A NEW THREAD - Cults are more common than I thought

[Elizabeth H]

Me,
We've had similar experiences at Calvary Chapel off-shoots. At one off-shoot that had just experienced a split (apparently a pastor had left suddenly and taken a bunch of people with him--which should have been our first clue, huh?), we heard that "leaving was unspiritual" and that "staying to work the problem out" was more Godly. They were also charging a $15 donation to attend their weekly Women's Bible Study.

It's been our experience that the younger the pastor, the more ambitious they are. And the younger the church (even calvary off-shoots), the more prone they are to what they euphemistically call "growing pains."   

Because of our Assembly background, I'm just not able to go through a young church's "growing pains" and sit through prayers like the one you described.

Been there. Done that.

I just don't believe in THE CHURCH anymore. Maybe there's a place I can attend (for the time being and for the sake of my kids who absolutely LOVE sunday school), but I'm done searching for THEEE CHURCH.
 

[outdeep]

Me,
We've had similar experiences at Calvary Chapel off-shoots. At one off-shoot that had just experienced a split (apparently a pastor had left suddenly and taken a bunch of people with him--which should have been our first clue, huh?), we heard that "leaving was unspiritual" and that "staying to work the problem out" was more Godly. They were also charging a $15 donation to attend their weekly Women's Bible Study.

It's been our experience that the younger the pastor, the more ambitious they are. And the younger the church (even calvary off-shoots), the more prone they are to what they euphemistically call "growing pains."   

Because of our Assembly background, I'm just not able to go through a young church's "growing pains" and sit through prayers like the one you described.

Been there. Done that.

I just don't believe in THE CHURCH anymore. Maybe there's a place I can attend (for the time being and for the sake of my kids who absolutely LOVE sunday school), but I'm done searching for THEEE CHURCH.
 

A couple of thoughts and I will be quiet for the rest of the day to allow for other thoughts.

1.  When we left in 1990, most folks went through the same problem of trying to find a church.  Most ended up at larger mega-churches because churches grew large for a reason - generally they are doing something right.  I know there are exceptions (and the exceptions are obvious).  The larger churches with an Evangelical statement of faith tend to be safer because no one person is going to drag the whole congregation off the deep end.  Further, if you avail yourself to smaller group opportunities (sunday school, mission team, home group, choir, etc.) you generally find some really godly people.  Yes, I know large churches also attract many pew-sitters, etc.  But, that is not everyone there as we were once led to believe.

2.  Smaller Bible studies often ask for a donation to pay for materials.  I was just in a group where we went through Every Man's Battle and I paid $10.00 for the book.  If I didn't have it, I'm sure they would have let me join anyway.  My wife does the same with her Beth Moore women's group.  It's not that unusual.

[M2]

Hi Sondra,

Why do you persist?  It is evident that most of the remaining posters are not interested in your POV.  You have been "classified" as a deeper/higher life thinker, so anything you say will be viewed through those spectacles.

I must admit that I see your point, and agree with you for the most part.

The person who is full of the Spirit will want to study God's Word, and will/should be able to recognize when the teaching is aberrant or true.  Those who put too much emphasis on academics will sometimes fail to recognize what is staring them in the face, and will even use their academic training and education to shoot down any opposition.  This is where the similarity (with George) comes in, and the proof is what happened with the frank composite; an error in judgement was made by Tom and Joe (who happens to agree with Tom) because of TMI (too much information).

Plagiarism indicates that George had to resort to 'Chrisitianizing' his ministry without the leading of the Holy Spirit.  Also, the assemblies being similar to so many other aberrant groups further confirms that the natural man can intellectualize the Word without being sensitive to the Spirit and therefore end up with a false religious system akin to that of the Pharisees.  Yes the Word drew some, who were already involved in other groups, into the assembly, but it was the Word twisted to convince and lacking the message of grace.

An interesting comment from "just me":

.....
Then he said he understood that there were women who wanted to go but couldn't for various reasons and God understood that and sympathized.  Then he said there were WOMEN WHO COULD GO BUT DIDN'T AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO PRAY THAT YOU WOULD CONFESS THIS AS SIN!!  He said that God wants bodylife not just church goers.  Then he proceeded to pray in that exact way.  So I guess this guy knows God's will for these women and can tell them.  Can you spell C-O-N-T-R-O-L?

Like I said, we bolted for the door at this point.  Am I being overly sensitive?  I couldn't imagine the rest of the congregation going along with this guy.  And if they do, then they must have the same belief/opinion as he does.  Those aren't the people that I want my family around ......

If a pastor at my church preached or prayed that way, he'd be getting an immediate query from me.  Talk about putting on the pressure.  If it was my first visit, I'd be out the door too.

Re. paying for group attendance, I gave a lot more to the Geftakys ministry, so anything I dish out now is of no comparison.  $15/week does seem a bit high, but $15 per study(2,3,4 months) is a small amount considering the expense for coffee, and usage of the facilities and/or workbooks.

IMO, it is in the best interests for the sake of the children's future an one's own spiritual well-being, to become a regular attendee at a living growing church.  People have problems, so there is no such thing as a perfect church.  Here is an interesting quote from www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyChurch.htm

If you have been abused in one church, it would be a very easy thing to isolate yourself from a local body for fear of being hurt again...

Allow me to make a statement that might help you be willing to take the risk of being a part of a healthy local church: I believe a healthy church is off track about 80 percent of the time. That may initially seem like a bizarre statement. You may ask, "Mike, if a healthy church is indeed off track about 80 percent of the time, then what makes it healthy?"

Allow me to explain further. A healthy church knows when it is off track and is willing to make the necessary course corrections to get "back on track" fulfilling its purpose and mission. Therefore, as soon as it realizes that it needs to make a course correction, it does so. Making those necessary corrections 80 percent of the time equals a healthy church--but failing to make course corrections can lead quickly to an unhealthy church environment.

Marcia

[Jem]

just me, (you gotta scroll way down to get back to the original topic of this thread).

We attend a Calvary Chapel that we have found quite healthy for us. One of the things that attracted us to it was their church value of adult to adult relationships. But what I have learned of Calvarys is that they can all be quite different. CCCM offshoots can really shoot off. Ours is a large one and, as Dave said, I think it is harder to suck a larger church down into the controlling, performance based vortex than a smaller one like you visited. If one of the pastors at our place had said what the pastor at the place you visited said, he would have a line of people to talk to afterward starting with the senior pastor (who is good friends with Ron Enroth and thought this Calvary was too controlling when he took the helm, so to speak).


P.S. I'm not trying to name call, belittle, or otherwise be nasty, so--as everyone says right before someone takes them wrong--don't get me wrong, but shouldn't this whole Jamison/Sperling back and forth be under the, um, headcovering thread? It seems all rabbit trails lead to the same place

[Elizabeth H]

just me, (you gotta scroll way down to get back to the original topic of this thread).

We attend a Calvary Chapel that we have found quite healthy for us. One of the things that attracted us to it was their church value of adult to adult relationships. But what I have learned of Calvarys is that they can all be quite different. CCCM offshoots can really shoot off. Ours is a large one and, as Dave said, I think it is harder to suck a larger church down into the controlling, performance based vortex than a smaller one like you visited. If one of the pastors at our place had said what the pastor at the place you visited said, he would have a line of people to talk to afterward starting with the senior pastor (who is good friends with Ron Enroth and thought this Calvary was too controlling when he took the helm, so to speak).


P.S. I'm not trying to name call, belittle, or otherwise be nasty, so--as everyone says right before someone takes them wrong--don't get me wrong, but shouldn't this whole Jamison/Sperling back and forth be under the, um, headcovering thread? It seems all rabbit trails lead to the same place

hear, hear!

back to the topic at hand, if you will: Jem, we've tried several Calvary off-shoots as well and found just what you described. We also attended, as Clarence Thompson wrote about (like 3 pages ago!), a Lutheran church and found it very pleasant. For me, there was something safe in the denomination because I knew that no screw-ball guy was going to be able to drive the church off the cliff---there were over-seeing authorities keeping tabs on stuff. I liked that, I must say.

E.

[outdeep]

When I left the Assembly, I went to a church called Creek Park Community Church in La Mirada.  About that time, there was someone who was leaving because they moved to Chino Hills.  The chuch gave a big pot luck for them and said many nice, affirming things about them.  (Much like the going away we got when we left the Assembly ).

Seriously, it was a very nice going-away and I was very touched as the difference between that church and the Assembly was tremendously obvious.

But, getting to my point:  This family who was leaving said a few words.  The husband said that they were visiting an EV Free church in Chino Hills.  He said that instead of just attending Sunday morning, he attended the church's business meeting because he felt that it would give him a better understanding of how healthy the church was.

In retrospect, I can see the wisdom of this.  Is the church strong elders and weak pastor?  is the church strong pastor and rubber-stamp elder board?  Are they able to work well together and make thoughtful business, personell, and spiritual decisions?  As you get to know them do they seem to make compassionate yet reasonable decisions?  Are they generous in funds toward needs or are they stingy-hearted?  Do they tend to be feelers or thinkers? (Not saying one is better, but it is good to ask).  Is the emphasis doctrine or relationships or do they have a good mix of both?

Does their elder board (or deacons or whatever they happen to call them) represent a mix of good business people, good thinkers, those with a shepherds heart, and various age range?  For that matter, is the church a good mix or is it all young or all old?

Observe how they handle discipline cases.  Are the clueless?  Do they stick their head in the sand?  Or, on the other hand, are they defensive and harsh?  

Again, any group can find a compelling preacher and throw together a praise band (or litergy or whatever they do).  But a church that is managed well is central to that church's stability.

Selecting a church is a decision like buying a car.  Stay away from one that makes you feel uncomfortable and consider the one that you like.  But, don't expect any model to have every feature you are looking for.  After awhile, you are going to have to ask what is a "must have" and what is something you can accept.  For example, you may accept someone who isn't the greatest preacher if the church has a stable elder board and you feel that those in the church really care about you.  On the other hand, you may be interested in attending a church that is very missions-driven even though the driving distance means you will probably not have many friends there you can see mid-week.

Again, why are larger churches successful?  Because, often they do the basic stuff right.  They are able to manage the many people because they often have qualified leaders who manage things well.    Keep in mind that a larger church does not have to be 10,000 or more.  (These are mega-churches)  Those who study these things say that a church that breaks the 200 barrier (200 is about how many a single pastor can handle by himself without successfully working with others) and is around 500-1000 is considered a big church in many parts.

Every church I have been in has had some strengths that I admired and some things I was disappointed in.  I haven't been in a perfect, New-Testament church since the Assembly.   

Sorry for the rambling post.

[bystander]

hear, hear!

back to the topic at hand, if you will: Jem, we've tried several Calvary off-shoots as well and found just what you described. We also attended, as Clarence Thompson wrote about (like 3 pages ago!), a Lutheran church and found it very pleasant. For me, there was something safe in the denomination because I knew that no screw-ball guy was going to be able to drive the church off the cliff---there were over-seeing authorities keeping tabs on stuff. I liked that, I must say.

E.

Demoninations, especially ones that have been around for quite some time, tend to stable, predictable and very hard to move into cultic practice.  Many mainline denominational churches can be quite vibrant and dynamic.  Others can be quite....consistent.  

While the average Lutheran church isn't going to start speaking in tongues and begin a month long study on submission to authority, if there does happen to be something evil in the closet, (usually sexual sin, or embezzlement) the very stability and organization that cult-proofs the church can be used to shelter the pastor and elder from exposure.

The great thing about church and churches is that we can put our cars into a different parking lot whenever we feel like it.  Calvary Chapels have their share of problems, like everyone else, but they also have many really great churches.  

Also, I'm sorry to have taken the thread off course.  I actually forgot what the original topic was!

bystander

[mithrandir]

I don't know precisely where this post belongs...anyway, here goes.  I really have enjoyed this particular thread, because it discusses the real-life experiences of those who are coming out of a cultic, abusive experience.  Now, some of you may feel somewhat offended by what I'm about to say, but please understand that I am not telling you what to do; I'm simply stating a personal preference.

First, right now, the thing I most enjoy reading is personal accounts of the post-abuse journeys we are all undertaking.  What I don't enjoy is seeing people with big Bibles, ranged against each other like knights with long lances, mounted on war-horses, battling each other to the death over points of doctrine.  My mind is made up regarding my Assembly experience, and my view of most of the former leaders of the Assembly.  In a nutshell, I think they were crooks, and that all that they did and taught was done deliberately to enable one corrupt man to wield control over us all.  I was very angry at the former leaders for a while, and very, very angry about what had been done to me.  Now I'm not nearly as angry.  All I want to do is learn how to move on from it all.

So I don't particularly enjoy the posts of some who, for motives I consider questionable, want us to try to see the good in our Assembly experience, or who say, "There was much good in the Assembly."  To me, that's like making a bowl of potato salad out of the finest ingredients, with the best of care, and then leaving it in the back of a hot car for three hours during the hottest day of the year, and asking people at a church picnic to "just try and eat around the bad parts."

And regarding the Bible, I have fired most of the experts who came along to say, "We'll be your one true source, your one-stop shop for Scripture interpretation."  It's not that I don't listen to teachers or read books.  Rather, it's that I don't listen to people who tell me that "this is the way it is, and there is no other way, and buddy, you'd better believe it", especially about things that are non-essential.  I don't really care about comparing the King James Bible to other translations, or the finer points of Calvinism, or Dr. Ridderbos' interpretation of amillenialism.

I am still a Christian, and I still want to live as a witness in the world.  But the thing I really need help with is getting past the issues which, I believe, are common to many of us.  For instance, I still have dreams about the Assembly - and I've been out for two and a half years!  In a recent dream I had I was yelling at the leaders.  How does one get past that?  Here's another one: As Christians, we are supposed to be in submission to the Scriptures.  Yet when I read certain passages, a flood of negative flashbacks washes over me.  Does anyone have experience in dealing with that?  Or how about this: the Bible says we are to forgive those who wrong us.  Has anyone been able to do that with former Assembly abusers?  I'm not talking about giving these people the title deed to your possessions.  But I am talking about releasing these people in such a way that you can get on with your life.  Here's another one: how to handle relationships, especially in church, in a post-Assembly world.  And here's a final question: What are we all doing now with our lives?

Thoughts, anyone?

Clarence Thompson

[Oscar]

Clarence,

I am still a Christian, and I still want to live as a witness in the world.  But the thing I really need help with is getting past the issues which, I believe, are common to many of us.  For instance, I still have dreams about the Assembly - and I've been out for two and a half years!  In a recent dream I had I was yelling at the leaders.  How does one get past that?  Here's another one: As Christians, we are supposed to be in submission to the Scriptures.  Yet when I read certain passages, a flood of negative flashbacks washes over me.  Does anyone have experience in dealing with that?  Or how about this: the Bible says we are to forgive those who wrong us.  Has anyone been able to do that with former Assembly abusers?  I'm not talking about giving these people the title deed to your possessions.  But I am talking about releasing these people in such a way that you can get on with your life.  Here's another one: how to handle relationships, especially in church, in a post-Assembly world.  And here's a final question: What are we all doing now with our lives?

Thoughts, anyone?

Clarence Thompson

1. I had the "flashback" feelings come to me on many occassions.  Getting into relationships with godly men who cared enough to let me talk it out was a big help.  Even then, it took a few years before this stopped happening.  However, I worked my way out of the assembly over time, so I didn't get the big shockaroonie of the sudden revelations and fall of the assembly empire.

2. Regarding forgiveness, I was greatly helped by Charles Stanley's book, "Forgiveness".  Seems that if we don't forgive, (you never forget), the "ghosts" of the past have power over our emotional and thought lives in the present.  I refer to our rehashing of the things that were said and done to us, all the slights, injustices, lies, on and on that we all experienced.  When we do this, we cannot help but revisit the feelings those things caused and can still cause.

One technique he recommended helped me to get free from the power of the memory of a wound to my soul that far surpassed anything GG ever did.  I can say this, it really helped.  If you want to know more, e-mail me, or better, give me a ring.

3. This has received a lot of attention on the thread, "Wounded Pilgrims".  Mark Campbell has done a lot of thinking on this issue.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

When I left the Assembly, I went to a church called Creek Park Community Church in La Mirada.  About that time, there was someone who was leaving because they moved to Chino Hills.  The chuch gave a big pot luck for them and said many nice, affirming things about them.  (Much like the going away we got when we left the Assembly ).

Seriously, it was a very nice going-away and I was very touched as the difference between that church and the Assembly was tremendously obvious.

But, getting to my point:  This family who was leaving said a few words.  The husband said that they were visiting an EV Free church in Chino Hills.  He said that instead of just attending Sunday morning, he attended the church's business meeting because he felt that it would give him a better understanding of how healthy the church was.

In retrospect, I can see the wisdom of this.  Is the church strong elders and weak pastor?  is the church strong pastor and rubber-stamp elder board?  Are they able to work well together and make thoughtful business, personell, and spiritual decisions?  As you get to know them do they seem to make compassionate yet reasonable decisions?  Are they generous in funds toward needs or are they stingy-hearted?  Do they tend to be feelers or thinkers? (Not saying one is better, but it is good to ask).  Is the emphasis doctrine or relationships or do they have a good mix of both?

Does their elder board (or deacons or whatever they happen to call them) represent a mix of good business people, good thinkers, those with a shepherds heart, and various age range?  For that matter, is the church a good mix or is it all young or all old?

Observe how they handle discipline cases.  Are the clueless?  Do they stick their head in the sand?  Or, on the other hand, are they defensive and harsh?  

Again, any group can find a compelling preacher and throw together a praise band (or litergy or whatever they do).  But a church that is managed well is central to that church's stability.

Selecting a church is a decision like buying a car.  Stay away from one that makes you feel uncomfortable and consider the one that you like.  But, don't expect any model to have every feature you are looking for.  After awhile, you are going to have to ask what is a "must have" and what is something you can accept.  For example, you may accept someone who isn't the greatest preacher if the church has a stable elder board and you feel that those in the church really care about you.  On the other hand, you may be interested in attending a church that is very missions-driven even though the driving distance means you will probably not have many friends there you can see mid-week.

Again, why are larger churches successful?  Because, often they do the basic stuff right.  They are able to manage the many people because they often have qualified leaders who manage things well.    Keep in mind that a larger church does not have to be 10,000 or more.  (These are mega-churches)  Those who study these things say that a church that breaks the 200 barrier (200 is about how many a single pastor can handle by himself without successfully working with others) and is around 500-1000 is considered a big church in many parts.

Every church I have been in has had some strengths that I admired and some things I was disappointed in.  I haven't been in a perfect, New-Testament church since the Assembly.   

Sorry for the rambling post.

Wish I'd said that.   

Thomas Maddux

[M2]

Hi Clarence,

One reason I have participated on this thread is because the discussion is relevant to "today's" experiences.

I feel for the victims of abuse, especially when the effects of that abuse remain even today; I cannot say more without revealing confidentialities.  However, I find that I am angry at those unrepentant leaders, and those leaders who left the system when their local assembly crumbled but boast about how they saw right through George and never really participated in the abuse.

I cannot change those leaders, and I cannot let the assembly continue to 'control' my life.  Tom's advise is good re. getting into relationships with godly men who have the time to let you talk it out.  In my case, my cell (small) group hosting family has become that "listening" ear for me, and I for her.

Many of the evangelical churches host "courses" like the Alpha program, or Networking(spiritual gifts) seminars, or small group studies, or... .  If time and priorities permit, then those are opportunities to connect with other Christians.

Marcia

P.S. I love listening to Newsboys Devotion and Adoration CDs.
MM

[brian]

I am still a Christian, and I still want to live as a witness in the world. But the thing I really need help with is getting past the issues which, I believe, are common to many of us. For instance, I still have dreams about the Assembly - and I've been out for two and a half years! In a recent dream I had I was yelling at the leaders. How does one get past that? Here's another one: As Christians, we are supposed to be in submission to the Scriptures. Yet when I read certain passages, a flood of negative flashbacks washes over me. Does anyone have experience in dealing with that? Or how about this: the Bible says we are to forgive those who wrong us. Has anyone been able to do that with former Assembly abusers? I'm not talking about giving these people the title deed to your possessions. But I am talking about releasing these people in such a way that you can get on with your life. Here's another one: how to handle relationships, especially in church, in a post-Assembly world. And here's a final question: What are we all doing now with our lives?

Thoughts, anyone?

Clarence Thompson

i appreciate you being willing to open up so candidly about this stuff, clarence. and you are asking some great questions. i still have assembly dreams as well, especially if i have been talking to someone about the assembly recently. for instance i was going though some old boxes this past weekend and came across a couple boxes full of notebooks - all of them cover-to-cover meticulous notes taken throughout my life being raised in the assembly. they chronicle my struggle to make believable sense out of the inherently flawed system of living i was presented with from childhood and sincerely believed in for much too long. i didn't open any of them, but i didn't throw them away either. i sweat blood to get all that documentation, i'm not about to just toss it all. maybe some day they will prove useful for writing a book or some such. but seeing them stirred up enough thoughts and memories to prompt an assembly dream. for me they are no longer nightmares - i just wake up feeling kind of oddly disoriented. going to church or reading the bible can really freak me out sometimes, but not always. i concentrate more on living life as well as i can than on making sure i'm submitting to all the right scriptures. and if anyone comes running up to me waving scriptures in my face telling me i need to submit to them, they will likely lose the hand thats waving them.

brian

[Elizabeth H]

for instance i was going though some old boxes this past weekend and came across a couple boxes full of notebooks - all of them cover-to-cover meticulous notes taken throughout my life being raised in the assembly. they chronicle my struggle to make believable sense out of the inherently flawed system of living i was presented with from childhood and sincerely believed in for much too long. i didn't open any of them, but i didn't throw them away either. i sweat blood to get all that documentation, i'm not about to just toss it all. maybe some day they will prove useful for writing a book or some such.
brian

Brian,
A couple months ago I, too, found some old meeting notebooks. I was appalled at how meticulous & psychotically detailed my notes were. I had carefully laid out complete outlines, indented with numbered and alphabetically categorized bullet points with the corresponding verses. My printing was impeccably neat, the letters formed perfectly and so absolutely tiny. Almost like a font. Penmanship became an art form (and a way to kill time during the meetings---couldn't be faulted for writing too many notes, right?).

Some of my current friends (non-Assembly) have often remarked on my beautiful penmanship. I just say, "Well, I practiced penmanship quite a bit growing up." 

Now that I think about, my insanely impeccable notes must have been my way of excercising complete control over something in my life---all other areas were completely surrendered to the will of my parents, grandparents, the testimony, etc. etc.

I, too, will never throw the notebooks away.

E.

[Joe Sperling]

I remember something kind of funny. I was actually still in the Assembly when it happened,
but I still remember it. In one of the brother's houses we began to  meet in the living
room for 6:00 A.M. "morning time". We'd open in prayer and then all spread out to different
areas on couches, chairs, etc kneeling in front of our Bibles.

I decided one morning that I was going to re-study a Seminar, so I brought my detailed
notebook for the first meeting of the Seminar(I don't recall which Seminar it was now).
So, I was kneeling in front of the couch next to another brother, and began my study.

I began to hear the brother next to me making noises like he was upset about something(you
know, kind of like whining sounds of discontent). I heard this coming from a few of the other
brothers too. After the morning time, the head of the house asked me what I was doing during
the morning time, because I was making so much noise he couldn't concentrate.

What I hadn't realized is that by trying to follow the Seminar, I was constantly flipping back and
forth in my Bible to the verses George had referenced. While you're at the Seminar, everyone is
flipping to the same verses you are---but when you are in a quiet setting and do the same it has quite a different effect. It truly is amazing if you look at the notes from a Seminar, the amount of
references there are.

Now, when I watch a preacher on television(Charles Stanley, Greg Laurie, etc.) I notice how they
will take one verse and then literally feed you by expounding on that one subject. George's method of teaching was quite different, with so much flipping back and forth, that I understand now why
many times I felt confused and unsure of what he was trying to teach. But the notes I took were
meticulous---also the tiny notes I put throughout my Bible are extremely neat, and put together as though I were writing an essay.  I still have many of the notebooks after all of these years and would
never throw them away.

--Joe

[grown up]

Brian,
A couple months ago I, too, found some old meeting notebooks. I was appalled at how meticulous & psychotically detailed my notes were. I had carefully laid out complete outlines, indented with numbered and alphabetically categorized bullet points with the corresponding verses. My printing was impeccably neat, the letters formed perfectly and so absolutely tiny. Almost like a font. Penmanship became an art form (and a way to kill time during the meetings---couldn't be faulted for writing too many notes, right?).

Some of my current friends (non-Assembly) have often remarked on my beautiful penmanship. I just say, "Well, I practiced penmanship quite a bit growing up." 

Now that I think about, my insanely impeccable notes must have been my way of excercising complete control over something in my life---all other areas were completely surrendered to the will of my parents, grandparents, the testimony, etc. etc.

I, too, will never throw the notebooks away.

E.

I still have alot of my notes taken and recently I went thru some of them and I couldn't believe how detailed I was back then. I remember coming back from midwest seminars with pages and pages of notes. I wouldn't throw them out either. It took alot of work to take those notes and I still have the bible I was using back then with all the notes in it and pages falling out because I was contantly flipping pages back and forth.