its nice to be one of the elite superovercomers

[brian]

(note: this post is not from brian the moderator, but just plain brian)

is anyone else a little creeped out by overcomer discussions that use the word 'brother' a lot??
in my personal experience, if someone is really deeply concerned about who is a biblical overcomer and who isn't they have deeper issues than some finer point of religious theory. i am more concerned about overcoming those who would attempt to dominate and control me and those i care about using this kind of belief system.

just my .02,

brian

[Sondra Jamison]

(note: this post is not from brian the moderator, but just plain brian)

is anyone else a little creeped out by overcomer discussions that use the word 'brother' a lot??
in my personal experience, if someone is really deeply concerned about who is a biblical overcomer and who isn't they have deeper issues than some finer point of religious theory. i am more concerned about overcoming those who would attempt to dominate and control me and those i care about using this kind of belief system.

just my .02,

brian

Brian,

In response to this post, I have to say that I am shocked at your cynicism regarding the meaning of "Overcomer" which, btw, was taught at length in the Assembly.  Many have felt like failures to overcome and need an understanding of what the scriptures teach, therefore, detailed discussion is needed.  No one is trying to put themselves up as that "Overcomer" - that I can tell.  But to say the scriptures are meaningless and "creepy" that refers to reward, inheritance, overcoming receiving special status according to Revelation - misses the point and dampens the flow of the board, IMO.

Calling one another brother is also part and parcel of Christian community, although I rarely use it, personally.

Hope you have a great Thanksgiving.

Sondra

 

[Oscar]

Brian,

In response to this post, I have to say that I am shocked at your cynicism regarding the meaning of "Overcomer" which, btw, was taught at length in the Assembly.  Many have felt like failures to overcome and need an understanding of what the scriptures teach, therefore, detailed discussion is needed.  No one is trying to put themselves up as that "Overcomer" - that I can tell.  But to say the scriptures are meaningless and "creepy" that refers to reward, inheritance, overcoming receiving special status according to Revelation - misses the point and dampens the flow of the board, IMO.

Calling one another brother is also part and parcel of Christian community, although I rarely use it, personally.

Hope you have a great Thanksgiving.

Sondra

 

Perhaps the proverbial saying, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" is part of Brian's thinking.  He spent most of his childhood watching and experiencing a wide range of abuses by people that constantly used the vocabulary of "overcoming".  In fact, submitting to the abuses was considered a sign of spiritual maturity, brokenness, and "going the way of the cross." 

The lesson he learned, I suspect, was not to accept uncritically someone's claims of advanced spiritual status and understanding.   IMHO, that is not a bad idea.

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[Sondra Jamison]

Perhaps the proverbial saying, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" is part of Brian's thinking.  He spent most of his childhood watching and experiencing a wide range of abuses by people that constantly used the vocabulary of "overcoming".  In fact, submitting to the abuses was considered a sign of spiritual maturity, brokenness, and "going the way of the cross."

Unfortunately, from one's pc, one cannot see into another’s home’s to know if a poster is beating his wife in between posts or smoking pot in the evening after dinner...being a hypocrit.  Should all posting stop because we don’t have camera’s that allow us to watch a poster’s personal life?  Should we throw biblical, traditional Christian terms away and avoid using them because Brian and others have experienced their use in hypocrisy?  Btw.  I know Brian's parents and they are not hypocrites although I am sure they are still on a learning curve just like most of the rest of us.

The lesson he learned, I suspect, was not to accept uncritically someone's claims of advanced spiritual status and understanding.   IMHO, that is not a bad idea.

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

I am sure Brian isn’t alone, but just because one person bought a VW that was a lemon, does that mean that we go around with a yellow can of paint and paint all VW’s yellow?  I got sick on hotdogs once and I didn’t eat another hotdog for about 20 years.  I think you get the point.

People fear what they don’t understand and that makes it important to discuss subjects that have been a source of fear and misunderstanding.

I have another question, Tom.  When we see that God, through John, epitomizes an overcoming believer by tying it to certain overcoming behavior, why would you mock the idea by signing “undercomer.”  Is that to say God made a mistake is speaking about overcoming?  The word itself indicates that someone is doing something greater in some way than someone else.  It cannot mean all Christians.  Why even make the point in Revelation if all believers will receive all of those things that are listed as honors? 

From what I read you believe “overcoming” refers to sin issues.  Overcoming, IMO, is about perfecting love in the life of a believer…..over perhaps decades or a lifetime of walking with God.

Christians can never be quiet enough about their faith for unbelievers, Tom.  Why are you condoning the “hush up” on a subject that several were feeling was very helpful?

Sondra

[Joe Sperling]

Sondra----

Reading Brian's and Tom's posts below, I don't see where either of them is asking
for a "hush-up" of the discussion of overcoming. Brian simply offered an "opinion"
(he even said 'this is not brian the moderator, but just plain Brian'). To HIM it is
"creepy" when someone uses the term 'brother' in the discussion of overcoming.

But I would like to mention something that no one brought up on the other thread. What is
an inheritance? Is it something you "earn" through years of faithfulness, or something that is
yours from birth? I think the latter.

Remember the story of the Prodigal Son? The YOUNGER brother went to the father and asked
for his half of the inheritance which he KNEW was his.  Had he "earned" this through faithfulness?
Obviously not, as he proceeded to go and blow all of it on prostitutes and liquor. We all know how
awful it was for Esau to have sold his inheritance(birth-right) for a pot of stew, but have you consid-
ered how terrible it was for this son to take his inheritance and spend it the way he did?

But Esau simply cried because of his loss, while the Prodigal son returned home, thinking to ask his
father to make him "like one of his servants". But when the father saw the son a long way off he began to run to him. He embraced his son, and brought him home, killed the fatted calf and put a
ring on his finger!!  Though this son had blown his inheritance, the father still loved him deeply, and
received him back to himself.

Now the older son began to complain. "I've served you faithfully for years, and have never left your side, but you've never killed a fatted calf for ME, or put a ring on MY finger!!"  The father replies that all that he has is his , but he has found his son who was lost but now is found. The older son felt he "deserved" something for his years of service--but he ALREADY HAD his inheritance from birth. The point being, do you serve your father faithfully for years to "obtain" something, or because you love him, and continue to serve even though you realize all things are already yours?

When we are born-again we "obtain" an inheritance--just as these two "sons" had. The inheritance is ours through PROMISE of a Father to his sons. Now here is a strange question I will pose based on the story of the prodigal son.  When we are born-again do we begin to strive to obtain an inheritance through our faithfulness? Or is it that we want to be faithful because of the great love we have for a father who has already given us everything we'll ever need forever?

--Joe

[outdeep]

I have had "undercomer" under my name in all my posts since I joined this BB.  It is making light of the teaching that says that a typical Christian simply has bare bones salvation.  A certain subset of Christians, deemed overcomers, are those who attain some sort of unknown critieria and thereby would have special priviliges in the kingdom (attend the Marriage supper, see God, attain the rapture, etc.)  This teaching fueled the exclusivism attitudes of the Assembly that viewed Christians in other churches as merely "walking in the light that they have" but it also placesed great burden on those who were constantly aware of their shortcomings.  In short, it produced both the tormented guilty as well as the rejoicing blowhard.  I can honestly say that at different times, I was both.

I personally thing that, in the book of Revelation, the "overcomer" was the church that overcame the specific problem and/or trial that Jesus was speaking to those churches.  Ephesis needed to overcome by returning to their first love.  Smyrna had to stand fast in persecution.  Thyatira had to deal with an influential "prophetess" in their midst that was exercising influence.  Those who overcame and dealt with the situations Jesus brought to their attention were overcomers.  Those who didn't, had their "lampstands removed", i.e., you can travel to the geographical location today and find that the church is no longer there.

[Elizabeth H]

(note: this post is not from brian the moderator, but just plain brian)

is anyone else a little creeped out by overcomer discussions that use the word 'brother' a lot??
in my personal experience, if someone is really deeply concerned about who is a biblical overcomer and who isn't they have deeper issues than some finer point of religious theory. i am more concerned about overcoming those who would attempt to dominate and control me and those i care about using this kind of belief system.

just my .02,

brian

Hi just plain Brian.

Ah-men & ah-meen.

The Christians I've met who thrive on any debate regarding _______________(name your spiritually controversial subject), use all the talk as masks by which to hide their deeper issues. It's really not about winning the Theologia Contest. No, really, it's not.

Just ask your kids. All they want is for you to attend their soccer game or take them out for ice-cream.

Can we just leave it at: Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God?

E.

[Oscar]

Sondra,

I have another question, Tom.  When we see that God, through John, epitomizes an overcoming believer by tying it to certain overcoming behavior, why would you mock the idea by signing “undercomer.”  Is that to say God made a mistake is speaking about overcoming?  The word itself indicates that someone is doing something greater in some way than someone else.  It cannot mean all Christians.  Why even make the point in Revelation if all believers will receive all of those things that are listed as honors? 

My purpose in placing the word "Undercomer" under my name is not meant to mock anything or anyone.  It is a declaration of my belief that full salvation is obtained by all believers "by grace, through faith."

From what I read you believe “overcoming” refers to sin issues.  Overcoming, IMO, is about perfecting love in the life of a believer…..over perhaps decades or a lifetime of walking with God. 

 I also never said that Christians have nothing to overcome. 

What I did say is that the Bible never calls anyone an overcomer.  It also never teaches that Christians are divided into two separate classes of "overcomers" and non-overcomers.  Not a word about this in the whole book.

Christians can never be quiet enough about their faith for unbelievers, Tom.  Why are you condoning the “hush up” on a subject that several were feeling was very helpful?

Here I must confess that I don't have a clue what you are talking about.  Exactly what "hush up" do you refer to?  Who said no one was supposed to talk about this? 

Not me.  Not anyone else that I noticed.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[brian]

In response to this post, I have to say that I am shocked at your cynicism regarding the meaning of "Overcomer" which, btw, was taught at length in the Assembly.

exactly, and the reason it was taught in the assembly was because it was part of the whole package of perfomace based salvation that kept people in line, sacrificing their time, money, energy, families and happiness for the exploiters benefit. george wasn't overcoming anything except other peoples ability to think for themselves. he was exploiting them. and this was passed on to others who either believed in it naively themselves or saw its value in exploiting others. in either case, the result was the same - they passed it on to others who were vulnerable to it, while calling them brother.

i was raised in an atmosphere saturated with this abusive dynamic. i understand it thoroughly. thus when anyone approaches me with the deep desire to convince me that there are some christians who are overcomers and other who are not and the ones who are will get more rewards even tho they suffer more now, i am quite certain that they have either been exploited themselves or they are conciously trying to exploit me. especially if they say brother a lot.

i can see how it would helpful for some people to discuss this in detail, in order to understand it better and be set free from teaching that made them vulnerable to exploitation. can you understand how it is not helpful to other people who will just tune out (if not downright distrust) anyone saying those words?

i am far more concerned with how people are actually living their lives, than with how they feel about their overcomer status. have they made peace with their disappointments in life, such as their experience with the assembly? are they able to communicate how they did so in a helpful way to others? are they building people up, or tearing them down?  and lots of other things along the same lines.

brian

[Mark C.]

Hi All!

   I think Tom has done a very good job answering the "overcomer" questions from the bible.  You can't approach this question by pulling out a text here and there as a proof text for you will ignore other one's that contradict the point you are trying to prove.

   Tom shows the importance of developing a consistent theology from the entire revealed text vs. the proof text method we learned so well under GG. 

  I will confess to one and all that I tried my very best to be the most pure, committed, surrendered, yielded, dead to self, denying myself etc. (all by faith in God's grace, btw) believer that I could be, however----- I never improved my actual character one little bit as attempted to assainate my sinful old man!

  I can actually prove that it made me a much worse person in my vain attempt.  It was like a religious version of binging and purging (bulimia/anorexia) where a good thing (losing weight) becomes very unhealthy.  I also have a huge store of biograhies of others that proves this same point.

  In the Assembly (as I pursued excellence) I was so "humble" I let people I knew who were lying walk all over me and watched in silence while God's little children were abused!!!

  Christ like??!!   In Christ??!!  In The Spirit??!!  Oh Brother!

    I have discovered that I am very, very, far away from expressing the actual love of God (the pinnacle of God's holy nature) and if there is anything in my actual experience that demonstrates even a small part of this I can only thank God's grace.

  If we follow a teaching that makes us proud, rude, cruel, unloving, vindictive, malicious etc. maybe we ought to get the idea that we are not on the right track?

   A recovering alcoholic following the 12 step program (for the third time) is much closer to God than somebody like GG who thinks he's one of the elitle superovercomers that is the subject of this thread.

                     God bless those that know they need it!   Mark C.