the still small voice, again

[Elizabeth H]

oh yeah. i forgot about sondra. 

she hasn't weighed in since around thanksgiving. but i'm sure eventually something else will interest her (or irritate her) and she'll re-appear with lots of verses in tow. 

[al Hartman]

   ...and she'll re-appear with lots of verses in tow. 

Uh-huh...  Versus verses

[just me]

I, for one, try to start new posts and conversations.  But they all get buried in the mega long debates.  I always just click on the "10 most recent" button and you know what you find there.  So it is hard to maintain other threads that I think newcomers would enjoy.  It's hard for them to find them.  I guess we could just keep bumping to see if there is interest.  I truly think that most people have lost interest in assembly stuff though.  I told my spouse last night that I no longer care what George, Jim McA, Scott, Mike A. and company are up to.  What a blessed relief!  I never thought I would get to that point.
me

[Uncle Buck]

oh yeah. i forgot about sondra. 

she hasn't weighed in since around thanksgiving. but i'm sure eventually something else will interest her (or irritate her) and she'll re-appear with lots of verses in tow. 

I was hoping Sondra would weigh in on the divorce and remarriege discussion. She goes deep into subjects and posts verses to back her opinion. Though I don't agree with most of what she has written, I can appreciate her point of veiw. I like to look at things from different perspectives.

[Elizabeth H]

I was hoping Sondra would weigh in on the divorce and remarriege discussion. She goes deep into subjects and posts verses to back her opinion. Though I don't agree with most of what she has written, I can appreciate her point of veiw. I like to look at things from different perspectives.

Different perspectives are interesting so long as they don't become long-winded & overly preachy.

[Joe Sperling]

Just me---

There are many threads where you could keep a regular conversation going. I've noticed,
and I've been involved in them, that the long-winded debates usually start when someone
asks an obscure question about doctrine. But I've seen several other threads flourish with
humor, talks about singing groups or even pets. I think it all depends on what the subject
matter is. If someone enters and begins a thread, or enters a thread asking "So what do you
think of overcomer theology, etc" and recommends a book, you can be sure that some will
want to praise the book, but others will want to rebutt what it says.

I try not to get involved much in theological debates, but this last one hit a chord, and it was
very hard not to contribute, and to try to rebutt some of the stuff being said. But I've seen and
been involved with several threads that were very fun, and far from theological in nature.

--Joe

[Oscar]

Jem,

You wrote:

So I guess the question is do you think that was the Holy Spirit or am I still just under the deception of the assembly deeper life thing? Was it just a really amazing coincidence? And the reason I ask is because I used to use the Word to justify why we did what we did in the assembly, but "the voice" was constantly there and I ignored it/Him, resisted it?Him. When we left the asssembly it was my disobedience to that voice, and obviously what it said through the Word, that I felt was the greatest of my sins needing to be repented of. But if the "still small voice" doesn't really exist (it does make me sound a bit mental doesn't it?), well, that's my question.

It seems to me that there is a better question to ask.  You present two possibilities.  Either the experience was a coincidince or the "assembly deeper life thing."  I think it would be wise to consider other possibilities as well.

It is undeniable that people have experiences like the one you describe.  I know I have. There are other possible explanations though.  One is that different parts of the experience could have different causes. My best guess is that both of you reading the same Psalm is probably a conincidence.  Think about it. 

There are only 150 Psalms.  Many of us frequently read two or three at a time.  It is therefore highly likely that you and "J", and I as well, have all read the same psalm on the same day.  That part is quite likely to be a conicidence.

As to "J" comng to your mind.  She is a friend of yours, right?  You know she has some pretty serious problems as well.  Are you concerned about her?  If so, it is quite likely that you would think of her quite apart from any "inspiration."  I know that I think of, and pray for, friends who are hurting.

In other words, It is possible that the "still small voice" came from you!  We have a very active part of our mind, called the unconscious or subconscious by some, that is always at work.  Frequently, thoughts emerge unbidden.  Ever lose your car keys, wallet, or glasses...then later you suddenly remember where you left them?  Although your conscious attention becomes distracted by other important things that demand your attention, work and such, you keep working on the problem at a deeper level.  When you figure out the answer, it surfaces.

Try this.  Get up right now, get a piece of paper, and leave the room where your computer is. Then draw a diagram of your computer keyboard.  I'll bet you can't do it.  I certainly can't.  I could figure out the letters by "typing in the air", and some other things like periods and question marks, but not all of it.  But I can sit down and type at 60-80 WPM if I don't try to think about what I am doing.  My subconscious mind knows exactly where to type, but consciously, I can't visualize it at all.

Ever drive somewhere and realize you haven't been thinking about driving at all?  Scary, but did you run into anything?  Not usually anyway.

One of the insights I had that freed me from my belief in the "Biblical Pattern of Worship" came to me this way.  I had been lyiing on my bed, depressed and exhausted.  I got up to "use the restroom".  As I left the bathroom, just after I stepped through the door, the words, "the Lord's Supper" surfaced in my mind.  I got back on the bed, opened my bible, and read all the passages about the Lord's Supper in the NT.  I suddenly saw that what happened "on the first day of the week" was not what we were doing in the assembly at all!  The whole thing was an artificial construction, a "pattern" that was not actually described in the Bible!

Now, was that the Holy Spirit?  I don't know of any scripture that says "If a thought occurrs to you it is the voice of the Holy Spirit."  Could it have been?  Perhaps.  But that is as far as the evidence will take me. 

I could describe the experinece and say, "God spoke to me that night, and I was delivered."  But what really happened was that I thought about something.  Something I had been reading about for years, and had been thinking about recently.  It was more of a hunch than a message, and it did not contain information I did not already have.  If I suddenly had the thought, "Buy a lotto ticked with the numbers 44 33 22 11 99...and then I won 20 million or so....I would be reasonably certain of a supernatural source.  Which supernatural source is another question though.

Anyway, regardng your question: 1. I don't know of any biblical passage that teaches that this sort of thing is always the "voice of God".  2. We should consider all posibilities before we build a theological system on our experiences.

Blessings,

Evil Tom

[al Hartman]

1. I don't know of any biblical passage that teaches that this sort of thing is always the "voice of God". 

2. We should consider all posibilities before we build a theological system on our experiences.

While I have no disagreement with the above quote, there are a couple of points to which special attention should be given:

1. A key word is "always."  There is no Biblical reason to think that such experiences as Jem's are always, nor that they are never the leading of God.  Jesus' words to His disciples make clear that the Holy Spirit would lead them (Jn.16:7,13).  And the Acts and epistles offer many instances of the leading of the Holy Spirit, most if not all of which could easily be imagined to have been fantastic experiences OR simply attributable to normal everyday faculties such as Tom's post describes.  In other words, Paul, Peter and others may have simply acted upon their thoughts and attributed to God the production and precise timing of those thoughts.  Is there any reason that the Lord of creation, of heaven and earth, should not be credited with the functioning of minds and hearts devoted to Him?

2. Honoring God as the Producer of the fruit of our lives need not, and must not, constitute the "building of a theological system" based upon our experiences.  If we are to believe the Word of God, if we mean to take Him at His Word, then our experiences can be the basis of nothing, for all of our living must be founded upon what God has declared and promised.  This in no way prevents or limits our testifying to His authorship of the Christ-honoring longings of our hearts, mental conclusions and decisions that we reach, and our resultant actions.

As in all things, caution is advisable.  But caution carried to the extreme may be as great folly as extreme liberality.  We must learn to trust in God...

al

[vernecarty]

While I have no disagreement with the above quote, there are a couple of points to which special attention should be given:

1. A key word is "always."  There is no Biblical reason to think that such experiences as Jem's are always, nor that they are never the leading of God.  al

Exactly! Al has put his finger squarely on what I think is the central point.
As one who is convinced that God has many times used Scripture to speak powerfully into a space-time situation concerning me (as has countless believers), I used to feel a sense or real frustration over Tom's position on this.
However, when you consider what he says in the context of our former assembly teaching and practice, his caveat is well-placed in my opinion.
Verne

[M2]

Point well-taken E.
While it is true that what I see as a shameful silence in the face of wrong doing in the assemblies sometimes causes me to go to the other extreme, this is person I dare say that I know a lot better than you do.
I fully agree that you do not begin with "personal attack" and I might add neither should you end there.
I think, though, that one does have to speak the truth, albeit in love.
There comes a time, when in the face of persistent reprehensible conduct, voices should be loudly raised in condemnation.
I don't need to go into all the things that took place in Champaign.
I will tell you in no uncertain terms that they were reprehensible.
In my view, the best way to be helpful is to tell it like it is.

E I am going to go way out on a limb here. If you strongly disagree with me on this I will understand entirely.

Weak and willing women had a lot to do with the horror or what happened in the assemblies!

I have been blessed with a wife who is a remarkable combination of silk and steel.
She fully subscribes to the Biblical idea that as husband father that I am supposed to lead this family, and she fully expects that I do so.
The notion that I could ever in my wildest dreams attempt to do to my wife what some of these assembly neanderthals were taught to do to their wives makes me roll on the floor with mirth.

Her personal dignity and character would not for one second permit it!

For all those assembly women, who for miserable years have coddled their witless husbands, and stood idly by while they acted like street thugs and confused indulgence of this sort with godliness I say:

Shame on you!!!

If you have some idiot husband playing church in your living room every Sunday and ruining the social, spiritual and psychological health of your kids, that is not the time to feel hurt over some peon like me pointing out how completely stupid this is.
It is time for you as a mother, wife and child of God to get a clue!

Get out there and find a gathering of God's people where you can be fed, encouraged and built up in your faith.
Even more importantly, where the toxic effect of your years under Geftakys' evil influence can be miitigated by the ministrations of true men of God.

That may be true. I do think my approach is far more efficient though. This person if he reads here will have no doubt that I am indeed talking to and about him. I am prepared to continue the conversation in private if he is interested. I seriously doubt that I could ever be a help, despite my best intentions, to someone like this.
Verne
p.s, I do realise there were some instances in which Geftakys used the wives of men he wanted to control to absolutely castrate them...hard to say which was worse...

Maybe there is something to the saying "behind every great man stands a great woman" eh??  In terms of the assembly, "greatness" is having achieved some sort of status, leadership, great support of leadership, bringing ministry, being exercised ....  Ever consider how many of the wives are right with their husbands supporting them and encouraging them to achieve this status.

Liz et al, IMO the touchy sensitive individual will be offended by Verne's comments.  Possibly many of us do not know the real meaning of love and friendship.  At the risk of reviving (which I do not want to do) a discussion we've already had on this BB I will post these quotes:

PRO 5:3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey, And smoother than oil is her speech;
PRO 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.
PRO 17:17 A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity.

Marcia

Exactly! Al has put his finger squarely on what I think is the central point.
As one who is convinced that God has many times used Scripture to speak powerfully into a space-time situation concerning me (as has countless believers), I used to feel a sense or real frustration over Tom's position on this.
However, when you consider what he says in the context of our former assembly teaching and practice, his caveat is well-placed in my opinion.
Verne

Except, how can one be so unsure if it is the Holy Spirit leading and then be so sure that it is 'another' spirit leading...

Marcia

[outdeep]

While I have no disagreement with the above quote, there are a couple of points to which special attention should be given:

1. A key word is "always."  There is no Biblical reason to think that such experiences as Jem's are always, nor that they are never the leading of God.  Jesus' words to His disciples make clear that the Holy Spirit would lead them (Jn.16:7,13).  And the Acts and epistles offer many instances of the leading of the Holy Spirit, most if not all of which could easily be imagined to have been fantastic experiences OR simply attributable to normal everyday faculties such as Tom's post describes.  In other words, Paul, Peter and others may have simply acted upon their thoughts and attributed to God the production and precise timing of those thoughts.  Is there any reason that the Lord of creation, of heaven and earth, should not be credited with the functioning of minds and hearts devoted to Him?

2. Honoring God as the Producer of the fruit of our lives need not, and must not, constitute the "building of a theological system" based upon our experiences.  If we are to believe the Word of God, if we mean to take Him at His Word, then our experiences can be the basis of nothing, for all of our living must be founded upon what God has declared and promised.  This in no way prevents or limits our testifying to His authorship of the Christ-honoring longings of our hearts, mental conclusions and decisions that we reach, and our resultant actions.

As in all things, caution is advisable.  But caution carried to the extreme may be as great folly as extreme liberality.  We must learn to trust in God...

al

Al,

Your post reminded me of a Sunday school where we were discussing healing.  A physician stood up and said, "all healing is from God".  What he meant was that even though doctors and medicine are used as tools, we can trace the source of healing back to the Creator.  In this, a distinction may be made between general healing (I take an antibiotic and it works with my immune system to kill the virus in my system) and specific healing (My cancer disappears with no human intervention).  Ultimately, both are traced back to God being the source.

Similarly, we give thanks for our food.  Some food may have been the result of an industrious farmer who planted the food and a supply chain that brought it to market.  Other may have appeared from a gift that an angel left on our doorstep.  Still, we give thanks to God the Provider in both cases.

So also with the still small voice.  Whether it is general leading by the God of Providence who uses circumstances and subconscious to teach His children or whether God specifically bent down and whispered something in our ear might be a matter of debate.  But, I don't think it would be a profitable one as ultimately we can attribute trace both cases back to a personal God who benevolently oversees His creation.

[vernecarty]

Except, how can one be so unsure if it is the Holy Spirit leading and then be so sure that it is 'another' spirit leading...

Marcia

This is a very good question. None of us are beyond being deceived.
Clearly, discernment has a lot to do with maturity, and I think as we walk with the Lord we do become more sensitive to His leading in our lives.
One good way of answering your question is to compare how you think you are bing led, to what God says in His Word (the key thing that I think Tom wants to keep front and center).
Having determined that it is Scriptural, the determining factor in my mind would be what kind of fruit is produced.
These are the two measures that I have found helpful in this regard.
Verne

[Elizabeth H]

Maybe there is something to the saying "behind every great man stands a great woman" eh??  In terms of the assembly, "greatness" is having achieved some sort of status, leadership, great support of leadership, bringing ministry, being exercised ....  Ever consider how many of the wives are right with their husbands supporting them and encouraging them to achieve this status.

Liz et al, IMO the touchy sensitive individual will be offended by Verne's comments.  Possibly many of us do not know the real meaning of love and friendship.  At the risk of reviving (which I do not want to do) a discussion we've already had on this BB I will post these quotes:

PRO 5:3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey, And smoother than oil is her speech;
PRO 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.
PRO 17:17 A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity.

Marcia

Marcia,
I will respond to your post in the "Wounded Pilgrims" thread.
E.

[Jem]

Tom,

Or maybe that should be #1 of the big three  That little comment certainly ran amok didn't it?

As to your options to the Psalm 77 thing, I was quite stunned by it. Not because it was unreasonable or illogical, but that it was almost exactly how my father would have explained it away. Isn't that a coincidence? He was an atheist. There is no supernatural. There is no relationship with a personal God. There is only me and the decisions I make based on reason or that damnable flaw in man "subjectivity." Because I am my father's daughter in many ways I am not highly emotive nor have I made a "theological system" based on my experiences. But there are uncommon moments that I always thought were the Holy Spirit. You know, very rare 'gnosko' moments (I know I'm misspelling that if I even have the right word. I can't find my Greek dictionary at the moment. But it's the word 'to know' in the NT that means the experiential knowledge of God). Guess I should have listened to my daddy. You should see how he exlpained away answers to prayer.

[al Hartman]

Tom,

As to your options to the Psalm 77 thing, I was quite stunned by it. Not because it was unreasonable or illogical, but that it was almost exactly how my father would have explained it away. Isn't that a coincidence? He was an atheist...  You should see how he exlpained away answers to prayer.

Jem, I'm going out on a limb here to say that I don't believe Tom is "explaining away" either your experience OR your ideas about it.  I know how his post sounds-- it sounds that way to me, too.  But I have known the man for nearly forty years, and I think I understand what he means.  (This is where all the unhappy campers place me in Tom's "camp.")  The fact is that while I don't agree with the extent of Tom's cautioning, I still think that's what it is-- a warning against unwarranted interpretation of experience.

In beginning this thread, you asked:

So I guess the question is do you think that was the Holy Spirit or am I still just under the deception of the assembly deeper life thing? Was it just a really amazing coincidence?

Tom could have answered with an unqualified, "No, it was not the Holy Spirit and, yes, it was an amazing coincidence."  But he did not say that, nor did he claim to think that.  He did not even state that he believes your view to be unwarranted.  Rather, he has cautioned all of us to avoid allowing our views to become extra-scriptural.  As a fellow veteran of having witnessed many doctrinal errors and experiential abuses, both pre- & a-geftakysism, he has set forth a warning against extremism in a particular direction and, in so doing, has perhaps been somewhat extreme in another (or at least some are interpreting him as being so).

Here is some of what Tom said (with my emphases added to parts):

It seems to me that there is a better question to ask.  You present two possibilities.  Either the experience was a coincidince or the "assembly deeper life thing."  I think it would be wise to consider other possibilities as well.

It is undeniable that people have experiences like the one you describe. 
I know I have. There are other possible explanations though.  One is that different parts of the experience could have different causes. My best guess is that both of you reading the same Psalm is probably a conincidence. 

While some would no doubt love to say Tom is laying down inviolable law, he has actually simply stated his opinion. 

As for coincidence, I am guilty of having said that there are no coincidences, but I was wrong because of my definition of the term at the time.  The word coincidence has become commonly accepted to mean something accidental and unrelated.  But the more basic meaning of coincidence is simply that two or more events coincide, that is they take place at the same time or they apply to the same situation, whether by accident OR by design.  So coincidence certainly may be the direct work of God.

As to "J" comng to your mind.  She is a friend of yours, right?  You know she has some pretty serious problems as well.  Are you concerned about her?  If so, it is quite likely that you would think of her quite apart from any "inspiration."  I know that I think of, and pray for, friends who are hurting.

In other words, It is possible that the "still small voice" came from you!  We have a very active part of our mind, called the unconscious or subconscious by some, that is always at work.  Frequently, thoughts emerge unbidden.     ...When you figure out the answer, it surfaces.

We see Tom's "non-inspirational" leaning here, but he has not said that any or all of the above cannot be attributed to God, Who created our minds, conscious and subconscious, and Who is renewing them through our increasing knowledge of Jesus Christ.

One of the insights I had that freed me from my belief in the "Biblical Pattern of Worship" came to me this way.  I had been lyiing on my bed, depressed and exhausted.  I got up to "use the restroom".  As I left the bathroom, just after I stepped through the door, the words, "the Lord's Supper" surfaced in my mind.  I got back on the bed, opened my bible, and read all the passages about the Lord's Supper in the NT.  I suddenly saw that what happened "on the first day of the week" was not what we were doing in the assembly at all!  The whole thing was an artificial construction, a "pattern" that was not actually described in the Bible!

Now, was that the Holy Spirit?  I don't know of any scripture that says "If a thought occurrs to you it is the voice of the Holy Spirit."  Could it have been?  Perhaps.  But that is as far as the evidence will take me. 
 

And finally, neither does Tom claim to know of any scripture which states that our thoughts cannot be inspired by the Holy Spirit, but he admits that his experience, and therefore yours, "could have been" the Holy Spirit's working.  "Perhaps."  His warning is not for us to fear that God may work in our lives, but that we should beware of excesses in our attributions.

As I said in a previous post, let us give God the glory and move on to the next event...

Tom, please forgive and correct me if I have misinterpreted or misrepresented you.

al