A NEW THREAD - Cults are more common than I thought

[just me]

My family just met a new family in town.  They have only been here a few months.  When pressed on why they moved across country (grandma, grandpa, mom, dad and 4 kids) they said something about a bad church experience.  Wow!  That sounded familiar.  They went on to describe legalism, a one man show, a small no growth group and finally a sexual scandal that woke them up to leave.  Then after they left the church they were accussed of "being in the dark" and continually harassed by phone and visits.  So they decided to move 3,000 miles and start over.  Now they claim that they feel "so free". 

Sound familiar?  And they weren't assemblyites.  Their group was some pentecostal church but with almost all the same rules and standards we had.  And the same darkness.

They, of course, were shocked to find that we had had a similar experience.  We sat around for hours trading stories about the ridiculous standards we were under.  The wife said, "there was a competition as to who would return to the meetings the fastest after having a baby."  Sound familiar? and "you always had to have one family member at the meeting so they could pass on the message". 

I think it was healing for both families to be able to laugh together about our extremisms.  We also are in similar places in our distrust of local churches, pastors and even our own faith.

What is my point?  We assemblyites aren't the only people who fell in a hole unwittingly.  There are probably thousands of others like us.  And we and others are moving on.  Sharing a common experience helps to put things in perspective.  I think.

Me.

[Elizabeth H]

Hi Me.

I had a similar experience about a year ago. I got to know a mom who lived nearby and eventually we got to talking about churches. She ended up describing to me her church experience which had so many remarkable similarities, I couldn't believe it WASN'T the assembly. Legalism, one-upmanship, hypocrisy and topped off by sexual scandal...the same old story.

It was a truly affirming experience for me. There's something so healing about knowing you're not the only one who has experienced the same kind of spiritual shipwreck. What was remarkable about this mom was that her faith remained intact. She had been out a few more years than I had, so she'd had more time to "process." Meeting her gave me a strong shot of hope.

Here's the other similarity: her church was also a non-denominational church. Do you think non-denoms are more prone to this kind of break-up than the more traditionally organized denominations? Maybe there's no connection, I mean, the most organized church of all--the Roman Catholic church---has its fair share of scandals....

Maybe there is no such thing as fool-proof, scandal-proof church? 

E.

[Oscar]

One night Caryl and I were sitting on a bench in downtown Fullerton, watching the squirting fountain they have installed in the patio area west of the museum.

A younger couple approached us and began to "witness" to us about being faithful to God and obeying his word by fellowshipping in the manner and place God desires us to.

Turned out it was the LA Church of Christ, which shares many of the Assembly ideas.

We told them that we had been there, done that, and were not interested.

Sure was weird being approached like that.  We got to hear how it sounds from the other end.

Thomas Maddux

[just me]

Well I'm happy to know that I can laugh with almost strangers about it now.  I think it's healthy to be able to see your own deficit and laugh at yourself.  We were agreeing that our cult groups only stayed at about 300 people because the rest of the Christian world is smarter, more emotionally stable and more discerning than we were.  We were of the minority of people who actually NEEDED this kind of wacko group to meet some kind of need in our own lives.  But we've gotten smarter in the process.

The problem I have now is that I see threads of control and legalism in every church I've visited since.  I've become too cautious and suspicious of all the super-Chrisitans, homeschool fanatics, "serious" Christions etc. because they all smack of the narrowminded that we left behind.  On the other hand, I find Christian church goers who are gamblers, partiers etc. the rest of the time; therefore they aren't "real" enough for my limited judgment.  What does that leave?

Me

[Jem]

I had an interesting lunch with a pastor and his wife yesterday. He has been given a new position within his denomination as their go-to guy for healthy churches. Their congregations are large in urban areas, but many are small churches in rural areas (Indiana/Pennsilvania). I asked him what he looks for as the first warning signs that a church is unhealthy. He said a controlling leader and/or family.

He also said, "If you have a congregation that is 10 maybe 20 years old and it's been that long since they've seen someone come to Christ, or even a new person coming to the church, there's something wrong." He then quoted our pastor's Sunday message where he said, "Some people speak of quality and some of quantity. Both are important. If someone is over-much about quality and there is no quantity (no new growth) then something is wrong."

When we got to talking about my aberrant past he had heard of the assemblies and just said, "Wow, sorry!" Then asked tongue-in-cheek if we wouldn't mind being the poster family for what they are trying to avoid.

Just me, for finding "threads of control and legalism" in all the churches you've gone to, I hear ya. It's out there. That's one of the reasons we enjoy a big church. The leadership is unusually uncontrolling and the families that are are easy to avoid. They don't last long either.

[Elizabeth H]

I asked him what he looks for as the first warning signs that a church is unhealthy. He said a controlling leader and/or family.

He also said, "If you have a congregation that is 10 maybe 20 years old and it's been that long since they've seen someone come to Christ, or even a new person coming to the church, there's something wrong." He then quoted our pastor's Sunday message where he said, "Some people speak of quality and some of quantity. Both are important. If someone is over-much about quality and there is no quantity (no new growth) then something is wrong."

Just me, for finding "threads of control and legalism" in all the churches you've gone to, I hear ya. It's out there. That's one of the reasons we enjoy a big church. The leadership is unusually uncontrolling and the families that are are easy to avoid. They don't last long either.

Hi Jem. yeah, that is so true! Whenever I hear either quantity or quality being over-emphasized, I get a little squeamish. My measure is: is it balanced? I know there will always be a few overly zealous types in the mix, as long as it is just a FEW and as long as they are not in a controlling capacity. I like to see old folks, new growth young college kids, young families--basically I like to see diversity.

We also attend a big church and I like it that way because it's never once been intrusive. Sometimes you feel a little anonymous, but I'd rather be anonymous than be sucked in, ya know?

When I was in college, I used to get approached by LA Church of Christ people all the time. It was so creepy to be "witnessed" to in the same kind of way as the assembly method. One time I was walking to class and I kid you not, this girl comes up to me and says:

"Hey, I really like your shoes!"

I say, "Oh, thanks." And keep walking. Well, she kept up with me and that's how I knew something fishy was going on. Sure enough, she launched into the LA Church of Christ version of the one-minute gospel. Basically I wasn't saved unless I had been baptised into the LACC, Jesus wanted "real" disciples not luke-warm disciples, and it was "awesome" to be serving Jesus as a 100% sold-out disciple.

It was very surreal. She could have been me. I had done what she was doing countless times. Hopefully, with a better starting line! But that was the first time I realized how I sounded to other people when I went witnessing. I felt this odd mixture of pity & revulsion for this poor girl who was witnessing to me. And then I became completely ashamed of myself. How haughty and patronizing I must have sounded when I went witnessing, how disgustingly know-it-all. UGH! I started avoiding Book Table and campus witnessing times after that. I just couldn't stomach it anymore.

That was one of many wake-up calls for me.

[just me]

Ok.  So you guys say big church is the current solution.  So what do you do about the pastor or pastors who are THE MAN?  Everything revolves around THE PASTOR at big churches.  He gets the credit, attention, kudos, you name it.  We recently heard of paster so and so and how great it is that he is going down south to help Katrina victims.  What a guy!  But does bro. Jo in the back pew get the same noteriety for his service?  It just seems like it's all about THE MAN in big churches.  And then there is the talk about yielding to the authority of the pastor/s!!!  When I hear that, I'm out the door.

It's true you can disappear in big churches.  But I also find it hard to find a balance between clergy and laity in big churches.  Oh and they seem to have bigger programs too; if you know what I mean -- like huge choirs, symphony orchestras, 3 or 4 praise bands (which may or may not be any good), so you get a variety of strange entertainment on a Sunday.

Ok I know I'm being super picky.  But I really would like comments on how you handle these difficulties.

And the lady I met who was in the Pentecostal cult -- she was in for 45 years!  So those of you on other threads, stop getting after us for staying for 20+ years and not doing anything about it.  Sometimes it takes a scandal to wake you up to all of the other foul garbage.

my opinion only
me

[Elizabeth H]

Me,

I don't know if it's THE solution, but it's just one. My closest family and friends ask me all the time: "So, Elizabeth, what's your new religion-of-the-month?" After we left the Assembly, I went into a major experimental mode. I was reading books on the Amish, chatting on Mennonite message boards, attending Catholic Masses, I  did some yoga. Smorgasboard delight!

I was searching. I still am. No matter where I go, however, I do have the basic building blocks intact and they act as my filter. When I listen to preaching now I never take notes. I just keep my ears and mind open, letting it sift through. Some things I discard, other things I keep. I look for balance. I look for the Word & the Spirit.

Like this BB, sometimes you get a lot of nonsense, but sometimes, just sometimes there are flashes of genuine insight.

Did that help, or did I just make it more confusing? 

[Jem]

Hey Me,

Yeah, that THE pastor stuff can be annoying, but I have found at our church that most of the blame for that falls on the people and not THE MAN. The pastors at our place go by their names not their titles, but some people insist on saying, "Pastor Mark..." In fact, last Sunday Mark was teaching, AGAIN, on the problems with that.

I was in Willowcreek in Chicago in the spring (well in April and it still looked a lot like winter) and some people there struggle with Bill Hybels worship, so he himself has to fight that all the time. One thing they do is have teaching pastors so Bill is just a guy in the rotation. But I think the clergy/laity thing is a sort of inbred American tradition that we have to rise above by good teaching.

I also think we need to rethink what the Bible teaches for ourselves. After the Fall, we easily shed some bad teaching we recieved, but we retain some "unawares" which is the difficult part of being decieved, eh? If we were in any leadership capacity in the assembly we also need to anaylize whether or not we don't appreciate THE MAN because he ain't us.

Liz, I can't really see you as an Amish wife. And if you reply to this feel free to call me 'honey' even though I am half you age;)

[2ram]

.....
I also think we need to rethink what the Bible teaches for ourselves. After the Fall, we easily shed some bad teaching we recieved, but we retain some "unawares" which is the difficult part of being decieved, eh? If we were in any leadership capacity in the assembly we also need to anaylize whether or not we don't appreciate THE MAN because he ain't us. .....

Thanks Jem.  I like that perspective.

Marcia

[Jem]

Liz,

Sorry, that should have read...ummm...ouch...twice your age!

[just me]

Jem,
I appreciate your ability to look beyond all of the "stuff" and find the value in individuals and messages.  I still seem to evaluate the whole package.  It's true that there are sincere, decent, down-home pastors out there, but the package that is presented is hard to look beyond.  I'm sure I need to look beyond -- to the message and the individual.

I appreciate your point about wanting to be THE MAN.  Because I'm sure that my critical spirit (developed so well in the assembly) that finds fault with everything comes from a position of "knowing" better (ha).

I also think that part of my/our problem is the lack of variety of churches that are in our town.  We've tried baptist, John McArthurism, calvary offshoot, and nazarene.  The people in every group are like I described below: either extreme homeschoolers, or ladies with breast implants and mini skirts.  Maybe I need to move to a new town to find moderate but sincere Chrsitians?!

Elizabeth,
I can't believe you sampled all of those things post-assembly and still have a solid core belief!  Especially since you were fed assemblyism since birth.  How did your faith remain so balanced and intact?  Did you ever throw it all off and re-evaluate?  That's where I have found myself mostly: rejecting and trying to reestablish.  I'm still kind of sowing my wild oats though and enjoying it.  You know; clothes, alcohol, playing on Sundays -- my smorgasbord doesn't have much to do with church.

me

[Elizabeth H]

  The people in every group are like I described below: either extreme homeschoolers, or ladies with breast implants and mini skirts.  Maybe I need to move to a new town to find moderate but sincere Chrsitians?!

Elizabeth,
I can't believe you sampled all of those things post-assembly and still have a solid core belief!  Especially since you were fed assemblyism since birth.  How did your faith remain so balanced and intact?  Did you ever throw it all off and re-evaluate?  That's where I have found myself mostly: rejecting and trying to reestablish.  I'm still kind of sowing my wild oats though and enjoying it.  You know; clothes, alcohol, playing on Sundays -- my smorgasbord doesn't have much to do with church.

me

Lol, me. I totally know what you mean about the abundance of cleavage & visible thongs. It completely floored me at first. But then I got over it. Hey, at least they're in church, right? And also, if I'm going to be honest, some of these women looked really great! Tanned, in good shape, smiling. What's better: happy women with breast implants or dour, depressed, overly burdened women "rejoicing in the Lord." (other posters: I'm just horsin' around here, I know the two are not mutually exclusive, so don't start lecturing me!)

Living in SoCal we see a lot more plastic enhancements than in more conservative states, I suspect.

How did I maintain my faith? I'll pm you about that. In a nutshell: God held me up. Everything else failed, but God was still there. I had found Him long before the system crashed.

I tried alcohol when we first got out. I don't particularly like it. I haven't acquired the taste for it. Probably started drinking too late in life. Sometimes I can stomach a teeny, tiny glass of wine, but usually I just stick to coffee & other radically caffeinated drinks. 

But boy do I love clothes!! oh yeah! And hair color and lipstick and perfume, pierced ears and dangly earrings and don't get me started on shoes, glorious shoes!! wheeeeeeee!

[mithrandir]

I read this thread with great interest and enjoyment.  I too feel a lot like "just me".  I am going to a Lutheran church right now.  I am most definitely not Lutheran, because I still believe that one must repent and believe in order to be saved, wheras Lutheran doctrine teaches that faith comes from being baptized ... even if you're a baby when you are baptized.  Nevertheless, I like this Lutheran church because they don't have a praise band gyrating in front of the congregation and cranking out music at 100 decibels while we all sing, "Lord, I just wanna lift my hands..." over and over.  They don't have elderly women handing out "Christian Voter Guides" as you leave the sanctuary.  They don't have a bunch of loud, high-pressure programs to cram down my throat.  Their pastors aren't trying to sell their latest books, nor is the organist trying to hawk her latest CD.  Their liturgy seems as timeless to me as sunrise and sunset, the cycle of the seasons.  Even though I often feel like the odd man out even there, yet they are easy on my nerves. 

And right now, that's a big criterion for me when choosing a church.  I think one thing that's wrong with some of the evangelical churches out there is that they are driven solely by the desire to get as many members as possible.  So they will do anything they can to achieve this goal - even if it is pushy or not in good taste.  And I think that many evangelical churches are simply part of a big business.  I told one retired evangelical pastor about my assembly experience and my present attitude toward church, and he began to rebuke me, saying that I had "a trust problem."  Wrong move, buddy!  I tried another evangelical church where it seemed like the elders were almost ordering people to get into their "grace groups."  I don't order people anymore.  And no one is going to do it to me.

As far as feeling like the odd man out, I've just decided that I've got to be myself.  And rather than looking for "like-minded brethren" by trying to join "the right church", I've got to be open to good, quality friendships wherever I can find them.  This has been difficult...

Clarence Thompson

[2ram]

.....
As far as feeling like the odd man out, I've just decided that I've got to be myself.  And rather than looking for "like-minded brethren" by trying to join "the right church", I've got to be open to good, quality friendships wherever I can find them.  This has been difficult...

Clarence Thompson

Clarence,

I found this to be difficult too.  People had made their friendships during the years I was devoting to the assembly, so I do feel like the odd man out sometimes.  Though everyone's really nice and all.  I also had to re-evaluate what 'friendship' is all about.  In the assembly it was like we were dependant on each other, but now I am dependant on the Lord and enjoy the fellowship of other believers.

Marcia