deeper life and scriptural interpretation

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

I had a similar experience when reading the "Normal Christian Life" and really felt for a time I had "nailed it" and finally "learned" Romans 6. I went around really excited and told everyone the book was wonderful and that Watchman Nee was a great teacher. Unfortunately (as can be expected with any "quick fix" scheme) I eventually realized I was still the same person with all of the same faults and failures, and this "mystical" book had really done nothing for me. When I say "quick fix" I mean anything that seems "too good to be true"--because invariably, they  always ARE  "too good to be true".

Over the years I've seen there are a couple of ways to look at Romans 6.  And they both involve a different perception of God.  There is one way where we realize that Romans 6 is a "fact", but we see it as some "mystical formula" for greater spirituality. We concerntrate on the formula, on our sin, and on an impatient God who keeps asking why we "don't get it and put it into action!!??" This leads to more and more failure and frustration, as we look heavenward to a foot-tapping, irritated God who is getting awfully close to shutting the door on us for failing in the same manner over and over again. We fall onto our knees in despairing tears at our inability to appease this God through our efforts to put Romans 6 into "action". We look for "quick fixes" (like "The Normal Christian Life") because our time may be short, and God is getting awfully upset at our ineptness, and may not have much more patience with us.   We walk along like those monks in Monty Python's "Holy Grail", who sing somberly in Latin, and every few steps hit themselves over the head with a board they are carrying, only to continue the song and the same head smacking process.

Then there is the other view. When we realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE that Jesus Christ could have risen from the dead had not ALL OF OUR SINS, PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE been forgiven for eternity, we look at God differently. When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" he really meant it. If there were ANY sin that I could not be forgiven for, Jesus could not have risen from the dead ( if any sin was left unconquered and unpaid for he could not have risen triumphantly). This is a FACT. When I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior he forgave ALL MY SINS forever. Romans 6 is a FACT, but it isn't some "formula" ---it is a REALITY. The more that I see that God loves me and has forgiven me and accepts me JUST AS I AM WITH ALL OF MY SINFUL FAILINGS, the less sin seems to have power, because I am looking at a God who loves me dearly. And I am so grateful for this, that the desire to love God and thank him for what has been done ALREADY replaces a desire to try to please him with "my performance".  Of course, I WILL and DO sin---I would be a liar if I said differently. But the realization that Jesus died for me even when I was still a sinner, and still loves me exactly the same way, and for all eternity, fills me with joy and thankfulness. The desire to please him begins to severely outweigh the desire to sin, when I realize he is not standing there looking upon me impatiently, but is rejoicing that he paid the price for me, and has his arms open to receive me to himself for all of eternity. Some would say "believing all sins are forgiven past, present and future would only cause one to sin more, because you believe no matter what you do you are forgiven".  But this is not the case if one has been touched by the Grace of God and see how much he truly loves you!! It actually has an opposite effect!! The attraction of love for God begins to outweigh any attraction to sin!

I remember many, many times collapsing on my knees in tears and asking "God--why don't you give me the power to overcome like you give to others? Why did you create me if I can't overcome?" etc. etc. --- I was literally blaming God for not giving me the ability to do what he "required". I saw God as standing there, tapping his foot with impatience, shaking his head, because I was so far from being an "overcomer". I would literally dissolve into tears of hopelessness. But always, a still small voice would put this same verse into my head over and over again: "There is none righteous, no not one". I didn't understand at first, but then began to realize that none can "please" God through any type of performance, or by putting some "formula" into action. The Holy Spirit was telling me that Jesus paid it ALL--and to see the greatness of Romans 6 you need to read Romans 8, and see how there is NOTHING THAT CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS THE LORD.

The result of trying to put Romans 6 into action through some "formula" based on our own "performance" is Romans 7. The result of seeing that there is nothing we can possibly do to please God, and seeing that he loves us no matter what,  is Romans 8. One perception leads to grief and despair, the other perception to unspeakable joy and gratefulness to God for what he has done for us.  "There is none righteous, no not one" ---but Praise God "IT IS FINISHED".

I remember in the Assembly an oft said statment was "I haven't arrived yet" when speaking of Spiritual growth and maturity, as though it was something WE could accomplish. Thank God we don't need to "try" to "arrive"----Jesus sees us as "seated with him in the Heavenlies" ALREADY. In HIS EYES we are already there---becasue HE already arrived, We have already(in his eyes) arrived also. "When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall we also appear with him in Glory"(Col 3).

[Mark C.]

Re. deeper life, etc.

 Verne and Joe,

   Both your posts' seem to come to the same conclusion re. the consequences of "deeper life" teaching: trying to become more spiritual through ones own force of will (even when changing the word "will" to "faith", and thus transforming God's true meaning of trust in Him).

   "Deeper Life" teaching attempts to bring glory to those who by virtue of their knowledge and strength of will are better at being a Christian; grace becomes a secret resource that is only released in those that have the ability to push the right buttons.

   The teachers of this notion are like those who run get-rich-scheme seminars that promise millions to those that come and learn their "secrets."  The only one getting rich are those who run the scam!

  As with the above scam, GG tried to proffer spiritual riches for the price of our dedicated loyalty to his ministry.  We had our hands on a plough allright, but it was labor involved in building GG's empire for his ego! 

   While it is important in our character development to be involved in good purpose that advances God's will (the plough), I think some former members may be fearful that their good intentions could be misused again, as in past involvement with GG.  I know that I am very careful now in what and who's field I'm plowing in.  I also think it's important for former members to know that they don't have to "get busy" in service or else they will fall victim to their own selfish sinful tendencies (I know you are not saying this Verne).

   "We are saved by hope," and I take that to mean our daily living is more successful when we see God the way Joe describes in his post, vs. the self measurement methods that focuses on methods to "achieve higher life."

  I am content now to admit that I owe everything to what God has given me and am happy to let Him have every single bit of glory for any good that I might do in his service.  Not because I am especially free of my ego due to "entering into" my redemption, but just because it is an inescapable fact!

  As to "being accountable":  I suspect some former members might have some difficulty with this phrase as well.  It will take a considerable amount of trust building for many to be able to just open up about struggles they might be having.  They might also be a bit doubtful of those offering "expert" advice on how to deal with these difficulties.

   I think God recognizes where we are at and is not anxious for us to replace our Assembly "service" with a new form of "sanctified labor."  A hopeful and happy attitude that springs from trust in a loving God can do a whole lot more to advance God's will in this world than AM times, involvement in church, or any other Christian work done under a sense of guilt.

                                                      God bless,  Mark C. 

[vernecarty]

.  I know that I am very careful now in what and who's field I'm plowing in.  I also think it's important for former members to know that they don't have to "get busy" in service or else they will fall victim to their own selfish sinful tendencies (I know you are not saying this Verne).

I have to say a very hearty "amen" to this.
I have not been disappointed only by my assembly experience, but as some of you know we left the CMA organization a few years ago because of blatant corruption and compromise in the Midwest Distirct.
At that time I said to myself  - "I have had enough of trying to serve... it is nothing but a heartache."
I suspect the Lord knew we needed respite and so arranged our departure and the time of rest and reflection has been so valuable.

Having said all this, I am now more convinced than ever that we as Christians will never come to spiritual maturity unless we allow God to use us in the service of His kingdom.
I would even go further and say that our maturity depends upon it.
While we do have to be careful about how, where, and to what we commit ourselves, true joy, real contentment and entrance into true sonship and spiritual authority lies in a relentless pursuit of such good works as God has ordained for each of us.
I was recently asked to teach the book of Nehemiah for adult Sunday school and a loud "no way" was already forming on my lips when the Lord so clearly said to me;
Break's over... Get busy...!
My point in all this?
You will find the temptations of carnal vices to be nothing but child's play when compared to the kind of struggle that will be engaged when you purpose to serve the Almighty...think about it....
Verne





   

[outdeep]

   "Deeper Life" teaching attempts to bring glory to those who by virtue of their knowledge and strength of will are better at being a Christian; grace becomes a secret resource that is only released in those that have the ability to push the right buttons.

I don't think I have ever heard an explanation of "deeper life" quite so succinctly.  This quoted statement really nails it!

-Dave

[Oscar]

Folks,

Here is a quote taken from Watchman Nee's "Two Principles of Conduct".

One of the most serious misconceptions among the children of God is that actions are determined by right and wrong. They do what their eyes tell them is right: they do what their background tells them is right: they do what their years of experience tell them is right. For a Christian, every decision should be based on the inner life, and that is something totally different from all else. I yearn that you should come to see that a Christian should arrive at no decision other than that which is dictated by life. If the life within you rises to do a thing, then it is right for you to do it: if the life within shrinks back when you advance, then you should immediately call a halt.

Notice that Nee taught that "...If the life within you rises to do a thing, then it is right for you to do it."

Need we inquire further for GG's justification for his adulteries? 

Am I exaggerating?  Nee also says...

What is Christianity? Christianity is a matter of life. If you are a Christian, then you posses a new life; and when you have to decide on a course of action, you do not ask, Would it be right to do this? You ask, If I do this, how will it affect my inner life? How will that new life within me react to this? It is a most amazing thing that the objective of so many Christians is only conformity to an external standard, though what God has given us by new birth is not a lot of new rules and regulations to which we are required to conform. He has not brought us to a new Sinai and given us a new set of commandments with their “Thou shalt” and “Thou shalt not.” Christianity does not require that we investigate the rights and wrongs of alternative courses of action, but that we test the reaction of the divine life to any proposed course. As a Christian you now possess the life of Christ, and it is the reactions of His life that you have to consider. If, when you contemplate any move, there is a rise of life within you to make that move; if there is a positive response from the inner life; if there is “the anointing” within (See I John 2:20,27); then you can confidently pursue the proposed course. The inner life has indicated that. But if, when you contemplate a certain move, the inner life begins to languish, then you may know that the move you contemplated should be avoided, however commendable it may seem to be.

Notice especially that Nee said:

Christianity does not require that we investigate the rights and wrongs of alternative courses of action, but that we test the reaction of the divine life to any proposed course.

In other words if you feel like doing it, do it.  Nee's principle of "life" overrules good and evil, according to Nee.

I once asked GG about this booklet by Nee.  I asked him "is this true?"  His reply was equivocal..."Let's not make a man an offender for a word."  He didn't say yes...and he didn't say no. 

Now I think I know why.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

I must say I am a bit perplexed. It appears that there is a move on the BB to disparage the blessed teachings from "Two Principles of Conduct" by Watchman Nee.

"If the life within you rises to do a thing, then it is right for you to do it".

"If, when you contemplate any move, there is a rise of life within you to make that move, if there is a positive response from the inner life; if there is "the annointing" within (see 1 John 2:20-22), then you can confidently pursue the proposed course. The inner life has indicated that".

These quotes are blessed my friends, and if they weren't true, would there be quotes, such as the following from Bessie Wilkinson of Bensonville, Arkansas? :

"Dear Reverend Burt,

The minute I heard about the Miraculous Holy Toothpicks, I felt a movement, a movement in my spirit, like the very voice of the Lord, telling me I needed to send a donation today, not just for the toothpicks, but for the amazing  Miracle Dental Floss also. I felt the very annointing you were talking about Dear Reverend, and knew in my spirit, God was telling me to give a love offering to his blessed servant. The call was so strong, and so effectual, I had to put my donation in an envelope and mail it right away!!  Please receive my love offering Reverend, and may God richly bless you and your ministry."

Dear friends, do you feel this same annointing? Do you sense the same movement in your spirit? Don't let the naysayers turn you back my friends, "if the life within you rises to do a thing, then it is right for you to do it". Just ask Bessie--she rose to the occasion, and she was richly blessed!! You can be too. Friends, the Holy Toothpicks are going fast, but you can still take advantage of this gift from Heaven. Send your love gift, for $50.00 ($100.00 if you would like the miraculous dental floss) or more, today. I'm sure you can feel the voice of the Lord moving your spirit to give today. Thank you friends for being obedient to the annointing, and to the direction and purpose of God you know is coming from within.

Reverend Burt O 'Leary
2222 Kingsbury Lane
Barstow, Ca., 92233

(no personal checks please)

[vernecarty]

Notice especially that Nee said:
In other words if you feel like doing it, do it.  Nee's principle of "life" overrules good and evil, according to Nee.


Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

When a person becomes so spiritually self-assured that they no longer consider their viewpoint to be subject to the teaching of God's Word,(and I have heard some take that position of disparaging the place of Scripture in constraining our view on doctrine), they really are indeed left with nothing but "feelings".
I do understand that some folk are convinced that they somehow have the faculty of direct communication with God( inner life) but that view is fraught with danger when not examined in the clear light of Scripture. One can easily see how this kind of thinking can lead to justification of the worst kind of sinful conduct...
Verne

p.s. Nee's statement about "if the life within you rises to do a thing..." seems very much akin to the "burning in the bosom" taught my Mormons...quite interesting...

[moonflower2]

Re. deeper life, etc.

    "Deeper Life" teaching attempts to bring glory to those who by virtue of their knowledge and strength of will are better at being a Christian; grace becomes a secret resource that is only released in those that have the ability to push the right buttons.

                                                      God bless,  Mark C. 

And thus we have the axiom of the local assembly put into words.......

Thanks Mark,

Moonflower

[Margaret]

Wow, Tom, these are amazing quotes. Would you mind if I add your post to the ga.com piece on Nee? George's answer was diabolically clever. Without explicitly passing judgment, he disqualified the booklet so no-one else would get any ideas and ruin the image of his perfect ministry, but left the door open for himself. So far as I know, he had Nee's stuff removed from the book table. Does anyone know anything about that?

[Oscar]

Margaret,

Regarding this: "Would you mind if I add your post to the ga.com piece on Nee?"

Not at all. 

Tom M.

[outdeep]

This discussion reminds me how prone I was to believe things when presented with authority by a respected teacher.  The statements by Nee remind me of a Chinese sister who came to the Assembly for a time.  She once was involved in a Little Flock in Taiwan.  One day she asked an older sister her name and the sister replied, “My name is not important.  The only thing important is Christ.”

It is akin to Baigt Sing’s (sp?)infamous reply when asked if he wanted seconds, “my god is not my stomach!”

When coming from authority figures who seem to us to know that they are taking about, it is easy to believe that these statements are highly spiritual and insightful.  Even though, as a spiritual simpleton, I don’t quite get it.  Few people who have already decided to respect these teachers will step back and say, “You know what?  What he just said is a bunch of nonsense!”

To the young, aspiring believer (or one who has already committed to reverence Nee), Nee’s statement seems like there is really something really there.  1)  As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit in us.  2)  This Spirit is living.  3)  If this Spirit is living, it would direct us.  4)  If the Spirit is directing us, we don’t have to worry about making moral decisions because that will be taken care of by the living Spirit’s leading 5) Therefore, I don’t have to worry about right or wrong, just “life”.

When I was a young believer who really wanted anything the Lord has to offer, I would lap this stuff up.  It is only now as a middle-aged man who has been around the block a few times that I can say, “you know what?  You just don’t see folks in the New Testament living that way!”

I don’t think Nee and Geftakys believed these things in order to justify their sins.  I think they honestly believed their own baloney.  Nevertheless, it was their baloney that made it difficult for them to see their sin.

[Margaret]

I'm not sure they "honestly" believed their own baloney. It seems more likely, at least in George's case, that his narcissism inclined him to believe this stuff. But narcissism is built on lies to oneself about oneself. So it wouldn't be a case of examining the scriptures and studying the doctrine to objectively and honestly come to the conclusion of believing it. It would be more a case of being delighted at the discovery of this teaching, because it was exactly what he wanted to believe.

I wonder what you all think about George's situation now. Is it because he still believes these things that he doesn't repent (i.e. it wasn't sin because the holy spirit was leading him)?

[outdeep]

Hey, don't make me an offender for a word 


Seriously, your point is well taken.  "Honestly" is not the best choice of words.  What I meant to express is that I don't think George was thinking "I know this stuff is patently false but I am going to act like I believe it to justify my affair."

I think in his pathology, he really believed that what he was teaching was truth just like Hitler believed that Germans were a superior race.

As for now, I would guess that George believes that he was persecuted for the truth.

Obviously, I don't know but that is my guess.

[vernecarty]

I wonder what you all think about George's situation now. Is it because he still believes these things that he doesn't repent (i.e. it wasn't sin because the holy spirit was leading him)?

People like Gefakys and Nee are enigmatic.
Based on their bahaviour, one has to conclude that they fit the Sciriptural category of the false teacher.
I don't know whether Nee repented or not but if he was indeed a false teacher he probably did not.
If George is, he won't. He cannot.
It is not clear to me whether or not these kinds of men are indeed saved. I know folk are quick to raise all kinds of protest about how George preached the Word and started assemblies et al but any reasoning that adduces such matters as evidence of his salvation is fallacious, as Matthew 7:22,23 make abundantly clear.
It is interesting to me that Peter compares the conduct of the false teacher to that of Balaam, who apparently was indeed a real prophet.
The destiny outlined for a false teacher however does not seem consistent with that of a redeemed individual...it is possible that Geftakys is not saved, in which case a failure to repent is no surprise.
Verne

p.s has anyone over the long years of George's acquaintance ever seen him repent of anything?!

[Mark C.]

Margaret's question re. GG:

 "I wonder what you all think about George's situation now.  Is it because he still believes these things that he doesn't repent(i.e. it wasn't sin because the Holy Spirit was leading him)?

  I have often thought it would be interesting to have a conversation with GG regarding what he actually thinks about re. where he is at with God.  I rather expect it would be similar in trying to converse with someone like Mike Almanzor who still sees GG as "God's servant."

  When Mike A. was questioned by a former Valley Assembly member re. why he still stood by GG his answers were incredible!  The Valley questioner asked Mike re. GG's refusal to repent and admit his dalliances with 2 sisters.  Mike's responses:  "No", he corrected, "it was actually 5 sisters."  "But", he said, "George was not given a fair trial, and under the circumstances it was not Biblical because GG could not face his accusers."

  In other words, Mike knew full well that GG had done these things, but because of some kind of a legal technicality Mike had devised he felt GG needed to be left off the hook?!  How does a mind develop such a rationalization?

  The human psyche has an incredible ability to escape what it doesn't want to see or hear.  We can harden our hearts against painful admissions re. ourselves, and the more we continue to do so make our conscience immune to the obvious facts of our sin.  It is my belief that GG has traveled long down that road of hardness of heart and I don't think it is humanly possible to recover him now. 

  As to whether "overcomer" teaching made him this way, or that he was simply attracted to it because it fit his already proud and dishonest heart?  I have a feeling it was little bit of each.

  I know of a pastor from a church in Temecula who taught a good clear Gospel and probably didn't even know what "higher life" teaching was.  He did not lord it over the flock, and seemed to be a sincere and honest man.  However, he had a secret life:  He was married, but had a hankering for teen girls and was discovered to have molested several young girls at the church. 

  He's in prison now, and I wonder what he might think (GG, I believe, is destined for a worse result). But, in this pastor's case, he allowed his strong sinful desires to overpower what he clearly knew was wrong.  As long as he was able to get away with it without getting caught his compulsions overcame (a different version of overcomer teaching ) his moral sensitivity.

  GG, throughout his life, has always managed to escape facing the devastating penalties that others, like the pastor above, had to face.  Betty protects him in his sin, fools like Mike Almanzor with his OJ defense, WLA "saints' who invite him to their worship and weddings, and ridiculous enablers like those Assemblies still "accepting GG as the Lord's Servant"!!

   Myself, for my part, I also enabled GG at one time.  By simply being a member of the Assembly and cowering in fear at the thought of expressing my doubts re. how GG treated others.   Yes, Assembly evil did eventually lead to me taking off, but when I first left I felt the need to cover-up much of what I knew to be true.  Why?  I doubted my own judgment (was I really deceived and of the Devil, etc?). 

  It may have been possible, but we will never know, that if GG had not had those defenders (Betty, Mike Almanzor, WLA, etc.) that the discipline he received at the hands of those Fullerton leaders might have been effective in working repentance in his life?  Is that not the intended purpose of discipline in the church--to work just such a redemptive goal?

  So, we, as former members, have some responsibility in having made GG strong in his sinful delusions, and our loyal devotion to his teaching and practices enabled him in his hardened state!   Without our support he may have finally been forced to consider that he had some serious problems and honestly sought help.

  It seems that sin must be dealt with directly, without beating about the bush, or it can get such a foot hold in a life that it can overpower our better moral sense (while we still have it) and lead to deep denial of it in our lives.  Having a good theology by itself won't help a whole lot.  Having a practical understanding of how grace works in the human heart in real life might serve us better.

  1.) We, though saved, are still sinners and are just as human as the next guy.

   2.) It's okay to be honest about who we really are and our failures (those former members who still defend the practices in the group and deny their participation in it's evil are not honest).

     3) We need a Christian friend whom we can openly talk to ("confession is good for the soul") about all these sinful tendencies we still have.         

     4) Jesus is our very best and truest friend who loves us dearly--- we can come to Him.

                                                             God Bless,  Mark C.