fantasy meetings

[CAGirl]

Liz,
   What are you talking about “1 pt.”? I think we deserve a few thousand points for having to put up with the hugs and kisses from that perv of a “Papa” (or as it was for me Papa II).


   And how many points do you get for having your whole existence blown apart by lies and cover-ups. Do I get points for my name being linked forever to this twisted Assembly crap? Oh and points for hiding under the bed and plugging my ears and not talking about what was really going on so that the “workers” could continue to get there paychecks. I think all the AKs get at least 1 point for each welp left on their butts and backs and legs after a spanking. I could go on but I think I may be bringing everyone down but like Mark said, I was moved “to respond to Elizabeth's very candid post” and I just got the urge to share.

[Elizabeth H]

I could go on but I think I may be bringing everyone down but like Mark said, I was moved “to respond to Elizabeth's very candid post” and I just got the urge to share.

You're not bringing anyone down, CAGirl! 

Thank you for responding to my post. It was nice to see you on this board again. (((Hug)))

And don't worry, everyone I've met in my life on the "outside" cares very little about my weird, cultish past. It's what I make of my life and what I do with the life I've been given that matters, not so much where I come from.

And I guess you're right: we do deserve a lot more than 1 measly point! 10 million points for you & me! 

[al Hartman]

Ok Al, 500 points for sitting in a meeting during an earthquake, additional points for not even realizing it

Cool!!!  Plus bonus points for running outside to check the roof for "tongues of fire!!!"

[Eulaha L. Long]

How about this:

100 points for everytime the headsteward of the home calls you lazy and rebellious.

100 points for everytime a leading brother tells you that no man will ever marry you (because you are lazy and rebellious).

100 points for  hearing a child crying, because they were being "disciplined" by their parents.  Add another 100 points for everytime you heard the leather strap (or wooden dowel) smack against the child's behind.

100 points for each Sunday morning you got to the meeting place early to set up chairs and clean the bathrooms.

1000 points for every time you left your visiting relatives at home because you had to go to the meetings.

10,000 points for hiding in your room on Sunday mornings so that you could miss the meetings.  Add another 10,000 points for not being caught!

10,000 points for each inquiry re: where the money in the box was being spent.  !0,000 points for each time one of the leading brothers told you to mind your own business.

[matthew r. sciaini]

All:

Some more fantasies:

In the seminar:

GG:  Brethren, are you rejoicing?

(a chorus of belches resounds from the taping section)

GG:  I said, are you rejoicing?

(more belching from the section in front and some sounds of fake barfing from the man doing the video)

GG:  You all are a bunch of good heathen!  You need to repent and listen to the secrets I have from God!

M.R.S:  (standing up):  What are you talking about, you old windbag?  I've been listening to you for sixteen years now and you are making less sense than ever!!!  (fake barfing sound again)  How dare you upbraid me and all of us here for not being able to make head or tail of what in the he** you are talking about!!!!  I try to write an application for every message but I can't think of one except to pray.  I speak with the brethren about this from time to time at these seminars and am served with the answer that I need to "enter in".  Whatever!!!   (HUGE belch, accompanied by Gollum-like sounds--he was the guide to Frodo and Sam in the "Lord of the Rings, and the Ringbearer for a long, long time).........yes, precious, whatever......we doesn't like the way this man is doing us, do we, precious?  Oh, no, no we doesn't. 

GG:  (signalling to doorkeepers)  Brother, you are causing disorder in the meeting!  Sit down now or you will be escorted out!!!

M.R.S:  And you are causing our minds disorder!!!   We spend 14 hours with you over the course of a weekend, three times a year, and we let you berate us about how fleshly we are!   Why don't you let me get up and give messages as you give them, while you sit on your rear end and try to follow me?  How long would that last, and rightly so?  (begins to fend off approaching doorkeepers) 

GG:  You haven't seen what we've seen.  You are in darkness.  You will leave now.  You are fleshly.

M.R.S:  (to the crowd):  Listen up!  I will have you know what at least all of you in Fullerton know, that we pray for these seminars.  In fact one of our elders asks us to pray for greater understanding, saying that if he needs it he KNOWS we need it.  Isn't that right, Mark?  And nobody protested.  Why?  Because we were trying to be good sports about all this while admitting that the seminars were at the point of diminishing returns.  Or, to put it more bluntly, we were not getting anything out of them, and that is a shame, considering the prayer and all that we put into these times.  (to GG)  Why is that, George?  Why?  I'm not just going to sit here and pretend that everything is OK when it is not.  What was that lame-a** apology that you read earlier?  Probably well over half the people in the room were hard put to know what you were apologizing about, and you rushed through it to keep them from asking any da** questions.  Some of us had been following this on the internet, or even talking to each other and getting some idea of what was going on in this ministry, but that was some lame damage control, George.  And that bit about your handing over your duties in the work due to poor health?  (HUGE belch) Yeah, right.  And your doubt about living until the next seminar?  Dude, are you trying to save your ministry or your a**?  No doubt some of the brethren would buy that, but you are not fooling anybody that really has been with you, except for willing "amen" morons. 

GG:  I'll have you know, you're gone.  You are grieving the Holy Spirit, and speaking unwholesome words.  Go.

M.R.S:  I'll go when I'm good and ready.  (begins to cry)  I haven't wanted to leave, even now, because of my relationships here, and I knew that they would be over if I left.  (stops that) 
YOU are a blot to this ministry...........

to be continued..........

Matt (too bad I didn't actually do this at the last seminar)

 

[al Hartman]

OK, here's my fantasy meeting:

It's January, 1969.  About a dozen of us are gathered in the back room of Tom Maddux's house in Woodland Hills for Bible study and prayer.  It is the first time that Cathy and I have brought our newborn first child to a meeting, and we want to dedicate her to the Lord.  We look to George.

George looks around the group and says, "I'm sorry, brethren, but I am not fit to hold this infant up in dedication to Christ.  The Holy Spirit has convicted me of sin in my life, even as I have masqueraded before you as an example of godliness.  I have (here George confesses his sins) all the while I have been teaching you the Bible.

"Now I know that I am not worthy to lead God's people to a bus stop, much less to teach and lead you in the ways of righteousness, because I am a lustful and sinful man.  I will not come to any more of these meetings.  I am going to find a God-fearing, Bible-believing church and submit myself to the pastors there.  I have forfeited the right to teach or lead, and will seek to learn the true "spiritual application" of all my accumulated head knowledge.

"I wish you well, and urge you all to find churches to attend where good men, not like me, teach a sound gospel, punctuated by good works that display the fruit of the Spirit.  Goodbye."
Of course I realize that this would mean that many of you readers would never have been born, but hey!-- it's just a fantasy.

al

[vernecarty]

OK, here's my fantasy meeting:

It's January, 1969.  About a dozen of us are gathered in the back room of Tom Maddux's house in Woodland Hills for Bible study and prayer.  It is the first time that Cathy and I have brought our newborn first child to a meeting, and we want to dedicate her to the Lord.  We look to George.

George looks around the group and says, "I'm sorry, brethren, but I am not fit to hold this infant up in dedication to Christ.  The Holy Spirit has convicted me of sin in my life, even as I have masqueraded before you as an example of godliness.  I have (here George confesses his sins) all the while I have been teaching you the Bible.

"Now I know that I am not worthy to lead God's people to a bus stop, much less to teach and lead you in the ways of righteousness, because I am a lustful and sinful man.  I will not come to any more of these meetings.  I am going to find a God-fearing, Bible-believing church and submit myself to the pastors there.  I have forfeited the right to teach or lead, and will seek to learn the true "spiritual application" of all my accumulated head knowledge.

"I wish you well, and urge you all to find churches to attend where good men, not like me, teach a sound gospel, punctuated by good works that display the fruit of the Spirit.  Goodbye."
Of course I realize that this would mean that many of you readers would never have been born, but hey!-- it's just a fantasy.

al

This is probably the most insightful thing you have ever posted on this topic.
Let us get down to brass tacks shall we?
If the Spirit of God were present (subjunctive case deliberate) in that gathering, since George did not stand up and do exactly what you outlined, someone else truly speaking for God would have.
If you understand this, then you understand the most important thing you should have learned about Geftakys and the assemblies.
No amount of alabis, excuses, and psychologising will ever change the reality of this fact.
It has ever been the way of God with men...

On the other hand, how many ex-members can really say that they made a worthy effort in trying to reconcile with their abusers?  How many left without saying a word?  How many allowed themselves to be silenced or slandered?  How many made a vigorous attempt to expose George and his Assembly?  How many gave up after giving it a good try?  How many even bothered to "tell them off," let alone rebuke them?

Bold Love means waging war against sin, using the tools of rebuke, entreaty, forgiveness, patience and persistence. 

How many have a clear conscience in this matter and can honestly say, before God, that they have made every attempt to rebuke, win, warn and save their brother?

I don't know the answer to that.

bystander

You do know the answer.
The point you are trying to make would have some cogency if it could be argued that there are those formerly in leadership who are still unaware of their own sin.
As a matter of conscience, as a matter of the historical record, of which this website is a part, that case cannot be made.

Which of these men, in view of what God has done, dare presume himself above abject repentance in dust and ashes?

If you have followed the events as you state, this ought to be your conclusion. They do not need further entreaty...
I do agree it is time for some of us to let it go. We have done all we humanly can. I think it is time to delete my own account and will make my final post as soon as I figure out how to save some of the more precious messages I got from some of you folk...it sure has been fun!... ...

Verne

[Oscar]

Verne,

Let us get down to brass tacks shall we?
If the Spirit of God were present (subjunctive case deliberate) in that gathering, since George did not stand up and do exactly what you outlined, someone else truly speaking for God would have.

It is not at all clear to me what you are saying.  Since God is omnipresent, how can one say the Holy Spirit was not present? 

Now theologians do distinguish what they call a "localized presence" of God, such as where Jacob said, "The Lord is in this place and I knew it not."  The Holy of Holies in the temple would be another place like this.  But then, each individual believer, is a temple of God, and the Holy Spirit is present in each of us.

So, exactly what are you saying?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

It is not at all clear to me what you are saying.  Since God is omnipresent, how can one say the Holy Spirit was not present? 

Now theologians do distinguish what they call a "localized presence" of God, such as where Jacob said, "The Lord is in this place and I knew it not."  The Holy of Holies in the temple would be another place like this.  But then, each individual believer, is a temple of God, and the Holy Spirit is present in each of us.

So, exactly what are you saying?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Let my try and clarify.
There are two broad camps of thinking regarding George Geftakys and the assemblies - those who believe he is a genuine believer gone bad, and those who contend that he was a devil from the beginning.
It recently dawned on me in an e-mail exchange with someone with whom I have vehemently disagreed on this topic, that it is quite O.K for Christians to differ on this, notwithstanding the kind of passion this very debate has stirred on this BB. Tom I know from many of your comments that you are in the first camp.
When I speak of the presence of the Spirit of God, I mean it in the sense of whether or not He (God's Holy Spirit) had anything to do with the establishment of George's "ministry". I suspect, based on the context of my remarks, that most readers got the point. 
Verne

[Seeker]

Verne,

It is not at all clear to me what you are saying.  Since God is omnipresent, how can one say the Holy Spirit was not present? 

Now theologians do distinguish what they call a "localized presence" of God, such as where Jacob said, "The Lord is in this place and I knew it not."  The Holy of Holies in the temple would be another place like this.  But then, each individual believer, is a temple of God, and the Holy Spirit is present in each of us.

So, exactly what are you saying?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Jesus said, " My sheep hear my voice and follow me".  I don't understand how a true child of God would follow a man like George Geftakys and not Jesus Christ. Please explain to me how this happens.

Seeker

[Mark C.]

Hi Seeker,

  I hope you don't mind me answering your question, though you addressed it to Tom.

  The verse you quote about "my sheep hear my voice and follow me" does not mean that his sheep will every instance of their lives "hear his voice and follow him."

   Jesus warns against harming these same sheep, or putting things in their path that will trip them up.  He also tells his disciples to beware of certain deceptions.  Paul tells the Galatians that they were "bewitched" into leaving the path of grace and dependance on the Holy Spirit.

    There are many more examples in the NT where we are told not to be fooled by those posing as reps. of God, but are frauds.

   No doubt, many of the members of the Assembly were truly born again and had the Spirit, but this does not guarantee that we as sheep will not stray at times.   God is faithful to come after us and attempt to bring us back.

   The mind is a crucial part of how the Spirit works in our lives as believers.  The Spirit cannot magically overwhelm our psyche, bypassing the mind, and filling us with spiritual feelings that will direct our actions.

    Assembly members believed that God spoke through GG and that his method of interpretation was especially inspired by God.  It took most of us a considerable amount of time to get us to suspect that something was wrong with this first sentence.

   It took some time, but God was there in those moments of doubt trying to get through to us.  We have thick skulls, but God is patient and knows how time, and life itself, has a way of providing an opportunity for him to enlighten us.

   Once our minds were free, and we were able to look at things free of the control that GG exerted on us, much became clear and again we were able to here the voice of God.

  GG falsely created the impression in our minds that God's voice was that of a cruel task master, vs. the loving Savior that guides us by grace.

   How did we get that idea?  Just like the Galatians did when the false teachers told them they were saved by the Gospel but now must go on to perfection via their performance.  Urging strong moral standards, as found in the law, as a means to please God cuts us off from the Spirit of God, because we are now trusting self vs. God.

   God has spoken in the person of His Son and his death for us on the cross, and this is the clearest voice from God we can hear.  It tells me that my relationship with God is based on his gift to me, not by what I can work up in myself.  Understanding it also tells me that GG was preaching a false message and did not speak for God.

     Sorry for the sermon, but it is Sunday !

                                          God Bless,  Mark C.

[al Hartman]

Excellent word, Mark-- Thanks.

Let me put it in other terms:

There is a furniture store near my home where I can purchase an entire houseful of furniture today, and make no payments whatever for over one full year.

In contrast, Jesus Christ paid for our redemption in full, once for all time, but spends the rest of our natural lives winning our hearts and minds in installments.

al

[Joe Sperling]

Seeker----

I would add that I think the reason most of us had a feeling of apprehension in the
Assembly and that "something was wrong" was the very fact that we knew this was
not the Good Shepherd's voice. The Holy Spirit was not letting us rest in the teaching,
or in anything that was going on. He was "convicting" us, and deep inside we knew that
this was not the voice of the one we originally heard when we were saved.

In effect the Good Shepherd was calling to his true sheep who had been deceived off of
the correct path. Just as Paul was calling out(by the voice of the Good Shepherd) to the
wayward Galatians, who had accepted a like form of legalism, so the Spirit was calling out
to each of us inside also. I must say that I believe most if not all of the Assembly members
were saved though---just deceived.

Thank God he didn't let us just "settle in" and accept everything that was said without having
some conviction the whole time that something was not quite right. He truly continued to call
out our names faithfully, and continued to use his rod and his staff to lead us back to the place
he really wanted us to be.

--Joe

[Seeker]

Seeker----

I would add that I think the reason most of us had a feeling of apprehension in the
Assembly and that "something was wrong" was the very fact that we knew this was
not the Good Shepherd's voice. The Holy Spirit was not letting us rest in the teaching,
or in anything that was going on. He was "convicting" us, and deep inside we knew that
this was not the voice of the one we originally heard when we were saved.

In effect the Good Shepherd was calling to his true sheep who had been deceived off of
the correct path. Just as Paul was calling out(by the voice of the Good Shepherd) to the
wayward Galatians, who had accepted a like form of legalism, so the Spirit was calling out
to each of us inside also. I must say that I believe most if not all of the Assembly members
were saved though---just deceived.

Thank God he didn't let us just "settle in" and accept everything that was said without having
some conviction the whole time that something was not quite right. He truly continued to call
out our names faithfully, and continued to use his rod and his staff to lead us back to the place
he really wanted us to be.

--Joe

Thank you Joe for you sharing your perspective of things

Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Seeker,

  I hope you don't mind me answering your question, though you addressed it to Tom.

  The verse you quote about "my sheep hear my voice and follow me" does not mean that his sheep will every instance of their lives "hear his voice and follow him."

   Jesus warns against harming these same sheep, or putting things in their path that will trip them up.  He also tells his disciples to beware of certain deceptions.  Paul tells the Galatians that they were "bewitched" into leaving the path of grace and dependance on the Holy Spirit.

    There are many more examples in the NT where we are told not to be fooled by those posing as reps. of God, but are frauds.

   No doubt, many of the members of the Assembly were truly born again and had the Spirit, but this does not guarantee that we as sheep will not stray at times.   God is faithful to come after us and attempt to bring us back.

   The mind is a crucial part of how the Spirit works in our lives as believers.  The Spirit cannot magically overwhelm our psyche, bypassing the mind, and filling us with spiritual feelings that will direct our actions.

    Assembly members believed that God spoke through GG and that his method of interpretation was especially inspired by God.  It took most of us a considerable amount of time to get us to suspect that something was wrong with this first sentence.

   It took some time, but God was there in those moments of doubt trying to get through to us.  We have thick skulls, but God is patient and knows how time, and life itself, has a way of providing an opportunity for him to enlighten us.

   Once our minds were free, and we were able to look at things free of the control that GG exerted on us, much became clear and again we were able to here the voice of God.

  GG falsely created the impression in our minds that God's voice was that of a cruel task master, vs. the loving Savior that guides us by grace.

   How did we get that idea?  Just like the Galatians did when the false teachers told them they were saved by the Gospel but now must go on to perfection via their performance.  Urging strong moral standards, as found in the law, as a means to please God cuts us off from the Spirit of God, because we are now trusting self vs. God.

   God has spoken in the person of His Son and his death for us on the cross, and this is the clearest voice from God we can hear.  It tells me that my relationship with God is based on his gift to me, not by what I can work up in myself.  Understanding it also tells me that GG was preaching a false message and did not speak for God.

     Sorry for the sermon, but it is Sunday !

                                          God Bless,  Mark C.

Please send another sermon, it makes some sense of a part of my life that was senseless.

Seeker