A NEW THREAD - Cults are more common than I thought

[just me]

I agree, friendships are very difficult.  Everyone has their friends from High School, college, young marrieds bible study, family and they are all set in stone.  I, on the other hand, dissed everyone from High School.  My college friends were assembly people and those friendships failed.  I think it must take years now to establish good friendships -- I mean beyond acquaintances.  But then again, what do we expect from friendships?  Someone to make your dinner and clean your house on a moments notice 'cuz your sick?  Maybe that doesn't happen in the real word.

Ok.  What about controlling people.  Have you had your first run in (post assembly) with a real control freak?  We have had a coulple and man did it cause a reaction in us.  It was like a major hot button was pushed.  NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO CONTROL ME AGAIN.  I think that is what you were talking about, Clarence.

My husband has this guy at work.  This guy knows EVERYTHING!  He knows what decisions the boss should make on every level and continually tells him.  He has the boss' ear.  He tells the boss everything my husband is doing wrong from my husbands business to his secretary's business to the guy in the next office.  The boss listens.  My husband goes ballistic and starts calling this guy a sociopath like gg and is busy trying to defend himself to everyone in the company.  A bit of an overreaction.  My husband has calmed down but this guy keeps saying that he can't work under these conditions since my husband "hates him" (persecution complex) etc.  We're still waiting for the fall out.

You know who I react to?  Telemarketers and customer service people who tell me how I have to jump throiugh hoops for their service.  Weird.

[al Hartman]

(other posters: I'm just horsin' around here, I know the two are not mutually exclusive, so don't start lecturing me!)

You have got some nerve, trying to tell us who we should and shouldn't start lecturing!  This is an open forum, where freedom of expression is encouraged (or is it freedom of repression?  ...or regression?  I get those all mixed up).  Anyway, if you want to "horse around," you should do it on another thread-- this one is about cults!  See there, now you've gone and made me divert from the topic!
                    (the above message brought to you by the al Hartman iron(y) works)

I also had to re-evaluate what 'friendship' is all about.  In the assembly it was like we were dependant on each other, but now I am dependant on the Lord and enjoy the fellowship of other believers.

About as near-perfect a statement as we have seen in awhile!

[2ram]

This morning I noticed this article on GA.com:

www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyChurch.htm
www.geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/Home.htm#whatsnew

Marcia

I agree, friendships are very difficult.  Everyone has their friends from High School, college, young marrieds bible study, family and they are all set in stone.  I, on the other hand, dissed everyone from High School.  My college friends were assembly people and those friendships failed.  I think it must take years now to establish good friendships -- I mean beyond acquaintances.  But then again, what do we expect from friendships?  Someone to make your dinner and clean your house on a moments notice 'cuz your sick?  Maybe that doesn't happen in the real word.

Ok.  What about controlling people.  Have you had your first run in (post assembly) with a real control freak?  We have had a coulple and man did it cause a reaction in us.  It was like a major hot button was pushed.  NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO CONTROL ME AGAIN.  I think that is what you were talking about, Clarence.

My husband has this guy at work.  This guy knows EVERYTHING!  He knows what decisions the boss should make on every level and continually tells him.  He has the boss' ear.  He tells the boss everything my husband is doing wrong from my husbands business to his secretary's business to the guy in the next office.  The boss listens.  My husband goes ballistic and starts calling this guy a sociopath like gg and is busy trying to defend himself to everyone in the company.  A bit of an overreaction.  My husband has calmed down but this guy keeps saying that he can't work under these conditions since my husband "hates him" (persecution complex) etc.  We're still waiting for the fall out.

You know who I react to?  Telemarketers and customer service people who tell me how I have to jump throiugh hoops for their service.  Weird.

Post-assembly, I have discovered that I have zero tolerance for hypocrisy, not just in churches, but also in families etc.  Families have these mini-cults, where they elevate one parent or individual, and disregard any criticism against that person.  So the one with the guts to actually speak up is alienated in the guise/desire to maintain the peace.  Sound familiar.

Marcia

[Jem]

Not sure which thread to comment on this one, but it seemed right here. We rented The Village and when it was over one of my teenagers said, "That creeped me out." And another one said, "Yeah, because that was a movie about the assembly."

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!


   Great thread and great discussion!

  I just love Clarence's attitude! And I am not trying to be cynical when I say that!     Stick to your guns Clarence! 

   How about the verse that is always quoted to those not committed to a particular church:  "Forsake not the fellowship, etc"?

   How do you deal with the guilty feeling, either self induced or coming from a well-meaning exhorter, that in order to be loyal to God you must be "committed" to a particular church and "submit" yourself to those in spiritual authority?

  Do we have a "trust problem" that we have to work out, or is it that some may have a problem with the defintion of the word trust if it means an unqualified submission to the guy with the biggest bible?

   Great articles at the Assembly Reflections site.  Thank you Margaret and Steve for what you are doing there as I find the articles very relevant and helpful!!!

                                                       God Bless,  Mark C.

[Elizabeth H]

i just discovered a new cult! the Bush administration! 

there's an article in TIME magazine this week about "political cronyism." Many presidents have filled vacant government jobs with political allies, but the Bush administration has apparently practiced this to an exponentially greater degree (witness the embarrassing resignation of FEMA director Browne: a man best known for his knowledge of Arabian horse breeding!).

there have also been White House sources who talk about how the White House is run like a tightly centralized monarchy, how information is tightly controlled, how the President doesn't read the paper, listen to opposing ideas or welcome debate. 

sound familiar?

[Jem]

Elizabeth,

Yeah, if you put it that way it sounds familiar, but what you described is politics as old as the two party system. Every administration runs like that. Clinton, Papa Bush, just keep going back. Politics is compromise. Politics is I-scratch-your-back-you-scratch-mine. When a man finally lands in the White House he has lots of promises and obligations to fulfill. TIME just reported it like it was new. It is a lousy system, but hard to fix. You'd be surprised at the number of Supreme Court justices who got into "the brethren" that way.

You want to see a fanatical, extremist, cultlike personality look at Barbara Boxer. Whoa, dude, there is something to be afraid of.

[Oscar]

Folks,

As Winston Churchill said, Democracy is the worst form of government.....except for all the others.

Thomas Maddux

[Elizabeth H]

Hey Jem.

yeah, I agree with you. I was being sort of facetious in order to make a point. From what I can tell, group behavior and the cult of personality seems to spring up wherever "two or more are gathered"--whether this be in high school (cliques), in the office (favoritism/nepotism), even in such benign groups as Women's Bible Studies. In politics, both parties do this, I agree.

Do you watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart? I love that show---with some exceptions; he can get unnecessarily crude and sometimes scarily irreverant, but I laugh so hard when watching that show. Because hypocrisy and contradictions exist on both sides of the aisle.

In fact, it would seem that being a hypocrite is a pre-requisite for being human. All of us at some point act/speak/behave hypocritically.

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself! I contain multitudes!" Walt Whitman.

 

[Elizabeth H]

Not sure which thread to comment on this one, but it seemed right here. We rented The Village and when it was over one of my teenagers said, "That creeped me out." And another one said, "Yeah, because that was a movie about the assembly."

After I finished watching this movie I realized I had been chewing my fingernails the whole time. My poor fingers were completely battered. Understand that nail-biting is not something I ever do, just never been a habit of mine. But for some reason, this movie sent me straight into oral-fixation mode. Weird.

[moonflower2]

Not sure which thread to comment on this one, but it seemed right here. We rented The Village

The Village? That reminds me of another great series from the 60's with Patrick McGoohan in a place called The Village. That's all the info he was given about where he had been brought. He is continually planning and attemping escapes, to no avail. The only happy ones there seem to have been brainwashed and react in a comical way to his questions.

The name of the series is THE PRISONER.

The comparison to assembly life is comical, tho the series is not a comedy. They are on tape and dvd and are worthwhile viewing even without the assembly comparisons.

[outdeep]

The Village? That reminds me of another great series from the 60's with Patrick McGoohan in a place called The Village. That's all the info he was given about where he had been brought. He is continually planning and attemping escapes, to no avail. The only happy ones there seem to have been brainwashed and react in a comical way to his questions.

The name of the series is THE PRISONER.

The comparison to assembly life is comical, tho the series is not a comedy. They are on tape and dvd and are worthwhile viewing even without the assembly comparisons.

I greatly enjoyed the Village.  In fact, I watched it twice the weekend I rented it.  I think it brings out two things.  For one, it shows folk's desire to create a world that is purer and better than the one they are in.  The desire for community is a very real one and it appeals to our heart.  I can see the attraction of the village.

On the other hand, in order to maintain this world, there had to be a certain measure of deception.  This deception was not to maintain a single person's selfish ambition (I think everyone in the movie had good, though perhaps misguided, motives) but to maintain the vision of the Village and to safeguard future generations.

Many of us spent much time in the Assembly because we saw it as a safe and pure village that protected us from the harsh world outside and was close to God's heart.  We were willing to do our part to maintain the vision (even if we suspected that it wasn't completly true) in order to safeguard the furtherance of our community for ourselves and our family. 

It was when we began to doubt the safety and integrity of the village and question how far we were willing to go to maintain its vision that our hearts began to move us towards the exit and back into the broader world.

[moonflower2]

It was when we began to doubt the safety and integrity of the village and question how far we were willing to go to maintain its vision that our hearts began to move us towards the exit and back into the broader world.

I think the "Prisoner" series would appeal  more to the group of us who were pointing out the holes in the "dome" of the assembly and were hushed up or told that we were the problem and needed to change, and the experiences of those who left, than the group trying to maintain the "holiness" of the assembly.

There was no one whose support the prisoner could gain, no one that he could trust, and no one trusted him. His every move was monitored in every place and function he went, within the village, of course. He was suspect because of what the head honchos, who were protecting their organization, believed to be true, or because of the bogus information they had been fed from other #2 men.
 
Although it depicts life after leaving, or attempting to leave the organization, what goes on portrays the mentality of the mind set of the assembly.

This is from the jacket of the VHS: During production, McGoohan said that the purpose of THE PRISONER was "to create a feeling of unrest about life today. It was an abstract impression of the world we are living in and a warning of what would happen to us when gadgetry and gimmickry take over from creative people."

Rephrased it says: .....It was an abstract impression of the assembly bubble we were living in and a warning of what would happen to us when George and Betty take over.

It's a must see, really.

This series even has a cultish following..............hmmmmmm............maybe the annual worker's seminars involved watching these, for tips on maintaining GG's control 

Oh, yes. And the Village Maxim: Questions are a burden to others; answers, a prison for oneself.   

[just me]

We saw The Village this weekend.  Okay -- it was spooky!  And the spooky stuff took a LONG time to resolve.  That was hard to take.  But the best line in the movie is when the girl talks to the young guy on the road as says something about his kindness and she wasn't expecting to find kindness on the outside. 

Isn't that the best expression of what we find when we come out from the deception?!  After the picture has been painted so bleak and scary for us for all those years, we find out that on the outside is freedom and kindness.  I remember my first year out from the assembly -- just feeling like I could breathe deeper and see more color in the world around me.  It felt sooooo good.

Yesterday my family and I decided that we would try church no. 6 (I think) in our locale, post assembly.  We decided to go to a Calvary Chapel (costa mesa offshoot).  We stayed 20 minutes.  We bolted for the door after the pastor did the following:  apparently there was a women's retreat going on.  He went on and on about how great it was that so many women were on the retreat, how great the retreat would be, how important it was for the women to be together for this etc.  He praised the families that were willing to make the sacrifice for the women to go.  They had sacrificed work, husbands had to get kids rallied and all.  Then he said he understood that there were women who wanted to go but couldn't for various reasons and God understood that and sympathized.  Then he said there were WOMEN WHO COULD GO BUT DIDN'T AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO PRAY THAT YOU WOULD CONFESS THIS AS SIN!!  He said that God wants bodylife not just church goers.  Then he proceeded to pray in that exact way.  So I guess this guy knows God's will for these women and can tell them.  Can you spell C-O-N-T-R-O-L?

Like I said, we bolted for the door at this point.  Am I being overly sensitive?  I couldn't imagine the rest of the congregation going along with this guy.  And if they do, then they must have the same belief/opinion as he does.  Those aren't the people that I want my family around.

Later in the day we got together with our friends from the pentecostal cult and boy did we have fun.  We spent 3 hours trading extreme stories about our cult backgrounds.  We thought they topped when they said the pastor of their church in California decided the church needed to move to Tennessee to avoid the judgment pending in California and 300 people upped and moved to Tennessee!  Without jobs, housing etc.  But they thought we won with our stories of stewardship charts and consequences. 

Boy it's good to be able to look back and laugh now.
Me

[outdeep]

We saw The Village this weekend.  Okay -- it was spooky!  And the spooky stuff took a LONG time to resolve.  That was hard to take.  But the best line in the movie is when the girl talks to the young guy on the road as says something about his kindness and she wasn't expecting to find kindness on the outside. 

Isn't that the best expression of what we find when we come out from the deception?!  After the picture has been painted so bleak and scary for us for all those years, we find out that on the outside is freedom and kindness.  I remember my first year out from the assembly -- just feeling like I could breathe deeper and see more color in the world around me.  It felt sooooo good.

Yesterday my family and I decided that we would try church no. 6 (I think) in our locale, post assembly.  We decided to go to a Calvary Chapel (costa mesa offshoot).  We stayed 20 minutes.  We bolted for the door after the pastor did the following:  apparently there was a women's retreat going on.  He went on and on about how great it was that so many women were on the retreat, how great the retreat would be, how important it was for the women to be together for this etc.  He praised the families that were willing to make the sacrifice for the women to go.  They had sacrificed work, husbands had to get kids rallied and all.  Then he said he understood that there were women who wanted to go but couldn't for various reasons and God understood that and sympathized.  Then he said there were WOMEN WHO COULD GO BUT DIDN'T AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO PRAY THAT YOU WOULD CONFESS THIS AS SIN!!  He said that God wants bodylife not just church goers.  Then he proceeded to pray in that exact way.  So I guess this guy knows God's will for these women and can tell them.  Can you spell C-O-N-T-R-O-L?

Like I said, we bolted for the door at this point.  Am I being overly sensitive?  I couldn't imagine the rest of the congregation going along with this guy.  And if they do, then they must have the same belief/opinion as he does.  Those aren't the people that I want my family around.

Later in the day we got together with our friends from the pentecostal cult and boy did we have fun.  We spent 3 hours trading extreme stories about our cult backgrounds.  We thought they topped when they said the pastor of their church in California decided the church needed to move to Tennessee to avoid the judgment pending in California and 300 people upped and moved to Tennessee!  Without jobs, housing etc.  But they thought we won with our stories of stewardship charts and consequences. 

Boy it's good to be able to look back and laugh now.
Me

I could understand your sensitivity.  However, I would have to observe more to make a judgement.  Knowing Calvary Chapels, I doubt that he was trying to control to the same extent that control occurred in the Assembly.  In other words, I would guess that you could be at that church and respectfully disagree with the pastor's prayer (and even discuss it with him) and remain in good standing in fellowship.  Verbally disagreeing with George was not an option.  I don't know this for sure, of course, but that is my hunch based upon my experience with CC folks since 1976.

I think the pastor's prayer is indicitive of the discussion that went on and on about how we receive information from God.  That thought fell upon the pastor's heart, he took it as the voice of God and he prayed it.  In many circles, this is seen as being "led of the Spirit" and "hearing the voice of God" though it seems to me that the pastor's natural desire to motivate got wrapped up in the mix.  These type of concerns is why I (and I would guess Tom though I haven't discussed this with him) argue for more restraint, discernment, and objectivity in attributing a thought as coming from the very mouth of God.