A NEW THREAD - Cults are more common than I thought

[al Hartman]

Hi Clarence,

I'm running a few days behind on this thread & just read your excellent post.  Thanks for sharing your experiences.  Here are a few of mine, in response to your request for thoughts:

I am still a Christian, and I still want to live as a witness in the world.  But the thing I really need help with is getting past the issues which, I believe, are common to many of us.  For instance, I still have dreams about the Assembly - and I've been out for two and a half years!  In a recent dream I had I was yelling at the leaders.  How does one get past that?

After being out for over 25 years, I still have an occasional assembly dream, but they have become pretty few and far between.  In my case, I think a key factor is something Tom touched on somewhere recently, when he pointed out that George appealed to weaknesses we already had.  George & my late father had many traits in common, even though dad was unreligious.  In my dreams they are actually sometimes interchangeable.

As for getting past such dreams, I have found a solution in prayer.  Whenever I have a troubling dream of any kind, I take it to the Lord:  I tell Him that I know it could only have come to me because He allowed it.  I ask Him to show me the dream's purpose, OR to help me simply get over it, AND to help me be satisfied with either result.  Sometimes I actually learn something from the dream, but most often I am able to simply let it go as I learn to trust Him with my mental well-being.

 
Here's another one: As Christians, we are supposed to be in submission to the Scriptures.  Yet when I read certain passages, a flood of negative flashbacks washes over me.  Does anyone have experience in dealing with that?

Initially, I had this reaction to the whole Bible; later with just certain passages or themes.  In recent years I have realized that I had to decide whether or not to recognize the Bible in its entirety as God's inspired Word.  Having made what I am certain is the right decision, I now deal with my reaction issues in a similar manner to the way I deal with the dreams.  I pray, asking Him to teach me to trust Him when I have these reactions, to help me differentiate between my emotional kneejerks and the influence of His Spirit.  He does.

 
Or how about this: the Bible says we are to forgive those who wrong us.  Has anyone been able to do that with former Assembly abusers?  I'm not talking about giving these people the title deed to your possessions.  But I am talking about releasing these people in such a way that you can get on with your life.

This one has come much easier for me because of the scriptural perspective of Mt.5:44; Lk.6:27-28; Rom.12:14, 17-21; Jas.1:2-4; 1Pet.4:12-14; etc.  Now, I don't pretend that this came, or comes, easily-- it does not.  But, believing that if God instructs it, then it must be both possible and practicable, I pray for understanding and guidance as each situation arises. 

As for praying for those who abuse me, I am generally clueless as to what God wants to do in their lives, so it's pretty much a matter of just asking Him to do it (whatever it may be) and believing that He will take it from there & will convict me if more is required of me.

 
Here's another one: how to handle relationships, especially in church, in a post-Assembly world.

This one probably varies widely, according to our individual personalities.  For me, it has been the adoption of the X-Files theme: "Trust no one."  On its surface, this may sound very cold, skeptical and negative, but I see it more in light of the old familiar song, "...I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' Name.  On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand..."  That is to say that I don't look suspiciously at everyone-- I'm simply learning (and praying to learn) that in every situation my only safety is in trusting and looking to Christ.  Unless I acknowledge Him as sovereign in every area of my life and commit all my relationships to Him, how can I expect to succeed in any kind of relationship?

 

And here's a final question: What are we all doing now with our lives?

As you may know, I am retired, but my wife is still working.  We have four grown children and four grandchildren, none of whom we see very often, chiefly due to distance & finances.  God has graciously placed us in a wonderful church, where we are growing and helping others to grow.  Nothing goes on in our lives that is likely to show up on the six o'clock news, but we find plenty to pray about and are learning to live what we consider "normal" (as opposed to "average") lives.

God bless,
al

[Mark C.]

Hi Clarence and eveyone else!

  I would have missed your great post Clarence if Al had not discovered it and brought it to my attention (thanks Al).

  To me Clarence has asked the questions that are the most important for former members to answer, though our particular needs may not include each and every question that Clarence asks.

 1.) I had nightmares when I first left on a regular basis for about a year or so.

 One I particularly remember and can describe:  I was on a hill over-looking the Valley and GG, the Full. leaders, and the Valley Bros. were all around me in a circle and all looking down at their bibles.

  There was total silence for a long time and then one of the bros.'s asked me, "why did you leave?"  I would then wake up in a very emotional state of both terror and anxiety (remember at this time GG's corruption, and the Assembly leaders complicity in his evil, had yet to be made public).

   It came to a day when I was reading a book on Christian liberty and realized that God was not the great despot in the sky---- intent on making me holy via destroying my personality.

   The Assembly had made me very aware of how sinful, weak, and generally unworthy of God that I was.  Decades of trying to produce inner purity, and failing, left me with the conclusion that God maybe loved me---- in some kind of general "spiritual sense"----- but he really didn't like me much !

  "huh?" some may be saying now, "loved you but didn't like you?!"  I know it sounds weird, but it was the difference between my doctrinal beliefs and how I really felt about God--- you know, the difference between what I knew was a correct teaching in the world of theological theory and how my faith affected my emotional state.

   Dreams are a direct result of our emotional state and fixing our inner lives cannot be accomplished by reason and will alone. 

  Now, and of course, it also included my reason and will, but when the problem is a broken heart,just fixing confused thinking is not the entire answer--- or least it wasn't in my case.

  Liberty from these bad dreams, as well as waking anxieties, came to me as I realized that God really did love me--- not in a general/non-specific, cold/un-feeling, distant/removed, kind of way, but in a very special, personal, intense, and yes--- emotional kind of way.

   God weeps when I'm in pain, and really cares about how I feel! God really does intend good and blessing for me---- He is not about to "break" me, in some kind of spiritual murder of my soul, in a effort to "save" me!!

  You see, in my Assembly experience I had a split personality; one part was good and the other part was bad. God "loved" the good, but hated the bad!  Since I never could completly get rid of the less than perfect part of me that was never really accepted by God, I was filled with great anxiety over my relationship with God!

   This great anxiety filled my soul for decades and at times made me physically ill, or just totally burned out emotionally.

   Anyway, after I had the revelatory event that I describe above I did have the dream one more time.  The bros. gathered around me, as stated above, but this time I started to answer them and one by one they all just disappeared and I was on the hill by myself.

  Now, I still am a sensitive soul, and can easily get back into my ol' Assembly soul searching melancholy false holiness anxieties, but these sessions are much less frequent and intense than the previous ones'.

  I liked to take a stab at answering the other very fine questions you asked, but this is getting too long as it is.  With your permission I will attempt the others later.  Thanks again for asking and for your entire post which imho is suitable for framing!

                                        God bless,  Mark C.

[moonflower2]

 
 1.) I had nightmares when I first left on a regular basis for about a year or so.

 One I particularly remember and can describe:  I was on a hill over-looking the Valley and GG, the Full. leaders, and the Valley Bros. were all around me in a circle and all looking down at their bibles.

  There was total silence for a long time and then one of the bros.'s asked me, "why did you leave?" 

(red color change is mine)
Mark, were you #2?      In The Prisoner series, 2 was the number given to the man who left his organization and was constantly questioned, followed, and drugged after he was brought to a gimmicky little town, where everyone was a number, to try to determine why he left the organization. "Why did you leave?" was the constant question.

Too real.  Thanks for sharing.

Moonflower2

[Mark C.]

Hi Moonflower!

  I am not familiar with the "Prisoner series" but it does sound very much like it was taken from some of my nightmares!

  My response to Clarence goes to his questions re. his continual struggles with how he feels (his honest questions re. his struggles provide very helpful insight into what many former members are still trying to grapple with) describe the point that I always make that doctrinal issues are not the only one's former members need to face after leaving.

  Jesus came to heal the "broken-hearted", and this means the restoration of the deeply disappointed and discouraged soul.

   Most Assembly members did not base their involvement with the group on the rational study of the Bible, but on the basis of their own emotional need to be accepted by the group.  It is dishonest to think that our decisions (even those we would call spiritual) do not have a very large emotional component to them.

  It is very true, however, that some of us tend to be more emotional than the next member, and consequently will feel more deeply hurt from our past participation in the group.

   The answer, imho, is not to seek to squelch/subdue these feelings of anger against injustice, of being badly used in the name of God, and of the lost years stolen from us.   

  One of Clarence's questions was about "forgiving these former leaders."  Some that answer such a question seem to suggest the idea that our feelings of loss and anger are just as bad as the actions of the former leaders in abusing their power.

  The idea put forward above tries to force a kind of moral equivalency where God makes both parties, abuser and abused, equally culpable for their behavior while in the Assembly.

  Thus, the argument goes, "one just needs to put aside their hurt feelings and love these individuals who:

  1.) Refuse to even talk with the former aggrieved member.

   2.) Do not admit to any specific wrong doing at all (they may offer a general kind of apology that states: "if, I have done anything, etc.")

   It is my opinion that God is very unhappy with the former leaders above, and understands why former members like Clarence feel the way they do!   Clarence's hurt feelings are a very reasonable and just response to the very unreasonable and unjust response of those that treated him poorly for decades!

  Does that mean that former members need to be buried in bitterness and that there is no place to find freedom from the turmoil they feel?

  If trying to bury my feelings doesn't work what am I suppose to do with them?  It doesn't help much to just tell me that it is normal to have these kinds of feelings and that eventually they will go away.

  I know, and I don't pretend to possess some kind of "holy grail" that will provide the answer for each and every former member suffering with this.  There are a few general kind of principles that I hope some will find helpful.

 1.) God is just and is passionately opposed to (even Christians) using God's name in the abuse of others.

  One only need read Jesus' words to the Pharisees (MT. 23, etc) to see how strong and passionate he was re. this.

  God promises to deal with these kind of folks in judgment peronsally, and this means none of these unrepentant abusers are going to escape unpunished---- even if they really are believers gone bad.

  This takes the load of vengence off of me and gives me place to lay all my feelings that "they're just going to get away with this" into the truly caring and just hands of God.

2.) It is wrong to suggest that my feelings of resentment are "sinful" when in truth they arise from the conduct of others against me--- and again, these wrongs were done by those claiming God's authority to do so.

  Much of the lack of success in dealing with "bitter feelings" is because we feel guilty for just having these feelings in the first place.  As Christians we are taught to "turn the other cheek", and this is sometimes interpretated as becoming  a door mat for whoever gets their jollies from controlling us.

  This becomes a vicious cycle when bad feelings against the Assembly arise, then guilt following---- which leaves us in a very heightened emotional state.   This constant churning within leads to the nightmares, more anxiety, and thus continues to control us even years after leaving!

  I have found that this cycle stops when I undersstood that there is no guilt in realizing that those that abused me were wrong and that it is okay to face and denounce those who wronged me.  Also, that God fully understands why I feel the way I do and that I can freely pour out my heart to Him who seeks to mend my broken heart.

   There are some more, but this is too long already.

                                                God Bless,  Mark C.
     

   

   

[just me]

Clarence et al.

I can't believe that you can stomach keeping your old meeting notes!  Why do you do it?  Evidence for years of wasted time?

The only things I save are things that I feel might be incriminating or delivering for some schmuck who still needs clarification on why it was so bad.  Like my notes on wife training and the cycle of child training and workers' characteristics. Any of those will make you really nauseated if you read them today.


So we are coming up on three years of deliverance -- for all of you who had to wait until the bitter end to leave.  And my spouse and I are finally thinking about going back to church.  He attended a church last week and it was the first time in three years that he didn't have anything negative to say about it.  Well he attended the adult Bible Study and it had music, ministry, fellowship and he liked it.  He doesn't want to go near the "sanctuary" service.  But isn't that an amazing step?  I was shocked.  7 churches and 3 years later and we are (maybe) healing.

We have come to realize, as most of you here, that there are cultic/strange tendencies in every group situation.  We are looking for the least offensive that we can blend into.

One final unrelated note. Does anyone still get angry thinking about the continued abuses of GG and company in existing assemblies?  I must admit that I have cooled considerably.  Every once in a while though I think about creepy people like GG, Jim McAllister, Scott Testa and company and their poor abused wives and families.  For a moment I feel like I should do something, then I realize I tried and failed and there is nothing left to do -- frustrated but finished fighting.

Me

[grown up]

Clarence et al.

I can't believe that you can stomach keeping your old meeting notes!  Why do you do it?  Evidence for years of wasted time?

The only things I save are things that I feel might be incriminating or delivering for some schmuck who still needs clarification on why it was so bad.  Like my notes on wife training and the cycle of child training and workers' characteristics. Any of those will make you really nauseated if you read them today.


So we are coming up on three years of deliverance -- for all of you who had to wait until the bitter end to leave.  And my spouse and I are finally thinking about going back to church.  He attended a church last week and it was the first time in three years that he didn't have anything negative to say about it.  Well he attended the adult Bible Study and it had music, ministry, fellowship and he liked it.  He doesn't want to go near the "sanctuary" service.  But isn't that an amazing step?  I was shocked.  7 churches and 3 years later and we are (maybe) healing.

We have come to realize, as most of you here, that there are cultic/strange tendencies in every group situation.  We are looking for the least offensive that we can blend into.

One final unrelated note. Does anyone still get angry thinking about the continued abuses of GG and company in existing assemblies?  I must admit that I have cooled considerably.  Every once in a while though I think about creepy people like GG, Jim McAllister, Scott Testa and company and their poor abused wives and families.  For a moment I feel like I should do something, then I realize I tried and failed and there is nothing left to do -- frustrated but finished fighting.

Me

Hi,
I keep my notes as a reminder of the hard work I put in. Once things for sure I sure have learned to be detailed as a result and know the value of time. Some of the notes I keep to remind me of how not to treat my wife and children. being a new husband and father The notes kind of give me a guide of what works and what doesn't(in the case of the notes maybe what doesn't) but then there is Gods word and prayer to help sort it out. I still get angry when i think about these men. I like what Mark C said in an earlier post "I have found that this cycle stops when I undersstood that there is no guilt in realizing that those that abused me were wrong and that it is okay to face and denounce those who wronged me.  Also, that God fully understands why I feel the way I do and that I can freely pour out my heart to Him who seeks to mend my broken heart." Sometimes I feel like I failed but then I realize that God delivered me from the assembly because He cares. I  have been out of the assembly 7 years and those 7 years I have seen healing. I couldn't go near a church until I met my wife.
Thats just what I think tho. Still got a long way to go 

[mithrandir]

Clarence et al.

I can't believe that you can stomach keeping your old meeting notes!  Why do you do it?  Evidence for years of wasted time?

The only things I save are things that I feel might be incriminating or delivering for some schmuck who still needs clarification on why it was so bad.  Like my notes on wife training and the cycle of child training and workers' characteristics. Any of those will make you really nauseated if you read them today.


So we are coming up on three years of deliverance -- for all of you who had to wait until the bitter end to leave.  And my spouse and I are finally thinking about going back to church.  He attended a church last week and it was the first time in three years that he didn't have anything negative to say about it.  Well he attended the adult Bible Study and it had music, ministry, fellowship and he liked it.  He doesn't want to go near the "sanctuary" service.  But isn't that an amazing step?  I was shocked.  7 churches and 3 years later and we are (maybe) healing.

We have come to realize, as most of you here, that there are cultic/strange tendencies in every group situation.  We are looking for the least offensive that we can blend into.

One final unrelated note. Does anyone still get angry thinking about the continued abuses of GG and company in existing assemblies?  I must admit that I have cooled considerably.  Every once in a while though I think about creepy people like GG, Jim McAllister, Scott Testa and company and their poor abused wives and families.  For a moment I feel like I should do something, then I realize I tried and failed and there is nothing left to do -- frustrated but finished fighting.

Me

It's taken a while for me to get back to your post.  In March or April of 2003, in a fit of anger, I trashed everything I could find in my house from the meetings and seminars.  The first thing to go was George's book of poetry (btw, calling it poetry was quite a stretch.  To me, on a technical level it was like sand, rocks and Portland cement poured into an excavation without adding water first).  I think I kept one notebook with notes from a seminar George gave back in 1981 called "The Fountain of Life."  I guess I kept it for forensic reasons, since during that seminar he painted such an unattainable picture of Christianity that many of us started doubting our salvation.  And during that time he was already forcing himself on other women!  Funny thing is, that notebook got wet during last year's rainy season, and got mildewed.

I no longer get mad about those in continuing assemblies.  For one, it is too exhausting.  There came a point where I just had to let go and let God be God.  One other note: at work, they're moving us around to different cubicles, so now we have to throw away all our accumulated junk.  Engineers tend to be pack rats - especially because we think, "Suppose someone wants to ask about Project X five years from now...?"  Anyway, I found an old copy of Tim G's tract, "The Christian and Christmas."  I looked at it for a few seconds, then tore it up with a vehemence that would have surprised anyone who was looking (fortunately, no one was).

Oh, and I think I still have notes from training junior high school students to be a good witness.  They were given to me by someone who used to be in the Placentia assembly.  If you want the Twilight Zone, try reading those...

Clarence Thompson

[al Hartman]

A couple years ago I discovered my old Cambridge wide margin KJV that I carried faithfully to every meeting, including seminars, and used in what passed for my daily devotions in those days.  I had long thought that I had discarded it, but it showed up in the bottom of a box of miscellany, smelling of mildew.

Inasmuch as that book represented an extensive investment of my time, I used Lysol & Febreeze to deodorize it, and began to examine it.  To my great surprise, the majority of my marginal scribblings make sense & are actually encouraging.  It appears that in the midst of all that was going on I was seeing some spiritual truths & jotting them down instead of following the "ministry."  I imagine that if anyone in authority had ever borrowed my Bible, I would have had some 'splainin' to do.

As for my notebooks, T&Ts, etc., I have no idea which landfill they ended up in...

[marden]

I was going thru some things in in a closet and came accross my old Cambridge. I didn't look thru it but I know that while many of the things I heard from GG were well you know. I made alot of notes during the meetings and daily reading that i still value. I put alot of time putting those notes in there if anything no one could say I wasnt listening