the still small voice, again

[Jem]

OK, first a disclaimer. I have read the endless discussions about this and have absolutely no desire to start yet another debate by the Big Three, so Puuulease let's not do that. It's one reason why so few post anymore. As I type I can already hear one of the three saying, "You see, this is deeper life doctrine and it all started with the PB's and George just leached their stuff, blah, blah, blah..." I am well versed in doctrine. But since leaving the assembly what I have been attracted to is life. Lived doctrine. This kind of thing doesn't happen every day--and I don't ask God what kind of toothpaste I should buy so let's not get ridiculous--but it has happened enough that it is hard to ignore.

So hear's the thing, Wednesday morning I woke up and immediately was thinking about my friend I'll call J. She was in my prayers as I started my time with the Lord (yes, I still have them). Thoughts about her were quite distracting. I read the next Psalm that I was in, 77, and thought this is the voice of depression. The Psalmist on a downer. And I thought of J because she is going through counseling(with a very Biblically based counselor) and dealing with childhood abuse that led to very adult sin. I tried to pass off my connecting that scripture to J as just being obvious that she could learn much from the Psalm. "Has the Lord forgotten to be gracious?" etc. But all day long the "little voice" kept reminding me of J and of Psalm 77 in an almost annoying way. I tried to call J all day, but didn't get her. About noon these thoughts became very intense so I went in my room and prayed through Psalm 77, praying for J. The rest of the afternoon I thought of her, but my thoughts turned--as the Psalm does--from petition to worship.

Thursday I hardly thought of J at all. Friday I took a long walk with her. When I do this I mostly just listen to her because of the intense counseling she is going through. I'm sort of a designated outlet (Confess your faults one to another that you may be healed). Anyway, about half way through the walk she said she'd had a very bad day on Wednesday, very depressed. The morning was very difficult, but about noon she read...you guessed it...Psalm 77 and said the afternoon she spent worshipping and recounting all the Lord had done for her.

So I guess the question is do you think that was the Holy Spirit or am I still just under the deception of the assembly deeper life thing? Was it just a really amazing coincidence? And the reason I ask is because I used to use the Word to justify why we did what we did in the assembly, but "the voice" was constantly there and I ignored it/Him, resisted it?Him. When we left the asssembly it was my disobedience to that voice, and obviously what it said through the Word, that I felt was the greatest of my sins needing to be repented of. But if the "still small voice" doesn't really exist (it does make me sound a bit mental doesn't it?), well, that's my question.

[moonflower2]

So I guess the question is do you think that was the Holy Spirit or am I still just under the deception of the assembly deeper life thing? Was it just a really amazing coincidence? And the reason I ask is because I used to use the Word to justify why we did what we did in the assembly, but "the voice" was constantly there and I ignored it/Him, resisted it?Him. When we left the asssembly it was my disobedience to that voice, and obviously what it said through the Word, that I felt was the greatest of my sins needing to be repented of. But if the "still small voice" doesn't really exist (it does make me sound a bit mental doesn't it?), well, that's my question.

IMO it's the Holy Spirit. It's happened to me, too, with those I'm close to.

[al Hartman]

Jem,

I don't pray about which toothpaste to buy either, but I do pause (when I think about it) to thank God for toothpaste, along with the myriad other blessings I take for granted.

I have been learning to accept such incidents as you describe for the blessing that they are, without falling into the trap of depending upon them.  Christ made it clear that He, as our great Shepherd, will lead us, His sheep, without specifying how He would do so.  The one sure thing is that the voice of God (in whatever manner we may "hear" it) will never violate the Word of God.  So if the voice I hear tells me to rob a convenience store, blow up a shopping mall, or collect porn, I tend to be skeptical (to put it mildly!).  But when I have experiences such as you tell of, I give the glory to God with thanks and move on.

A couple days ago I received the following in an e-mail.  I offer it here with the writer's permission as a testimony to "living our doctrine," as you so aptly put it:

I am COMPLETELY amazed by the idiocy of the rewards discussion.

I am AMAZED that I use to worry about that stuff too.

OH MY GOSH, I want to take this people and shake them. They sound like the
disciples in the upper room - completely clueless - full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing.

Do these guys know what it feels like to look at yourself in the mirror and
think "This is what I've become?" and wish you could retch it all up and
make it go away?

That's what losing out is all about. Humiliation, shame, sorrow, no longer
being amazed at your own depravity, amazed that you're no longer amazed.
Looking at your kids and wondering what's in store for them if you don't
pull it together.

Before that, I missed out too. My husband was angry all the time. All we
knew was anger and worry over what he'd be mad at next. The kids would
physically flinch. Though he never hit them, he used the assembly-style
vulcan grip. It was his favorite punitive punishment if the kids embarrassed
him in public.

THIS IS THE STUFF MEANT ABOUT MISSING OUT. Who in their right mind could
POSSIBLY think we could miss out as long as we have Jesus near and dear.
What else is there? Our home suffered because He wasn't there. Sure
I prayed, cried, hoped. And as long as I did that, He was there. But when I
began to give in to the doubts, fears and anger I began to lose sight of Him
and soon didn't even want Him there. I just wanted what I wanted - relief
and someone to love me.

Now everything is different. Peace is beginning to reign in our home.
Commoradity (sp), that has been absent for about a decade, is returning. I
don't know what these bb people think rewards are but THIS is reward for me.
God here with us. Nothing is better than that.

Blessings to all who read here,
al

[Mark C.]

Hi Jem!  (just had to use a few of these cool Santas  )

   I don't think that I'm one of the "Big three," and as such hope that my opinions are not too offensive .

   I can't imagine anyone interpreting your experience from the other day as being anything but God's miraculous intervention in your life.

  Why do you even question this experience as possibly being a throwback to "Assembly deeper life teaching?"

   "Deeper life", according to the NT, has to do with the kind of loving behavior that filled you with concern for "J." 

   If this is being "mental" then I think I would like to have more of that kind of "problem" in my own life!

  It's true that hearing "voices" can be a sign of a psyche out- of-whack, but I don't think Assembly folks were having those kind of problems.

  I know you don't want to revive a debate (and I don't wish to either) but, how I "hear" the Bible now, vs. while in the group, has made a huge difference in my life.

   If I were to expect that everyday what I read in my AM devotion must involve an experience such as you had it probably would come closer to what we were taught in the Assembly re. "hearing God's voice."  Or, that one must have some kind of devotional to "trigger" God's speaking/moving.

   Toward the middle of PS. 77 the Psalmist decides on a course inspite of the fact that his experience is suggesting that God has abandoned him----  not only did he feel like God was not speaking to him he also thought that God was not hearing him in the first 9 verses!

 vs.10---"then I thought----" I will remember---- I will meditate, consider, etc.."

   God never did, in this Psalm, interrupt the Psalmist's devotion by granting an experience of assurance (a voice, etc.), rather this writer chose to encourage himself in the facts of what he  already knew to be true about God--- which can more easily be described as just simple faith. 

   Is this the kind of "practical" response that is more appropriate in the guidance of our lives?  An expectation of God working his "great acts", because we know that this is the kind of God whom we serve.

   This is what "doctrine" should provide for our lives, a way out from the isolation from God we sometimes feel, because we know that in fact God is involved in our lives, those around us, and the world at large.

    Thanks very much for sharing this personal story and I will be praying for "J".

                                        God Bless,  Mark C. 

       

   

   

[outdeep]

Jem,

As our pastor has preached through 1 Corinthians 11-14 using a very honest expository method, I heard two clear challenges that I have taken to heart.  One is that I cannot discount the reality that God works and speaks in a way that may bypass my intellect just because there is much abuse in this area.  After all, even though there is counterfit money, I still believe in money.  Similarly, God may give a strong impression upon one's emotions or work in some way that is mystical, supernatural, or miraculous even though there is lots of nonsence carried out in the name of "God speaking to me" or "God is doing thus and thus".

The second challenge is this:  How does one know if God has truly spoken to or through them?  The answer is just what you did.  One goes to his brothers and sisters in the church and says, "I believe God has spoken to me thus and thus, what do you think" and the rest discern  (1 Corinthians 14:29).  Those who gravitate towards the supernatural because they use this kind of "God talk" to obtain a power status in the church or to get attention or because they want to manipulate others chaff at the idea of their prophecies being judged by others.  Those who have truly been spoken to by God realize that if God has indeed spoken, God will lay it upon the heart of other Christians as well and is not concerned about the scruteny.

I think the way you approached this is commendable.  You didn't come and say, "you need to accept what I said because God spoke to me."  I think it is commendable when someone says, "I think God may have spoken through me, what do you think?"

I think the coincidence could very well have been God putting upon both your hearts the same passage.

As for your dislike for things being assiociated with the Higher Life and Plymouth Brethren, etc.  This critisicm is not for this type of situation where someone is looking at their circumstances and pondering if the hand of God might be in it. The criticism of Higher Life is taking exception to a system where it is presumed that everyone has (or at least ought to have if they get with the program) the same spiritual experiences.  It is assumed that by a set of key principles that one can live victorious above the plane of other believers.   Since the pressure to conform to fellow spiritual heavy-weights is large, honest folks don't want to admit that inside they don't feel the spiritual victory that they talk about.  As a result, they either deny their feelings and put up a front that everything is OK or they struggle with intense feelings of guilt, unworthiness and failure.  Frankly, it is a distructive system and is worthy of criticism.

So, be open to the possibility that God may work supernaturally in your life.  At the same time, be careful and accountable lest you end up with something that is not unlike the Higher Life movement.

-Dave

[M2]

Re. the Big Three, I've figured out 1 and 2.  Who is #3??

Marcia

[vernecarty]

Re. the Big Three, I've figured out 1 and 2.  Who is #3??

Marcia

Hey!!

Are you talking to me?!!

Are you talking to me?!!

Are you talking to....?!!!...oops! there I go acting like one of the Big Three again...

But seriously, everytime somebody gets on the BB and start talking about how nobody posts because of what somebody else is or what somebody else does I don't take them too seriously as they clearly have other issues they are dealing with.
A forum like this is a great opporunity to learn what you are really made of:

How do you handle being misunderstood?
How do you handle being misrepresented?
How do you handle being wrong?
How do you handle being right?

I for one am grateful for the opporunity I had to learn a few things about myself.
Can you think of a better forum in which to learn how to display Christain grace?
Some have squandered an opporunity in IMHO.
Brian Tucker has run one of the most generous, tolerant, and generally open BBs anywhere on the web. Go check out a few.
I'll be gone in a few weeks. I hope some of you chronic shrinking violets step up to the plate and say what's on your mind as there will be one fewer of the Big Three     stopping you...

Verne

p.s. I don't know 'bout the rest of you but I for one really miss Brent's perspective...

[Elizabeth H]

So I guess the question is do you think that was the Holy Spirit or am I still just under the deception of the assembly deeper life thing? Was it just a really amazing coincidence? And the reason I ask is because I used to use the Word to justify why we did what we did in the assembly, but "the voice" was constantly there and I ignored it/Him, resisted it?Him. When we left the asssembly it was my disobedience to that voice, and obviously what it said through the Word, that I felt was the greatest of my sins needing to be repented of. But if the "still small voice" doesn't really exist (it does make me sound a bit mental doesn't it?), well, that's my question.

Jem,

Thank you for this thoughtful and uplifting post. I enjoyed it, truly.

It seems clear that God confirmed your experience of the "still, small voice" through the story your friend told you about what was happening in her life that very day. It was a beautiful example of God's grace in you and I hope you don't doubt it, ever!

I, too, have had similar experiences and those "coincidences" are some of my most cherished tokens of God's love toward me.

Thank you for bravely sharing this.

 

E.

[moonflower2]

But, isn't the real question, "Whooooooo is number 1?"

 

[vernecarty]

On the still small voice Tom has generally been the one advising caution.
Although he does this in a way that soemtimes appears dismissive, the man has a valid point and especially to us who came out of Geftakysm.
Most Christians can report some experience in which they felt God worked in their lives in an unusual way.
I think, and I don't want to speak for Tom, the point he was trying to make was that just because it was a genunine experience, does not make it any less subjective.
Here is what I think is a reasonable position with which I think Tom will agree.
While I may be prepared to accept someone's subjective experience as genuine, when it comes to one's actually making decisions, it ought to rely, so far as is possible, on objective truth.
You know the kind of people that come up to you with that look, and preface the advice they are about to give with: "The Lord spoke to my heart..." ?!
This is the kind of lunacy Tom I believe is objecting to and which was rampant in assembly-think and assembly-speak. The man is right. Just my two pennies.
Verne

[M2]

Hey!!

Are you talking to me?!!

Are you talking to me?!!

Are you talking to....?!!!...oops! there I go acting like one of the Big Three again...

But seriously, everytime somebody gets on the BB and start talking about how nobody posts because of what somebody else is or what somebody else does I don't take them too seriously as they clearly have other issues they are dealing with.
A forum like this is a great opporunity to learn what you are really made of:

How do you handle being misunderstood?
How do you handle being misrepresented?
How do you handle being wrong?
How do you handle being right?

I for one am grateful for the opporunity I had to learn a few things about myself.
Can you think of a better forum in which to learn how to display Christain grace?
Some have squandered an opporunity in IMHO.
Brian Tucker has run one of the most generous, tolerant, and generally open BBs anywhere on the web. Go check out a few.
I'll be gone in a few weeks. I hope some of you chronic shrinking violets step up to the plate and say what's on your mind as there will be one fewer of the Big Three     stopping you...

Verne

p.s. I don't know 'bout the rest of you but I for one really miss Brent's perspective...

I did not want to comment on Jem's post in case I was #3; hence my question.
Maybe I have to be part of the inner circle to get an answer to it eh??

Marcia

[Jem]

Didn't mean to cause a stir with "the Big Three" comment. Didn't want to offend anyone so I was speaking in general terms.

Marcia, no you are not one of them (sorry if you wanted to be 

And Verne, for me and a couple others I know it is not so much that we are afraid of being misunderstood, misrepresented or just plain wrong when the fighting starts (I have four teenagers, that is my world); it is more the tedium that is unattractive. It is almost amusing to go back and see what the original thread was about and what it ultimately became. And that is not to say that it was never interesting, but after awhile it all becomes the same. This happens quite often in blogdom, I know. On one blog I read there is a pack of Chrisitans whose answer to the war in Iraq, global warming and UN ineffectiveness is homeschooling. Everything always boils down to homeschooling with the same tired arguments so many people give up the blog due to a lack of real conversation and insight.

[M2]

Didn't mean to cause a stir with "the Big Three" comment. Didn't want to offend anyone so I was speaking in general terms.

Marcia, no you are not one of them (sorry if you wanted to be 

And Verne, for me and a couple others I know it is not so much that we are afraid of being misunderstood, misrepresented or just plain wrong when the fighting starts (I have four teenagers, that is my world); it is more the tedium that is unattractive. It is almost amusing to go back and see what the original thread was about and what it ultimately became. And that is not to say that it was never interesting, but after awhile it all becomes the same. This happens quite often in blogdom, I know. On one blog I read there is a pack of Chrisitans whose answer to the war in Iraq, global warming and UN ineffectiveness is homeschooling. Everything always boils down to homeschooling with the same tired arguments so many people give up the blog due to a lack of real conversation and insight.

I know this has become a sidetrack from the original point of this thread, but since you have received a response to that already I will proceed with this sidetrack.

IMO general terms offends more folk because it is not clear, especially if you mention a Big Three and no one really is sure if they are one of the 3 you are talking to.  I figured 1 & 2 to be Tom and Verne, but who is #3?

Marcia

On the still small voice Tom has generally been the one advising caution.
Although he does this in a way that soemtimes appears dismissive, the man has a valid point and especially to us who came out of Geftakysm.
Most Christians can report some experience in which they felt God worked in their lives in an unusual way.
I think, and I don't want to speak for Tom, the point he was trying to make was that just because it was a genunine experience, does not make it any less subjective.
Here is what I think is a reasonable position with which I think Tom will agree.
While I may be prepared to accept someone's subjective experience as genuine, when it comes to one's actually making decisions, it ought to rely, so far as is possible, on objective truth.
You know the kind of people that come up to you with that look, and preface the advice they are about to give with: "The Lord spoke to my heart..." ?!
This is the kind of lunacy Tom I believe is objecting to and which was rampant in assembly-think and assembly-speak. The man is right. Just my two pennies.
Verne

We figured that out, ie about Tom's opinion.  It just would have been nice to discuss the other side of the coin without Tom deleting posts and railroading the discussion.

Marcia

[Jem]

Yes, Tom and Verne were one and two. The other one I was thinking of was Sondra though she seems to have dropped off lately.

[Elizabeth H]

since we're sidetracking...

is the problem really The Big Three (Tom, Verne, Al or Dave)? I'm not convinced.

if there were more of the 550+ members posting, there would be diversity of thought. but most seem to have either moved on or, like Jem points out, gotten bored by the tedium.

i don't think things will change until more members post. is that likely? hard to say. but i don't think the problem is that Tom, Verne, Al & Dave post. The problem is that so few others do.

E.