who might be "prone to wander". Something sounded wrong about making a statement like that.  He added after making the statement about never being prone to wander "The Lord always has his faithful ones" and he winked towards a leading brother.(Inferring he and the leading brother were true faithful servants of the Lord unlike others).

Though George talked often of "brokeness" and going "the way of the cross", he himself did not appear to be humbled or broken at all. He saw himself in an elite status--an especially blessed servant ABOVE the common failings of others (including the writer of "Fount of every Blessing" who had this spiritual weakness to wander, and unfortunately also had a weakness in writing about it, forcing George to have to ignore this distasteful verse).

The difference between Peter and George though is striking.  Peter wept and humbled himself. He was able to be restored by the Lord because he saw what a failure he was without Jesus. He would forever remember his own denial, and it would serve to remind him that he was never above another, and that he was capable of the worst of failings. He didn't put the blame of his fall on others, but saw his complete ineptness and inability to do anything apart from God's Grace. But it would also remind him how much Jesus loved him, and had restored him and used him despite these failings. Jesus saw his heart, and his true repentance, and said "feed my sheep", because he saw Peter was a true shepherd, and would keep the concerns of his little sheep before his own.

George, on the other hand, when confronted, and excommunicated, did not humble himself and repent. He saw himself as the elite Lord's servant who was under "attack" and was only concerned about  "bringing down this ministry and a man of God", rather than all of the people he had hurt. He was concerned about himself, and had no concern for the women who had come forward, or for what had been done to them and their lives. He had no concerns for all of the testimonies of people who had obviously been hurt by his teachings and ministry. Jesus saw his heart, and his lack of repentance, and witheld him from further feeding of his sheep, because he saw George was not a true shepherd, and would not keep the concerns of his little sheep before his own.

The attitude George had mirrored the statement regarding the law we have heard "If one keeps all of the law, yet offends in one point, he has broken all of the law". Though supposedly under Grace, the perception was that if one admitted weakness, or showed failure, that "victorious walk" had been compromised and the person had fallen, revealing that they were unspiritual, and  not as close to God as those who never failed or "wandered". This sent many spiraling into depression, as this "higher walk" they sought to attain was constantly interrupted by failure (though they couldn't admit that or they would  be perceived as a "weak brother or sister"--and no one wanted their cover blown, as being perceived as "spiritual" was very important to self-esteem).

How far from what the Bible teaches!! God remembers that we "are but dust"(Ps. 103) and does not reward us according to iniquities and failures. He is amazingly aware how prone we are to stray off the good path and fall for "the sin that so easily besets us". My failures should teach me that I am nothing, and that God's grace is everything. The minute I begin to think I am more "spiritual" than the next person, I need to remember my failings, and how I have fallen in the past. And it's good to have this "thorn in the flesh" that reminds us not to think of ourselves more highly than we should.  "ALL we LIKE SHEEP have gone astray" "There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, no NOT ONE".

"Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love"?   Yes--for sure at times. "Here's my heart Lord, O take and seal it, seal it for thy courts above".  Amen.

[tkarey]

Thank you everyone for your kind responses. Verne, when I wrote about Sandi Patti I just assumed she'd had a time of repentance. I remember reading that she was under correction from her local church. I wondered at the time if it included sitting in the back and not partaking of the Lord's Supper.

It didn't cross my mind that this may not have happened (the repentance, not the sitting in the back). That would certainly be odd and, well, wrong. I hope it isn't really that way.  And I LOVE Via Dolorosa!! 

Maybe one of these days all of us could get together.

My little baby is cooing at my 10 and 12 year old. Life hardly gets better than that.

[vernecarty]

. Verne, when I wrote about Sandi Patti I just assumed she'd had a time of repentance. I remember reading that she was under correction from her local church. I wondered at the time if it included sitting in the back and not partaking of the Lord's Supper.

It didn't cross my mind that this may not have happened (the repentance, not the sitting in the back). That would certainly be odd and, well, wrong. .

Patti's situation is a mess and I don't pretend to know what
God's will is for her at this point.
As you know both she and her present husband divorced their spouses to marry each other, and that after an on-going relationship while they were both still married to other people.
Should folk be accepted and forgiven who have made mistakes as believers?
Absolutely.
Nonetheless, I do believe there are certain times when the choices we have made so ruin our testimony that it becomes virtually impossible to be an effective witness for Christ.
In my humble opinion and based upon what I know about her situation, (she wrote a book attempting to justify her sin) Sandi Patti has made such choices and I personally would not attend any of her concerts, nor would I encourage any one else to do so.
Verne 

p.s please note my intention is not to single out Sandi Patti for criticism, rather it is to highlight the deplorable state of compromise that  exists among professing believers today. If you have the stomach for it check out this link about that industry:

 http://www.av1611.org/crock/crockex3.html

[tkarey]

Dear Verne,

Oh my - I did not know these things. I just read the link you suggested. I do remember back in the late 70's, maybe '80 or '81,  I went to a local mega church where there was condemnation of all things contemporary. People came forward to throw away cigarettes, break their albums, and throw themselves down on the floor (literally and loudly) in repentance. It was a circus and I had very little respect for the man in charge. He went all over the country and seemed to like all the attention he drew. There was a great stir at the time to listen to albums backwards to hear the satanic messages. I remember being very confused. It seemed these people had a good point and I certainly stopped listening to some songs for awhile, but the people peddling this were, for the most part, very greasy. There appeared to be very little space between them and someone a century before selling hair tonic from town to town. I was extremely influenced by Keith Green during high school, but got guilty pleasure from listening to Van Halen. I thought it sad that such 'great' music should be paired with evil words (such as "Running With the Devil").

I suppose if this conversation continues it should be moved to a music thread.

Like most of my other squeaky-clean Christian contemporaries, I adored Amy Grant and Sandi Patti. I was uncomfortable with the adulation of people, but figured music was like church - there's the bad and the good and you have to put up with one to get the other. So when I encountered the assembly I thought I'd struck gold. Here were people who were able and dedicated to keeping the good while eliminating the bad. They were thoughtful, educated people, which drew me like slop to a pig. I wanted that deeper life! Ug.

I am sad over the OBVIOUS sin and delusion of the people in this article, and others like them. It encourages me to keep my knees bent. There IS no utopia, no place where evil cannot enter, except heaven.  Slapping the name "Christian" on it doesn't make it so (...as Picard would say). Still, this is very liberating. I don't have to wait until I can homeschool 6 dozen adopted children in the wilds of Montana before I am successful at being Christian. (I am drawn to that picture of 'perfect Christian domesticity.') I don't have to be the latest Christian singer (aka American Idol for the conservative set). I don't have to wait until I enter the perfect church (as I hoped the assembly would be). God wants me, all of me, wherever I am. This is a wonderful reminder.

Thanks for the food for thought. I was especially encouraged by the Fanny Crosby bits. I use to have a biography of her, years ago. I think it is time to invest in another one, plus old favorites like "Stepping Heavenward". All of these I threw out - didn't even send them to Goodwill - in a moment of cynicism. I've been burdened with the shortness of time I have left to influence my kids and be who I was meant to be. Maybe that's old age creeping up, I don't know.

[vernecarty]

Dear Verne,

 There appeared to be very little space between them and someone a century before selling hair tonic from town to town. I was extremely influenced by Keith Green during high school, but got guilty pleasure from listening to Van Halen. I thought it sad that such 'great' music should be paired with evil words (such as "Running With the Devil").

The musician in me looovves Eddie Van Halen. From the point of view of an all out rocking album there are few that are as energetic as Van Halen II with Sammy Hagar sceaming out those saucy lyrics.
There has been no greater spiritual challenge for me than in the area of music.
Has anyone ever heard a more hauntingly beautiful melody than Led Zeppelin's Stairway to heaven?
Do a bit of research on what the author says about how he came to write that song and it gives you pause...
This topic is of critical importance because it raises questions concerning the sometimes elusive difference between true holiness and mere legalism, between godliness and wild-eyed fanaticism, between speaking the truth in love and self-righteous posturing.
What I find that both I and other Christians are guilty of in this area is not using the brains God gave us.
For example, when you do even a little bit of research concerning the lifestyle and conduct some of the folk cited in that piece you wonder

How on earth did this ever come to be considered as Christian?

How often have I myself not made that excuse that although the lyrics are blasphemous and ungodly, the tune is sure catchy.

And so the adversary traps us with a web of allurement.

This is a very personal journey for each of us and I would never condemn a person for their own choice of music.
I have found in my own life however, a pursuit of the King has caused me to examine much that in the past I would thoughtlessly allow.
I am finding that true holiness in nothing more than an abiding sense of God's watchful eye on our every thought, word, action.
What a joy to work in the liberty of His presence, whatever I am doing!
I know He loves Coltrane!   



Verne

[Mark C.]

Like most of my other squeaky-clean Christian contemporaries, I adored Amy Grant and Sandi Patti. I was uncomfortable with the adulation of people, but figured music was like church - there's the bad and the good and you have to put up with one to get the other. So when I encountered the assembly I thought I'd struck gold. Here were people who were able and dedicated to keeping the good while eliminating the bad. They were thoughtful, educated people, which drew me like slop to a pig. I wanted that deeper life! Ug.
 There IS no utopia, no place where evil cannot enter, except heaven.  Slapping the name "Christian" on it doesn't make it so (...as Picard would say). Still, this is very liberating. I don't have to wait until I can homeschool 6 dozen adopted children in the wilds of Montana before I am successful at being Christian. (I am drawn to that picture of 'perfect Christian domesticity.') I don't have to be the latest Christian singer (aka American Idol for the conservative set). I don't have to wait until I enter the perfect church (as I hoped the assembly would be). God wants me, all of me, wherever I am. This is a wonderful reminder.

 Hi TKarey!

   It would seem that many of our past "Christian" experiences are so opposite to growth in true faith that it would be better if most of us just avoided any kind of church/ministry situations and stay at home and read our bibles.  But, I'm not really suggesting this, it just seems that the disciples are always standing in the way telling us what God is thinking while Jesus is saying something else altogether (i.e.--- "suffer the children to come unto me, etc.).

  You share a great deal of wisdom above in your conclusions re. expectations of perfection from churches, etc.:"I don't have to wait until I enter the perfect church---."  After all, as you say, our lives are suppose to be all about God and his care for me and the world, not the construction of edifices to "Christian testimony" ( in other words, how great we disciples are vs. how great God is).

  What I learn from what you said is that we shouldn't necessarily avoid going to church, listening to Christian music, etc. but that we should do so with the knowledge that these things are not God and are very poor substitues for Him.  Better that I attend church with that understanding--that realization tempered with a good deal of loving tolerance of my fellow believers-- that we are all in the same humble boat and floating in the same river of grace.

  I'm not suggesting that we silently support "hair tonic salesman" in the church (or other variations on this theme) in a quest to be more tolerant.  I guess what I'm saying (and what I'm learning from your post) is that as former Assembly members, now liberated, we have a lot to offer our fellow believers who are still caught up in all the dead end's (such as the one perfect church, Christian celebrity, higher life, ad nauseum). 

  The simple Gospel's most ardent antagonist is not from human failure, rather it comes from the religious mind that perverts that simple message.   A light reading of the Gospels shows that Jesus had to operate outside of the religious establishment of his time and found the greatest resistance to his message from these!

                                     Thank you and God bless,  Mark C. 

[tkarey]

I have read your post and Verne's too. I loved them. I want the assembly experience to count for SOMETHING! I can't respond at the moment as our internet is down at home - I only have a brief moment now. Don't know when we'll be back online, so I hope you all are quite well.

 :)Karey

[Joe Sperling]

"Excuse me!!  Excuse me!!!  I'm so very sorry to interrupt the bulletin board conversation, but I'm getting ready to make some baked potatoes and wanted to do it in the microwave. But I'm not really sure how to do it, or how long to leave them in. Can you help?


"Oh, no problem.  It's very important that you wrap them in aluminum foil first, very tightly. Then set the timer for 10 minutes and you should be fine".


"Oh, thank you so much!  You Christians are such wonderful people, and so helpful too".


"No problem, any time. Have a wonderful meal".

[Joe Sperling]

"I followed the instructions you gave below. The fire department just left, and luckily they haven't declared the house a total loss. But the kitchen is definitely a goner, and several of the rooms were burned very badly. Somehow I feel that perhaps the instructions you gave me were defective in some manner. The house has such an overwhelming smell of smoke that it is hard to continue to live in the one room that was not touched by the fire.
Do you have any suggestions as to how to get rid of the strong smoke smell?"

"Why yes, I do. Begin in the room that was not effected by the fire. Take a can of hair spray, then flick a cigarette lighter so that the flame appears. Aim the hairspray nozzle towards the burning flame and spray, preferrably towards a sofa or chair. Hair spray has a content in it that is released into the air when burnt, and will diffuse the smoke smell immediately."

"Why thank you. I'm sure the fire was just a fluke. Once again, I have to say you Christians are such helpful and wonderful people, who lovingly consider others before themselves".

"No problem. I hope that smoke smell goes away quickly, and have a great day".