Divorce discussion

[Oscar]

Folks,

I want to post something that will add to the discussion on divorce and remarriage.

However, I cannot find the discussion. 

Which thread was it in?

Thanks,

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

Folks,

I want to post something that will add to the discussion on divorce and remarriage.

However, I cannot find the discussion. 

Which thread was it in?

Thanks,

Thomas Maddux

Tom, scroll through these recent posts & see if you find what you want: http://www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?action=search2

otherwise, try using the "Search" feature at the top of this page.

al

[Uncle Buck]

Folks,

I want to post something that will add to the discussion on divorce and remarriage.

However, I cannot find the discussion. 

Which thread was it in?

Thanks,

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom,

'hopon' raised the discussion on Dec. 4th in the 'While it is yet called today ' thread ( sorry I can't provide a link for you to click on)
Chuck Miller brought up good points on the same thread Dec 5th.
I would appreciate your perspective because I know many sincere people who are divorced and remarried.

Buck

[Oscar]

Hi Tom,

'hopon' raised the discussion on Dec. 4th in the 'While it is yet called today ' thread ( sorry I can't provide a link for you to click on)
Chuck Miller brought up good points on the same thread Dec 5th.
I would appreciate your perspective because I know many sincere people who are divorced and remarried.

Buck

Buck,

Before I say what I think I want to point something out that is pertinant to the discussion:

Matthew 18:18 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (NASV)

This verse is in the context of the process an brother who has been sinned against by another brother should follow in seeking reconciliation.  The penalty the church is to inflict is to treat the unrepentant offender as "a Gentile and a tax collector." 

In the culture Jesus lived in this penalty meant complete rejection from the synagogue and from the society of godly people.  However, in our culture, it means nothing!  Almost all of us are Gentiles, and we have no compunction at all about associating and fellowshipping with people who work for the IRS or state and county tax collection services. 

If you view Jesus' statement as a statute, is ceases to be a penalty at all.  If, however, you view it as a principle that can be applied in different cultures, it is the ultimate penalty that the church can inflict on a believer.  That is how modern evangelicals view the passage.  Many other passages must also be understood in this way. 

For example, the "sermon on the mount." It speaks of such things as presenting offerings on the altar of the temple, and refers to a Roman law that a man must carry a soldier's pack for a specified distance.  Veiwed as statutes, these things lose any meaning for us.  Viewed as principles by which to live, they have very practical meanings.

Now the "sermon on the mount" also speaks of divorce.  In Matthew 5:32, it says, "...everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery..."  What does, "makes her commit adultry" mean?  If viewed as a statute, it would mean that she would permanently be in some sort of "state of adultry."  But then, if she actually commits adultery with another man and then her husband divorces her, she is not in such a state. Huh?    So I think we can be safe to assume that we are dealing with principles here and not statutes. Most commentators point out that "makes her commit adultery" means that since the only career paths for most women in Jesus' society were wife, harlot, or beggar, it means that she would most likely have to marry another man in order to avoid the other two alternatives.

If these instructions do fall under the category of "principles to live by", then other principles must be kept in mind when applying them.  Jesus chastised the Scribes with the words of Matthew 23:23:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!  For you tithe mint and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law; justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the other.'

Now, as to my opinion on this matter, and it is my humble opinion since I am not infallible at all, I would say the following;

1. God hates divorce. It is never what God wants us to do.
2. People sin, including Christians.  They make foolish choices and poor decisions.
3. All divorces are not equal.  They are never God's purpose for our lives, but sometimes one of the parties is truly a victim. 
4. It is not in accord with God's justice that the victim of an injustice should bear the consequences for the rest of his/her life.
5. The sin of illegitimate divorce is like any other sin in that it can be forgiven upon true repentance and confession.
6. In a church, issues of divorce and remarriage should be dealt with on a case by case basis after the parties discuss it with the elders. The elders must then apply the Biblical principles to the individual case. This, I believe, is what is done in most Evangelical churches today. 

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Thomas Maddux

[Uncle Buck]

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to write this...very helpful.
Dr. Magee and 'through the bible' discussed divorce this morning and he'll continue tomarrow.

Buck

[thomasson]

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to write this...very helpful.
Dr. Magee and 'through the bible' discussed divorce this morning and he'll continue tomarrow.

Buck

(Thomasson, I added [ / quote  ] after the actual quote in order to separate your post from his. When you do this, don't put spaces inside the brackets.  Tom Maddux, moderator )

Okay I am probably doing this wrong so you can help me.  First I don't know how to respond to a quote without my response being in the same box as the quote.  Second,  I am going to listen to that program thank you for posting it.  Divorce and remarriage is something that I did a study on because it is the reason I was ask not to partake of the Lord's Supper.  I met my husband in 2000 and we started dating.  When I went to the leadership they told me if I continued to see him I could not partake of the Lord's Supper because he was divorced.  We remained friends and I prayed for God's direction and researched divorce and remarriage.  I saw most of what Tom posted.   In January of 2003 as I continued to pray for direction.  The assembly went through their thing.  And that was the answer for men.  That the direction I had received was wrong, the brothers were fallible, and they had called it wrong on this and a number of other issues.   Not going into to much detail about my husband's divorce, suffice it to say he was not saved when he got divorced and there was infidelity on the part of his wife.  So I agree that the main issue is these things should be looked at on a case by case basis.  And I don't say that about most things because I don't believe in relativism.

[vernecarty]

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to write this...very helpful.
Dr. Magee and 'through the bible' discussed divorce this morning and he'll continue tomarrow.

Buck

Dr J. Vernon McGee of Through the Bible is one of my favorite Bible teachers.
It is truly remarkable how God continues to use his ministry so many years after his going to be with the Lord. I have the entire five years of his teaching through the Bible which I taped from Moody Radio while at work during the eighties. I would use a simple timer to turn the radio and tape recorder on at the time the program aired and would really look forward to listening to the broadcast after I got home. He has been a tremendous influence and it was  his minsitry that sustained me during my lean years in the assembly.
Verne

[Uncle Buck]

Dr J. Vernon McGee of Through the Bible is one of my favorite Bible teachers.
It is truly remarkable how God continues to use his ministry so many years after his going to be with the Lord. I have the entire five years of his teaching through the Bible which I taped from Moody Radio while at work during the eighties. I would use a simple timer to turn the radio and tape recorder on at the time the program aired and would really look forward to listening to the broadcast after I got home. He has been a tremendous influence and it was  his minsitry that sustained me during my lean years in the assembly.
Verne

Used to wake up every work day to Moody bible radio at 4:30 am, they had some great sermons broadcast at that time. I had many a joyful morning before my feet even touched the ground.
 How I had my head so far up my butt thinking the assembly was something special is a total mystery to me today.
Been nice in those days if there was a bunch of old timers like Dr. McGee in our mist who would have seen and called things what they really were.

[outdeep]

Used to wake up every work day to Moody bible radio at 4:30 am, they had some great sermons broadcast at that time. I had many a joyful morning before my feet even touched the ground.
 How I had my head so far up my butt thinking the assembly was something special is a total mystery to me today.
Been nice in those days if there was a bunch of old timers like Dr. McGee in our mist who would have seen and called things what they really were.

The truth of the matter is that if there were (and in some instances there were), George would have found a way to discredit the voices and we would have believed him.

George had this uncanny ability to drop names of great Christian believers of his generation to give us a sense that he was a peer with the the top names in Christian circles.  Then, at the same time, he would drop information about these leaders to give us the idea that they didn't quite measured up.

Now we are so far from divorce and remarriage I think I have probably lost my way to the digression thread .

[vernecarty]

Been nice in those days if there was a bunch of old timers like Dr. McGee in our mist who would have seen and called things what they really were.

A great lesson from the assemblies!
If you go into a gatheing of believers and don't see a few grey heads I would want to know why.
Looking back, that particular absence was such an obvious red flag to the observant.
It is no accident that Tuscola was the first gathering to tell George to take a long walk on a short pier...one lone exception among the leaders there...
Verne

[Uncle Buck]

The truth of the matter is that if there were (and in some instances there were), George would have found a way to discredit the voices and we would have believed him.
 
George had this uncanny ability to drop names of great Christian believers of his generation to give us a sense that he was a peer with the the top names in Christian circles.  Then, at the same time, he would drop information about these leaders to give us the idea that they didn't quite measured up.

Now we are so far from divorce and remarriage I think I have probably lost my way to the digression thread .

Hi Dave

You are right Dave and it really does no good thinking...coulda, woulda . shoulda this or that.
 It is what it is, but life is sure better now and probably like many others here, I thank God for it.
Hey by the  way, I have started to go through old threads and I really enjoyed 'Waffle House' So true and so well written.

I hope Tom Maddox shares his thoughts on Hebrews,   hope you do too.

Buck

[Uncle Buck]

A great lesson from the assemblies!
If you go into a gatheing of believers and don't see a few grey heads I would want to know why.
Looking back, that particular absence was such an obvious red flag to the observant.

Verne

  Verne
We got a Bingo!
The elderly...what a treasure, what a blessing.
I got a WWII generation friend, a decorated hero, who ran up Omaha Beach, he's an humble old school bad ass who loves Jesus. Now he's in his mid 80s, can barely walk but still checks on his elderly friends in the neighborhood. His mind is sharp and I enjoy his friendship. He's made me a better person.

Buck

[Margaret]

Verne, I want to echo Buck's "Bingo"!!!  The strength that comes with full maturity was certainly missing in almost everyone who ended up going along with GG.  Fred Boyer, the one who stood up to him in Tuscola, was about ten years older than I. But we had attended the same Christian high school, were mentored by the same wonderful teacher there, and were at Westmoreland Chapel for several years--i.e. very similar background. But I think the ten years age difference was key. During those ten years, Fred owned and managed a big grain operation in Tuscola, hiring and firing people, and discerning people. Standing up to a guy like GG was nothing new for him. But interestingly, and tragically, even though Fred was a very close friend of Marguerite Harrison, he could not persuade her to see the problems with GG, I think because of two reasons. One, she so badly wanted her deceased husband's ministry to be carried on by GG. And two, GG used some terrible, terrible psychological manipulation on her. So age wasn't everything.

[vernecarty]

Verne, I want to echo Buck's "Bingo"!!!  The strength that comes with full maturity was certainly missing in almost everyone who ended up going along with GG.  Fred Boyer, the one who stood up to him in Tuscola, was about ten years older than I. But we had attended the same Christian high school, were mentored by the same wonderful teacher there, and were at Westmoreland Chapel for several years--i.e. very similar background. But I think the ten years age difference was key. During those ten years, Fred owned and managed a big grain operation in Tuscola, hiring and firing people, and discerning people. Standing up to a guy like GG was nothing new for him. But interestingly, and tragically, even though Fred was a very close friend of Marguerite Harrison, he could not persuade her to see the problems with GG, I think because of two reasons. One, she so badly wanted her deceased husband's ministry to be carried on by GG. And two, GG used some terrible, terrible psychological manipulation on her. So age wasn't everything.

The situation with Mrs. Harrison is indeed a tragedy - nothing less than the tarnishing of her husgand's legacy in my humble opinion.
No question that initially George was able to establish legitimacy through her.
I am afraid that George's manipulation extended far beyond her - long before I ever met George I had heard from countless others about what a great man of God he was...sounds familiar? The man obviously had real power and we ought not to forget that.
You are so right that age and maturity ought to make a difference, and generally does, in things both physical and spiritual.
I frequently restrain myself from some infantile indulgence by reminding myself how old I am...
Verne

[Oscar]

The situation with Mrs. Harrison is indeed a tragedy - nothing less than the tarnishing of her husgand's legacy in my humble opinion.
No question that initially George was able to establish legitimacy through her.
I am afraid that George's manipulation extended far beyond her - long before I ever met George I had heard from countless others about what a great man of God he was...sounds familiar? The man obviously had real power and we ought not to forget that.
You are so right that age and maturity ought to make a difference, and generally does, in things both physical and spiritual.
I frequently restrain myself from some infantile indulgence by reminding myself how old I am...
Verne

Verne and others,

What happened to Mrs. Harrison and others like her is the reason that I have strongly opposed the teachings that led her to allow this to happen to her.

Mrs. Harrison spent many years under the teaching of T. Austin Spark's ministry at a place known as Honor Oak in England.  Through this ministry she was taught the Deeper Life teachings that are so popular in the "New Testament Church Recovery" movement.  She imbibed Keswick Convention teachings, Watchman Nee's ideas, Jesse Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray, Madam Guyon, the "Overcomer" teachings, and and practiced the type of subjective mysticism taught by these people and groups. 

As far as I have ever heard, her husband was a godly man.  I think he is the man that led Steve Irons to Christ.  He came to the USA to "help" at Westmoreland Chapel on LA, and soon became the dominant brother in that group.  He seems to have served as their "pastor" in most ways.  When he died in the late 60's, Mrs. Harrison had a difficult time.  There were problems with the brothers who took over leadership at Westmoreland Chapel.

Then GG appeared on the scene.  He believed and taught the same things she had been hearing for many years.  He was well versed in Brethren church ideas, Deeper Life mysticism, Overcomerism and Watchman Nee's views on spirituality.  In addition, he had a dynamic and charismatic personality as well as a plan.  He knew what he wanted to do.  He wanted to build "Overcomer" assemblies and restore the "testimony to Jesus". (At least that is what he said.)  

I do not pretend to know all of her motives for linking up with George Geftakys.  But on one occassion I stood with them both and heard her tell George that the Lord himself had told her to join herself to his ministry.  We were standing in the doorway to the meeting room of the Hillcrest Park building.  She told George that the Lord had "given" her a verse. 

The verse was Psalm 31:8. "And hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy; thou hast set my feet in a large room."  (we all used the KJV)

What more could anyone need?  Here was a way to continue her husband's ministry along the same lines as he had worked, to be involved in something forward looking, dynamic, and growing, and now God Himself had sent her a personal message confirming it!  She was hooked. 

What it cost her was several years of mental turmoil and depression, and finally a nervous breakdown.   She was used as long as her husband's reputation and contacts were useful to George Geftakys, and then tossed aside like a broken pot.  

But it did not start with GG.  She had been drinking at the polluted fountain of subjectivism and mysticism for many, many years.  Personally, I don't care for that brew.  I have tasted it myself.  Can't say I was impressed with the results. 

Many on this BB have responded to my rejection of these teachings angrily.  It as if I were taking  something valuable from them.  I am well aware that I am denying a fundamental tenet of many folk's beliefs and practices.  Nevertheless I believe that these are false and harmful teachings, so I will continue to oppose them.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux