Nazis and the Nuremberg Trials

[Arthur]

My parents were over today and we were talking about what the Nazi's did in World War II (my parents are both from Holland).  In the past, I've done some study on the Nazi's and there are some surprising parallel's to the Geftakys group.  Authoritarian dictatorship, control over every aspect of members lives, informants, mind control, etc.  

As a side note, I remember one seminar where George was talking about Hitler.  He said that his dad told him one thing after another about what Hitler would do and sure enough, he did them.  He asked his dad, how did you know?  His dad told him that he read Hitler's book, Mein Kampf.  What Hitler wrote, he carried out years later.  George used this as an illustration to show that God will do what he states in the Bible what he will do. George wrote his own manifesto, Testimony to Jesus, and did what he wrote.  

Hitler and the Nazi's nazified every aspect of German society.  From the stamp collecting club, to the bee-keeping club, from the motorcycle club to protestant and catholic churches.  Everything became Nazi, for the Fatherland, of course.  In the Geftakys groups, every aspect of the members' lives revolves around "the work" (aka "the testimony", "this ministry").   Fellowships, meetings many times a week, brothers and sisters homes, seminars, conferences, couple's meetings, campus Bible studies, etc.  
And then there is the mind control.  I've seen photographs of Hitler practising his speeches, using all kinds of hand motions and other persuasion technique's.  Anyone who has been in the Geftakys group (and is no longer in it) knows what kind of coersive persuasion the leaders force upon the members.  No criticizing the leaders or the ministry, must be loyal, must maintain unity, etc.

With the Nazi's, a whole society was decieved and became cultish on a major scale, and we all know what the result of that evil was (at least I hope so, I've heard recently that 20% of Americans don't know or don't believe that the Holocaust even happened).  Most agree that it was because of the debilitating conditions of the Treaty of Veresailles at the end of WW I, and the depression that followed, which opened the door for such a man as Hitler to come in and give "hope" to the German people.  It fed their pride.  They weren't losers, as the Treaty had made them out to be.  No, they were overcomers, and they'd show the world how wrong they were for beating them down.  And thus came the German war machine. (I must note that, of course not everyone in Germany went along with it, but guess what happened to them - concentration camps or banishment.)
Sound familiar?  Many who came to George in the 70's (and later) were having problems dealing with reality in the first place.  George offered them "hope" and it fed their pride.  "We are not loser hippies!  We are overcomers and the Lord's servants!"  And what happened to those who didn't quite like George or agree with him--and not just then but all through the years?  They got the boot and a slandered name.  

The reason I bring this up is to ask a question.  I have heard that there is repentance by some.  I haven't thought about this before and now I have to.  What I find is that, the pain doesn't go away with "I'm sorry".  They took my life from me.  They took my trust.  They took my joy.  They took my heart and trampled all over it.  They can't give it back.  My question is this:  Is there no punishment?  Is it ok for them to just say, "Oh sorry about that, won't happen again.  Have a nice life." ?  The pain is still there.
When the Nazi evil was crushed, there was a trial, a set of trials.  The Nuremburg trials.  Wicked men were punished--hung by the neck until dead--for what they did.  

But we are Chrisitans.  Ah yes, that's the clincher isn't it?  We have learned something about mercy.
David murdered Uriah in a most despicable manner to take his wife.  What a miserable low-life, scum.  Yet God forgave him!  Ah, but God also punished him.  As far as the victim is concerned, though, could David give back the life of Uriah?  No.  (Interesting that David said his sin was against God.  Against thee, thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in thy site.)

So what are we to do?  Forgive and that's it?  Is it in our hands to punish?  These men, to my knowledge, have not killed anyone, so they do not deserve death.  But they have violated others in ways worse than physical, and physically also.  What punishment is there for that?  Let God handle the whole thing?  You, please, tell me.

[Scott McCumber]

Arthur,

Excellent points. Here's how I see part of what you are saying.

All sin seperates us from God. Pride is sin as much as adultery. A murderous heart is sin as much as a lie. "All have sinned and fallen short . . . "

Ultimately all the consequences of any sin are the same: eternal separation from Christ. And that is why we needed Christ to pay a ransom for our sins. The ETERNAL consequences of our sin have been lifted when we accept Christ.

But what about the temporal consequences? If I cheat on my wife and then repent and ask her forgiveness, am I free of consequence. Hardly. What if I contracted a sexual disease or my adulterous partner got pregnant?

What if my marriage struggles as my Jesus works out the reality of my wife's forgiveness in her heart? (This is hypothetical by the way!)

If I kill a man and repent does that mean I don't have to go to jail? Of course not.

So if a leading brother who lies, covers up lies, contributes to the emotional, physical and spiritual abuse of his flock repents is he therefore free from consequence? I SHOULD THINK NOT!

I do not know what the consequence should be for someone like that but I believe that there should be consequences above and beyond being embarrassed and exposed on a bulleting board.

These men need disciplined. They need to step down.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Hi Arthur:
In my opinion after repenting they should be leaders no more, anywhere. Do Christians really need another sect, even if it is new and improved? There is more to service to God than leadership, anyway.
Your post (article is a better word because you did a great job) gives us something to consider.

[Mark C.]

Dear Arthur and Other's!
   You raise what is on my heart as well, and with many who have been connected with the Assembly.
    It is very rare for those who have risen to the height's of an authoritarian group to find the ability to repent.  Their souls are not possessed by Christ, but by the aberrant need to control others' (power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts).  Their need, as the Pharisees, to be recognized as "great men of God", has a tight grip on their heart's.
    In order to rise to the top there needs to be a searing of conscience, as they perform in loyalty to the authoritarian leader; many individuals have to be trampled and used on the way up.  The organization is everything and loyalty to it all consuming!  Any aberrant behavior is justified, if it serves the goals of the group.
   There are some important differences re. your analogy of Nazism and the Assembly, however.  While a change of heart in the Leadership is rare, there are many little Lamb's (like your were) who have been victimized.  There is some gospel message there and there are those who believe that the organization is actually representing God.  We don't want to burn up the wheat with the chaff here and I believe God would not have brought about the judgement there that he did if it wasn't for his love of these little one's.
  Now, some of these little one's in there have called me all manner of names since leaving, but they actually think I have attacked God's true church, and as such I feel nothing but pity for them.  We must make a difference here; having compassion on some, and letting other's feel the fire.  I know the leader's know different!  They are prisoners of their own ego's!
  I think the story of Joseph is very instructive here.  Joe was betrayed by his brethren and sold into slavery; the brethren meant it for evil, but God means it for good.  The repentance of the brethren of Joe took many long chapters where God worked to bring them to restoration(the study of this process is very important re. our present discussion, but it will take a whole series of post's to cover--I will try next week).  I say this to say we must be patient with the full realization that God intends to bring everything to light and to a just end.
  No, a simple "I'm sorry" will not do, but only God can really heal the wounds.  We can't even expect truly repentant pharisees/nazis to give us back what was taken away.  These will be lucky to ever recover a true Christian life much less be able to minister to other's again.  Yes, it will be a harder road for them; even harder if they try to maintain the system by a partial repentance.
   God is angry, and we are justified in being angry as well, but we are warned not to sin while angry.  Let us be confident that God will not let any escape his justice.
                    God Bless,  Mark C.  

[Scott McCumber]

Rudy,

You are correct, of course. We are to forgive unconditionally.

That does not mean we do not hold someone accountable/ responsible for their actions.

And discipline is not revenge or retaliation. God disciplines those he loves! See the whole: consequences thing below.

Did you see the story posted two days ago from the young woman from the Tuscola assembly whose step-father was molesting her?

He repented, was forgiven and sent back to the home. Guess what happened?

[Scott McCumber]

Mark C,

Thank you. I was just going to appeal to Verne Carty or Paul Hohulin to come to my aid here! I'm afraid I don't have the doctrinal background to relate what my heart tells me is right.

[Arthur]

Without question, they should step down.  But beyond that?

Rudy, oh dear brother thank you for reminding me.  I've thought about that parable a few times.  But...I don't know if it is within me to forgive.  Something in me says, "this just isn't right, these men must be punished, how could they do this to us?"  And you know what, it does eat away at me.  I always have this condeming thought in the back of my head, making even my own actions suspect to me.  But that is what they taught me.  God taught me about grace and mercy.  They taught me about harshness and bondage.  I could not withstand it.  I tried, believe me, but they and the system were too strong for me, in Fullerton.  I guess I had not enough faith.  But here I am.  And I ask, shall the merciless obtain mercy?
But even if they are punished in some way that we deem satisfactorly, that wouldn't give back what they took.  But it would give closure, wouldn't it?  And in some way that would be some restitution, wouldn't it?

[H]

Dear Arthur,
Unfortunately, I don't have time to write a lengthy reply, but the Lord Jesus did make it very plain that we need to forgive those who have sinned against us if they repent. "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." (Luke 17:3-4) "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6:15).  

You said: "What I find is that, the pain doesn't go away with "I'm sorry".  They took my life from me.  They took my trust.  They took my joy.  They took my heart and trampled all over it.  They can't give it back." They may not be able to make the pain go away or give you back what they took, but the Lord can. I have found comfort in Rom. 8:28 and Joel 2:25 ("And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten ..."). Hope this helps.
May the Lord comfort and encourage you!
In Christ,
H
 

[Arthur]

Mark,  Yes I agree. There is a difference between the leaders (most of the leaders) and the little lambs.  Of course, my anger is not against the little lambs.  It is obvious which is which as you can tell a wolf from a sheep (once the sheepskin is pulled off the wolf).  Not all the Germans were hung, only the head Nazis.  I think the analogy still holds.  Most of the Germans were good people who got swept up in this torrent of evil.  Not their fault, in my opinion.  But those dirty, rotten, no-good Nazi leaders.  They got what they deserved, at least here on earth.
About Joseph and what he went through and what he told his brethren in summation. Believe me.  When I was in Fullerton and under tremendous pressure in spirit, I thought much about Joseph (as well as David fleeing from Saul, etc).  But I found that I am not so noble as him.  I have not so much faith.  I gave up and retreated into a shell (I even started playing video games a lot to keep from having to think about how bad things were).    I guess I don't have what it takes to be an overcomer.  That weighed heavily on me also.

H, thank you.  I hope I can find faith to do so nobly.  Faith comes by hearing, right?

[Scott McCumber]

Rudy,

You're right, of course. It's not exactly as if they can be spanked or grounded! I don't know what, if any, discipline can be meted out by the saints. I just know it is appropriate!

I also agree with you about the criminal charges. I think George should be so busy defending himself in a court of law for the rest of his life, that he does not have time to make more mischief.

And I believe that there are several other ways he can be charged in civil courts as well, though that would take the right victim with the right resources.

Anyway, at least things are moving in the right direction!

Scott

[Arthur]

Guys, thank you so much for your answers.  I'm having a really hard time about this, and talking it over really helps.  No doubt, others are too.  Lord help us all.

[Oscar]

Arthur,

When you say, "I don't know if it is in me to forgive", it seems to me that you have forgotten a few things.

Paraphrasing
How often shall I forgive my brother?  Unto 70 times 7.  

I can do all things through Christ  which strengtheneth me.

It seems to me that question is not one of ability to forgive, but willingness to forgive

Assembly=Nazi Germany???,  George Geftakys=Hitler?
Logically-there is a fallacy of false analogy here.

When I read your post, I was surprised.  
Assembly consequence-wash two cars, pull some weeds.
Nazi Germany consequence-worked/starved to death in Auschwitz.

Assembly control-talk to leading brothers.
Nazi Germany control-Gestapo interrogates you with rubber hose and electric shock.

Forgive me dear brother, but this line of reasoning is silly.

I doubt that they did any more to you than they did to most of us.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[Scott McCumber]

Tom,

Now there is a typical Assembly response. Let's belittle the reasonings and emotions of the "offender", make them feel guilty, inadequate and stupid.

In actuality, dear brother, it is you who takes the analogy too far. It is not a fallacy to compare any situation to another where similarities are found even if there are serious degrees of differences.

I took a class one time where we discussed totalitarianism and Nazism provided many of the examples. It was during this class that I began to have a deeper understanding of the Geftakys cult.

You owe your brother in Christ an apology for the thoughtless (and incorrect, I might add) way you publicly corrected him.

Feel free to take as many shots at me as you like. You will not find me in the least bit fragile or susceptible to humiliation, etc as I have already survived it.

Scott

[Scott McCumber]

Arthur,

What you feel is perfectly natural, of course. God made us vulnerable as part of our nature to love, make choices, etc.

In spite of what others may have tried to drill into over the years, you cannot necessarily discipline your emotions and force them into what you believe is the way God expects you to feel.

Many biblical characters expressed anger and disappointment in God. He still met their needs, cared for them, used them.

Instead of trying the fleshly work of 'being willing to forgive' when you are so emotionally hurt, maybe begin by asking God to HELP you get to a point where you can forgive.

Just a thought. And by the way. It does get better/easier.

Trust me. Been there, done that!

Scott

[Peacefulg]

Scott, well said and I pray the point is taken.

Lord Bless,
G