Didn't know what was going on behind the scenes?

[editor]

First of all, I'm not coming back as a frequent poster. 
Second of all, I am glad to hear that Mark Miller is doing well, and is reconciling with people.

I am writing this to make sure to remind people who forget recent history, or who may wish to re-write history.

Mark Miller knew something was quite wrong with George years ago.  It's in the timeline on GA.com, it's mentioned in many stories and accounts, and I myself told him the trouble with David and Judy in 1996 or prior.

He probably didn't know about George's adultery, but there was plenty more going on besides that that should have been addressed.

George practiced nepotism with his sons, especially David.  What kind of man appoints a man like David Geftakys to a position of prominence and power in a "christian" ministry?---a scoundrel, that's who.  (what kind of men stand by and say "Amen" to this sort of thing?  LB's and workers, that's who.)

George manipulated and hid information regarding his son from all the LB's and workers.  Again, what kind of man does this?  What kind of person stands by and says "Amen" to George, when it's clear he was being a scoundrel?

George handled all the finances, and gave no account to anyone.  What kind of man does this....

I asked those questions to myself in about 1999.  In order to find out the answers I made phone calls to people from George's past.  I found out about the adultery from them.

Why did I do that? Because logic and reason told me that George was rotten, and I should check out a few things about him that we all took for granted.

I wasn't a leading brother or worker, which is why I was able to dial a phone and ask questions leading me to the truth about George.

Mark, Dan, and others knew enough about George to ask questions and dial phone numbers, but they didn't.  If they were blind enough to not suspect that George was a scoundrel, after serving him all those years, can anyone be surprised they were ignorant of his adultery?

I am truly glad to hear of Mark's recovery and repentence.  It would be neat to hear from him, personally.

brent T

[Sondra Jamison]

First of all, I'm not coming back as a frequent poster. 
Second of all, I am glad to hear that Mark Miller is doing well, and is reconciling with people.

I am writing this to make sure to remind people who forget recent history, or who may wish to re-write history.

Mark Miller knew something was quite wrong with George years ago.  It's in the timeline on GA.com, it's mentioned in many stories and accounts, and I myself told him the trouble with David and Judy in 1996 or prior.

He probably didn't know about George's adultery, but there was plenty more going on besides that that should have been addressed.

George practiced nepotism with his sons, especially David.  What kind of man appoints a man like David Geftakys to a position of prominence and power in a "christian" ministry?---a scoundrel, that's who.  (what kind of men stand by and say "Amen" to this sort of thing?  LB's and workers, that's who.)

George manipulated and hid information regarding his son from all the LB's and workers.  Again, what kind of man does this?  What kind of person stands by and says "Amen" to George, when it's clear he was being a scoundrel?

George handled all the finances, and gave no account to anyone.  What kind of man does this....

I asked those questions to myself in about 1999.  In order to find out the answers I made phone calls to people from George's past.  I found out about the adultery from them.

Why did I do that? Because logic and reason told me that George was rotten, and I should check out a few things about him that we all took for granted.

I wasn't a leading brother or worker, which is why I was able to dial a phone and ask questions leading me to the truth about George.

Mark, Dan, and others knew enough about George to ask questions and dial phone numbers, but they didn't.  If they were blind enough to not suspect that George was a scoundrel, after serving him all those years, can anyone be surprised they were ignorant of his adultery?

I am truly glad to hear of Mark's recovery and repentence.  It would be neat to hear from him, personally.

brent T

Hi Brent,

You sure aren't going to be very happy with what I am about to say to you regarding your post.  It is devilish, IMO.  To further rehash and stir up strife and offense is devilish.  Oh yes, I know, you will have many supporters who will come in and pat you on the back for reminding everyone of the very grievances of their Assembly offenses that several are still nursing, but in your heart you know and I know the origin of such behavior. 

I know and you know the author of this type of sowing of discord.  Mark probably doesn't even know this whole dialog is taking place on this board, but no matter, those who read here will be set back by this type of posting by you.  And why do it?  People have been hurt and you have encouraged people to get on with their lives...stop having a victims mentality, etc.  Now you are asking people not to forgive ?? and to return and remember and hold grudges?

"What type of man is this who has....and.....and.....?," you ask.  This man is a sinner, just like you.  But you know what, unlike you, he is trying to make things right in the way God is leading him.  He isn't defending himself and claiming not to have been in error.  Quite the contrary....so why give fresh accounts and number his sins.  "If Thou were to count iniquities, O Lord, who could stand, BUT THOU ART GRACIOUS AND FORGIVING....." 

Are you looking for credit for your part in exposing George?  You need a new round of applause?  Be careful with those seeds of discord.  God hates it.  It's devilish.  There was a time for giving account of what people did wrong.  That time is over, IMO.  It posted in the archives of GA.com. 

Love believes all things, endures all things, hopes all things, doesn't take into account when it is wronged.......

Sondra

[Seeker]

Hi Brent,

You sure aren't going to be very happy with what I am about to say to you regarding your post.  It is devilish, IMO.  To further rehash and stir up strife and offense is devilish.  Oh yes, I know, you will have many supporters who will come in and pat you on the back for reminding everyone of the very grievances of their Assembly offenses that several are still nursing, but in your heart you know and I know the origin of such behavior. 

I know and you know the author of this type of sowing of discord.  Mark probably doesn't even know this whole dialog is taking place on this board, but no matter, those who read here will be set back by this type of posting by you.  And why do it?  People have been hurt and you have encouraged people to get on with their lives...stop having a victims mentality, etc.  Now you are asking people not to forgive ?? and to return and remember and hold grudges?

"What type of man is this who has....and.....and.....?," you ask.  This man is a sinner, just like you.  But you know what, unlike you, he is trying to make things right in the way God is leading him.  He isn't defending himself and claiming not to have been in error.  Quite the contrary....so why give fresh accounts and number his sins.  "If Thou were to count iniquities, O Lord, who could stand, BUT THOU ART GRACIOUS AND FORGIVING....." 

Are you looking for credit for your part in exposing George?  You need a new round of applause?  Be careful with those seeds of discord.  God hates it.  It's devilish.  There was a time for giving account of what people did wrong.  That time is over, IMO.  It posted in the archives of GA.com. 

Love believes all things, endures all things, hopes all things, doesn't take into account when it is wronged.......

Sondra

Sondra,

You sound like a leading brother wanabe. (so knowledgable and judgemental )
Get real and get a life.

Seeker

[editor]

Now you are asking people not to forgive ?? and to return and remember and hold grudges?

"What type of man is this who has....and.....and.....?," you ask.  This man is a sinner, just like you.  But you know what, unlike you, he is trying to make things right in the way God is leading him.  He isn't defending himself and claiming not to have been in error.  Quite the contrary....so why give fresh accounts and number his sins.  "If Thou were to count iniquities, O Lord, who could stand, BUT THOU ART GRACIOUS AND FORGIVING....." 

hi sondra,

I think you mis-read what I was saying in my post.  In no way was I saying Mark is a scoundrel. Neither am I asking people not to forgive him.  My reference was to George.  George is the scoundrel.  George is not trying to make things right at all.  He is defending himself and is NOT claiming to have been in error.

Mark, as you pointed out, is seeing his mistakes and is dealing with them and with those who may have been hurt in an open and honest way, as far as what we hear.  In no way am I trying to stir anything up, and I hope by this post to clarify that fact.  

The people who stood by and let it all happen are a mix of victims and perpetrators, withvarying degrees of guilt and responsibility.  Mark is one of those, as also am I.  We each must deal with it as we see fit.

My point in posting was because it appeared to me that some people were confused about whether he, or anyone else knew what was going on "behind the scenes."  Very likely Mark didn't know a thing about the adultery.  That's not hard to believe at all, and I am almost certain that he was totally caught off guard by the sudden revelation of George's hidden life.

What I am saying is merely a restating of the facts: Mark and others KNEW that things were not right with George, because of his treatment of David and Judy.  They had enough information to disqualify George years ago, but for whatever reason they didn't.  

It is that last statement that defines what they need to repent of, and make right with people.  

I am most certainly glad to hear that Mark is doing this, and in no way was my post an attempt to discourage of belittle him.  On the contrary, I'm happy about it.

Applause, recognition?  Funny you should say that, I was going to ask Steve and Margaret to take my last name off of the website, so that I am not associated with all of it on the search engines as much....but I guess I really do like the attaboys...so I'll enjoy them until I can email the Irons and ask them to do the tedious job of removing my last name.

The only reason I did it in the first place is because no one else would.  I sure didn't do it for applause.  I have other outlets in my life that are far more rewarding.

Margaret, if you are reading this, how about removing my name from the GA.com stuff?  Just make it Brent T. instead?

[vernecarty]

Love believes all things, endures all things, hopes all things, doesn't take into account when it is wronged.......

Sondra

...rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth...
Verne

[Eulaha L. Long]

First of all, I'm not coming back as a frequent poster. 
Second of all, I am glad to hear that Mark Miller is doing well, and is reconciling with people.

I am writing this to make sure to remind people who forget recent history, or who may wish to re-write history.

Mark Miller knew something was quite wrong with George years ago.  It's in the timeline on GA.com, it's mentioned in many stories and accounts, and I myself told him the trouble with David and Judy in 1996 or prior.

He probably didn't know about George's adultery, but there was plenty more going on besides that that should have been addressed.

George practiced nepotism with his sons, especially David.  What kind of man appoints a man like David Geftakys to a position of prominence and power in a "christian" ministry?---a scoundrel, that's who.  (what kind of men stand by and say "Amen" to this sort of thing?  LB's and workers, that's who.)

George manipulated and hid information regarding his son from all the LB's and workers.  Again, what kind of man does this?  What kind of person stands by and says "Amen" to George, when it's clear he was being a scoundrel?

George handled all the finances, and gave no account to anyone.  What kind of man does this....

I asked those questions to myself in about 1999.  In order to find out the answers I made phone calls to people from George's past.  I found out about the adultery from them.

Why did I do that? Because logic and reason told me that George was rotten, and I should check out a few things about him that we all took for granted.

I wasn't a leading brother or worker, which is why I was able to dial a phone and ask questions leading me to the truth about George.

Mark, Dan, and others knew enough about George to ask questions and dial phone numbers, but they didn't.  If they were blind enough to not suspect that George was a scoundrel, after serving him all those years, can anyone be surprised they were ignorant of his adultery?

I am truly glad to hear of Mark's recovery and repentence.  It would be neat to hear from him, personally.

brent T

Hi Brent!

We don't always agree on a lot of things, but on this matter, you are RIGHT ON.  I was reading through some of the articles and other information on geftakysassembly.com, and came to many of the same conclusions you did. 

[moonflower2]

First of all, I'm not coming back as a frequent poster. 
Second of all, I am glad to hear that Mark Miller is doing well, and is reconciling with people.

I am writing this to make sure to remind people who forget recent history, or who may wish to re-write history.

Mark Miller knew something was quite wrong with George years ago.  It's in the timeline on GA.com, it's mentioned in many stories and accounts, and I myself told him the trouble with David and Judy in 1996 or prior.

He probably didn't know about George's adultery, but there was plenty more going on besides that that should have been addressed.

George practiced nepotism with his sons, especially David.  What kind of man appoints a man like David Geftakys to a position of prominence and power in a "christian" ministry?---a scoundrel, that's who.  (what kind of men stand by and say "Amen" to this sort of thing?  LB's and workers, that's who.)

George manipulated and hid information regarding his son from all the LB's and workers.  Again, what kind of man does this?  What kind of person stands by and says "Amen" to George, when it's clear he was being a scoundrel?

George handled all the finances, and gave no account to anyone.  What kind of man does this....

I asked those questions to myself in about 1999.  In order to find out the answers I made phone calls to people from George's past.  I found out about the adultery from them.

Why did I do that? Because logic and reason told me that George was rotten, and I should check out a few things about him that we all took for granted.

I wasn't a leading brother or worker, which is why I was able to dial a phone and ask questions leading me to the truth about George.

Mark, Dan, and others knew enough about George to ask questions and dial phone numbers, but they didn't.  If they were blind enough to not suspect that George was a scoundrel, after serving him all those years, can anyone be surprised they were ignorant of his adultery?

I am truly glad to hear of Mark's recovery and repentence.  It would be neat to hear from him, personally.

brent T

Yes, Brents, it's good to see you post again, and to be reminded of all the time and work you spent on exposing the truth about the greek empire and your more recent clarification in the post above. Again, thank you.

Speaking of workers wanting to deal with private apologies, etc., I am still impressed with the public apology from Danny Edwards on this BB. He went to where the people were to apologize and make himself available to anyone who wanted to communicate with him. The CA cover-up affected all the assemblies, not just the goldrush descendents.

Moonflower

[Sondra Jamison]

They had enough information to disqualify George years ago, but for whatever reason they didn't.  

It is that last statement that defines what they need to repent of, and make right with people.  

Brent, I love you, but you are wrong to rehearse Mark’s failures AGAIN!!  And you did point out Mark’s as the main theme of your post contrary to what you claimed in defense.  You said George this and so…..then “Mark should have…..”  “Mark did this and that…”  You disapproved Mark’s character by saying, “What kind of man….” And you put yourself up above him in character by way of comparison.  “He did this and so” – in contrast “I did this and so.”  The only contest is who will forgive their brother quicker.  They are God’s sons who will love and forgive their brother.  There it is….love is of the will.  Will you? Or Will you continue to enumerate and remind people to renew their offenses?  Who needs help with being offended anyway?  It's easy enough. 

Seeker is wrong.  I would fight as hard for your forgiveness as Mark Miller’s, Brent.  I am not a condemner.  I do love you as a brother in Christ, but “I also Seek” justice through Christ.  And I love Verne.  I could ring his Calvinistic neck sometimes, but I do love him. 

Btw. Verne, you are also wrong in saying that rehearsing Mark’s failures is not “rejoicing in iniquity.”  That is exactly what it is.  I thank you for actually pinpointing it.  And “rejoicing in the truth” – again, there is a higher truth beyond “the facts of our sin” that sets the prisoner free.  Almost everyone want to wave that "Truth" banner.  Obviously everyone who waves those banners of truth, while perhaps having some truth, will always be trumped by God's truth that is based upon perfect love .  Our facts are not always God's ultimate facts, praise God!   

Brent, are the facts of enumerated sin the issue when you are on your face before God because of your own grievous sin? Or is forgiveness a greater truth that was purchased at a high price.   Christ did not die, ho-hum.  He died passionately for Mark Miller…and IMO, Mark Miller has given his life for the Lord people passionately, yes, with failure.  Yes, he should have known, should have confronted, should have been better.....  Yes, shoulda, woulda, coulda…..   

Truth?  Isn’t there a greater truth found in Christ or is truth found in reciting “the facts” or past errors?  Criticizing is easy.  It is hard work to believe, to run the race, to stay positive, to forgive, to love, to trust, to depend on God, to sacrifice, to build.  This is the Truth….as it is in Christ Jesus.  God is busy with the positive.  It is not difficult to find reasons not to forgive. 

Tearing down is easy.  Building is hard.
Remembering sins/reminding is easy.  Forgeting/forgiving/unminding is hard.   


Sondra

[vernecarty]

Sondra let me try to give you another perspective on this.
What was it that allowed George to continue his charade for as long as he did?
Granted that there will always be wolves in sheep's clothing as we are clearly warned in the Scripture, the fact is that the primary defense against men of this sort are faithful elders.

It is the silence and inaction of men charged with that responsibility that allowed George to do what he did and for as long as he did!

Your rebuke of Brent is unwarranted.

It is unwarranted because his post is attempting to demonstrate the importance of not remaining silent.
Brent had not posted for quite some time and did so only to refute Christina's erroneous contention that Mark was ignorant of what was going on behind the scenes.
Although I was not as  blunt as Brent, the fact is that sort of claim in view of what we know is ludicrous
Mark knew enough to act, and to act long before he found himself in the position that he did.
Rather than addressing the truth of what  Brent stated, you attack him and impugn his motives.
Sondra you and I have made our  peace, but what you are doing here is wrong.
We will never truly recover from the assembly fiasco until and unless we are prepared to acknowledge the awful failure of those charged with oversight, of whom Mark Miller was one.
This is not being said in spirit of condemnation or rejection.
It is in fact a demonstation of the willingness to speak the truth that was so tragically absent all the years that Geftakys had free reign to destroy the lives that he did, and in my view the most critical lesson we can learn from that experience.
Verne

[Sondra Jamison]

Sondra let me try to give you another perspective on this.
What was it that allowed George to continue his charade for as long as he did?
Granted that there will always be wolves in sheep's clothing as we are clearly warned in the Scripture, the fact is that the primary defense against men of this sort are faithful elders.

It is the silence and inaction of men charged with that responsibility that allowed George to do what he did and for as long as he did!

Your rebuke of Brent is unwarranted.

It is unwarranted because his post is attempting to demonstrate the importance of not remaining silent.
Brent had not posted for quite some time and did so only to refute Christina's erroneous contention that Mark was ignorant of what was going on behind the scenes.
Although I was not as  blunt as Brent, the fact is that sort of claim in view of what we know is ludicrous
Mark knew enough to act, and to act long before he found himself in the position that he did.
Rather than addressing the truth of what  Brent stated, you attack him and impugn his motives.
Sondra you and I have made our  peace, but what you are doing here is wrong.
We will never truly recover from the assembly fiasco until and unless we are prepared to acknowledge the awful failure of those charged with oversight, of whom Mark Miller was one.
This is not being said in spirit of condemnation or rejection.
It is in fact a demonstation of the willingness to speak the truth that was so tragically absent all the years that Geftakys had free reign to destroy the lives that he did, and in my view the most critical lesson we can learn from that experience.
Verne

Thanks for your courtesy, Verne.  As usual, you have ignored my points in my post though.  I don't know if it is that "venus/mars" thing or not, but anyway, you have simply gone back to "a truth."  What about the greater truth according to God's Word....forgiveness?  Yes, all the facts, but after we cried, after we died, after we were angry, after we grieved....then, do we forgive or keep rehearsing the sins?  And where is God on this?

I need to be out all day, so don't run away with the farm while I'm gone.  I don't want to hear that Mark Miller has been kidnapped or something when I get back.   

[Elizabeth H]

There is a time for the hawk & there is a time for the dove.

Brent, we are all indebted to you for sounding the alarm bell of truth, for being brave enough to ferret out the sin and expose it for all to see.

But Sondra is right, too. There comes a time for allowing the dove of reconciliation to replace the hawk. If the hawk is still circling, the dove will be frightened away. Forgiveness takes place quietly. If Mark is choosing to make his amends quietly & one-on-one, then believe his daughter when she says he is trying to do so. At least he is trying.

If Christina says her dad didn't know about the adultery, I believe her. Yes, he knew about the David/Judy abuse and did nothing---to his shame. But when the adultery was exposed, EVERYONE was caught off guard. Everyone was horrified & heartbroken. That is why all the LB's stepped down (at least, in Fullerton). For most of us, it was too little too late.

Yes, the abuse cover-up should have disqualified George long before the adultery came to light. But it didn't. The adultery did. Again, that is why the LB's stepped down---to acknowledge their failure in oversight of the flock.

Some of the LB's wrote open letters, some posted on this board. Others may go about it more quietly.

The truth HAS been spoken, archived & preserved for posterity on ga.com.

Christina & Sondra are right: we are not trying to re-write history, we are trying to reconcile it. Forgiveness is the payment that allows the debt to be paid in full.
 

[editor]

If Christina says her dad didn't know about the adultery, I believe her. Yes, he knew about the David/Judy abuse and did nothing---to his shame. But when the adultery was exposed, EVERYONE was caught off guard. Everyone was horrified & heartbroken. That is why all the LB's stepped down (at least, in Fullerton). For most of us, it was too little too late.

Yes, the abuse cover-up should have disqualified George long before the adultery came to light. But it didn't. The adultery did. Again, that is why the LB's stepped down---to acknowledge their failure in oversight of the flock.

Some of the LB's wrote open letters, some posted on this board. Others may go about it more quietly.

The truth HAS been spoken, archived & preserved for posterity on ga.com.

Christina & Sondra are right: we are not trying to re-write history, we are trying to reconcile it. Forgiveness is the payment that allows the debt to be paid in full.
 

Yes, yes...yes and yes.

I agree completely.  Let's invite the doves, but let's not say that people didn't know something was wrong.

Adultery...big surprise for many.
Abuse, unaccountability, nepotism...that was done in broad daylight.  I agree with everything you say above.

I'm a hawk, and I'm outahere!

[vernecarty]

 What about the greater truth according to God's Word....forgiveness? 

Good point.
Hey Brentmeister, one last question before you go ( I will be also outtahere come Jan 1):

Have you forgiven those guys for all the offenses you suffered at their hands?

I know that I can say that I have and done so joyfully!

Man God has been good to me!!   
In the Joy of His Service,
Verne

[outdeep]

There is a time for the hawk & there is a time for the dove.

Brent, we are all indebted to you for sounding the alarm bell of truth, for being brave enough to ferret out the sin and expose it for all to see.

But Sondra is right, too. There comes a time for allowing the dove of reconciliation to replace the hawk. If the hawk is still circling, the dove will be frightened away. Forgiveness takes place quietly. If Mark is choosing to make his amends quietly & one-on-one, then believe his daughter when she says he is trying to do so. At least he is trying.

If Christina says her dad didn't know about the adultery, I believe her. Yes, he knew about the David/Judy abuse and did nothing---to his shame. But when the adultery was exposed, EVERYONE was caught off guard. Everyone was horrified & heartbroken. That is why all the LB's stepped down (at least, in Fullerton). For most of us, it was too little too late.

Yes, the abuse cover-up should have disqualified George long before the adultery came to light. But it didn't. The adultery did. Again, that is why the LB's stepped down---to acknowledge their failure in oversight of the flock.

Some of the LB's wrote open letters, some posted on this board. Others may go about it more quietly.

The truth HAS been spoken, archived & preserved for posterity on ga.com.

Christina & Sondra are right: we are not trying to re-write history, we are trying to reconcile it. Forgiveness is the payment that allows the debt to be paid in full.
 

Thanks.  Wise and well-said.

-Dave

[M2]

Yes, yes...yes and yes.

I agree completely.  Let's invite the doves, but let's not say that people didn't know something was wrong.

Adultery...big surprise for many.
Abuse, unaccountability, nepotism...that was done in broad daylight.  I agree with everything you say above.

I'm a hawk, and I'm outahere!

All,

In Sondra's case it may be more like 'the eagles have landed', eh ??

Interesting discussion, and while I agree that I cannot keep tabs on the status of repentance of each leader(LB,LBW,worker), this is the first (from Christina and Sondra) that I heard that Mark was expecting people to approach him one-on-one.  BTW I do not have anything to query Mark about, but maybe there are others that might have, and I guess they now know how to proceed.

Also, like I've stated previously, I have forgiven any who have repented.  This discussion does raise the question as to why a repentant leader would not want to make a public statement.  It would clarify things for all of us who were affected by the decisions that came from "headquarters".

I suppose that was more hawk-ish than dove-ish.
Marcia