Divorce discussion

[al Hartman]

But I'm one of those small minds that believes He does...

The wonderful thing about small minds is that they don't require big heads... 

al

[vernecarty]

I personally found that it is a very rare occurance that I go into a day and God says to me, "go to such and such a place and do this" or "quit your job and move here"

This entire debate I find so amusing.
I like Dave's observation as it displays some humility.
He states that he personally has found it rare.
Frankly, so have I.
However, just because that has been our experience, gives no warrant whatsoever for pontification regarding the experience of others.
There is nothing wrong with being skecptical; in fact it is downright healthy for us former assemblyites.
Trying to promulgate some inflexible doctrine about how God may or may not speak to someone flies in the face of both the Biblical record, the experience of untold numbers of saints, and thousands of muslim people who come to Christ every year.
How many of you have read the life of George Mueller?
The position some folk take on this would make that man a patent liar...
Oh but you will say - He is the exception!

i would then retort- Does that not prove the rule?!
Verne
p.s. Our perspective on the ways in which God typically works is also very much a matter of  a Western (particularly American) mindset. Most folk who seem to think that God's working in a miraculous way frequently is somehow uncommon or unScriptural have simply not spent much time in the company of missionaries.
Many of these missionaries are astonished at our spiritual dulness, complacency and mechanistic approach to life in the prosperous West. These folk seem to expect miracles from God. For them it is often a matter of life and death.
I guess we don't since we are rich...and have need of nothing...
Verne

[moonflower2]

This entire debate I find so amusing.
I like Dave's observation as it displays some humility.
He states that he personally has found it rare.
Frankly, so have I.
However, just because that has been our experience, gives no warrant whatsoever for pontification regarding the experience of others.
There is nothing wrong with being skecptical; in fact it is downright healthy for us former assemblyites.
Trying to promulgate some inflexible doctrine about how God may or may not speak to someone flies in the face of both the Biblical record, the experience of untold numbers of saints, and thousands of muslim people who come to Christ every year.
How many of you have read the life of George Mueller?
The position some folk take on this would make that man a patent liar...
Oh but you will say - He is the exception!

i would then retort- Does that not prove the rule?!
Verne
p.s. Our perspective on the ways in which God typically works is also very much a matter of  a Western (particularly American) mindset. Most folk who seem to think that God's working in a miraculous way frequently is somehow uncommon or unScriptural have simply not spent much time in the company of missionaries.
Many of these missionaries are astonished at our spiritual dulness, complacency and mechanistic approach to life in the prosperous West. These folk seem to expect miracles from God. For them it is often a matter of life and death.
I guess we don't since we are rich...and have need of nothing...
Verne

Verne, it's not going to be good here when you are gone.

[bystander]

As for this woman, I think you ought to say something Dave; you are a reasonable man. It depends on the prayer meeting or small group, I suppose, but if that lady had said those things in ours--because we all know each other well--someone would have challenged the veracity of what she was saying, cautioned her.

While I have not been following the discussion much, at risk of tangentializing the thread I would like to make a point regarding the above quote.

Reasonable people don't usually speak up in situations like this.  Reasonable people usually listen quietly and then talk about how "off," the person was later, when the poor person isn't present.  This allows a person such as this to habitually act this way in  prayer meetings, making everyone uncomfortable, and possibly impressing a few weaker and untaught people who may be present to imitate their "faith."

This same person, at a women's conference, can really break loose and often creates a genuine scene.

Again, a reasonable person doesn't get involved, and lets this sort of thing go on, to the detriment of the poor unguided soul who really believes they are hearing from God, and have been placed as a prophetess in the church.  Almost every church, while nearly filled with reasonable people,  has a few of these prophets, but it is rare for a church to have any unreasonable people, who would actually speak up and say something.

Usually, the Pastor is the only person with the gumption to publicly challenge a person like this.  If you have a pastor like that, you should thank God, because it's a rare thing to have an great pastor.  Too many of them are reasonable today....

From what I have been able to gather, George Geftakys surrounded himself with reasonable men, who knew something was wrong, but didn't follow up on that knowledge with a public rebuke until things got genuinely out of hand.  Even then, they needed a few unreasonable people to prod them into action, as the years of reasonableness left them somewhat incapable of a proper response to the false teaching of the immoral man in their midst.

It's uncomfortble telling a person like Dave's prayer group friend that they are in error...reasonable people don't do it.

I mean no disrespect to Jem for suggesting it, on the contrary, I agree with her.  It sounds like her group has a few unreasonable people in it, who would be willing to bear some pain and discomfort for the sake of their sister in Christ.  I think I would like her prayer group quite a bit.

bystander

[al Hartman]

From what I have been able to gather, George Geftakys surrounded himself with reasonable men, who knew something was wrong, but didn't follow up on that knowledge with a public rebuke until things got genuinely out of hand.  Even then, they needed a few unreasonable people to prod them into action, as the years of reasonableness left them somewhat incapable of a proper response to the false teaching of the immoral man in their midst.

I can speak only for myself: In my case it was the years of protecting my own hindquarters that had left me incapable of a proper recognition of the false teaching and of the immorality of the man...  It was the grace of God that I was "let go" from the assy, else I might still be there.  After all these years, I still frequently realize for the first time some incident wherein gg's actions or words flew in the face God's grace or even of human decency, and I marvel that I was so willingly blind to it at the time.

al

P.S.-- my isolating bystander's quote & responding to only that part of his post-- now that is tangentializing!

[vernecarty]

I can speak only for myself: In my case it was the years of protecting my own hindquarters that had left me incapable of a proper recognition of the false teaching and of the immorality of the man...  It was the grace of God that I was "let go" from the assy, else I might still be there.  After all these years, I still frequently realize for the first time some incident wherein gg's actions or words flew in the face God's grace or even of human decency, and I marvel that I was so willingly blind to it at the time.

al

P.S.-- my isolating bystander's quote & responding to only that part of his post-- now that is tangentializing!

Self-preservation is quite natural to the human condition Al, and entirely understandable.
Your experience and that of the other men charged with leadership illustrates what is one of the important lessons from the assembly, and that is that true spiritual leadership is ultimately God's purview, not man's.
Every tree that God has not planted will surely be uprooted.
Ephesians tells us that God gives to the church, literally, gifted men.
One of the things that mark a true shepherd is that God has supernaturally enabled him to overcome the natural tendency toward self-preservation; he is made willling to lay down his life for the sheep...
It is entirely possible that your assembly experience was all part of God's preparation for effective service...and all in His time my friend...

After all these years, I still frequently realize for the first time some incident wherein gg's actions or words flew in the face God's grace or even of human decency, and I marvel that I was so willingly blind to it at the time.

To me this is indeed the critical issue. When we spend so much time and energy trying to make the case that the problem with George and the assemblies was somehow one of of mere theology (and it is good to understand the wrong things taught), and overlook the fact the man routinely behaved like a beast toward others, we fall prey to the gnat and camel syndrome.
It matters little, in hindsight, whether George's doctrine was as straight as an arrow.
His conduct is what should have long ago  propelled others around him to action.

Ironically, I dare say that even if his thinking and teaching were more patently perverse, the assemblies would still be alive and well today had the man been more decent.
After all, they meekly accepted his seventh day creation contention did they not?
Verne

[M2]

While I have not been following the discussion much, at risk of tangentializing the thread I would like to make a point regarding the above quote.

Reasonable people don't usually speak up in situations like this.  Reasonable people usually listen quietly and then talk about how "off," the person was later, when the poor person isn't present.  This allows a person such as this to habitually act this way in  prayer meetings, making everyone uncomfortable, and possibly impressing a few weaker and untaught people who may be present to imitate their "faith."

This same person, at a women's conference, can really break loose and often creates a genuine scene.

Again, a reasonable person doesn't get involved, and lets this sort of thing go on, to the detriment of the poor unguided soul who really believes they are hearing from God, and have been placed as a prophetess in the church.  Almost every church, while nearly filled with reasonable people,  has a few of these prophets, but it is rare for a church to have any unreasonable people, who would actually speak up and say something.

Usually, the Pastor is the only person with the gumption to publicly challenge a person like this.  If you have a pastor like that, you should thank God, because it's a rare thing to have an great pastor.  Too many of them are reasonable today....

From what I have been able to gather, George Geftakys surrounded himself with reasonable men, who knew something was wrong, but didn't follow up on that knowledge with a public rebuke until things got genuinely out of hand.  Even then, they needed a few unreasonable people to prod them into action, as the years of reasonableness left them somewhat incapable of a proper response to the false teaching of the immoral man in their midst.

It's uncomfortble telling a person like Dave's prayer group friend that they are in error...reasonable people don't do it.

I mean no disrespect to Jem for suggesting it, on the contrary, I agree with her.  It sounds like her group has a few unreasonable people in it, who would be willing to bear some pain and discomfort for the sake of their sister in Christ.  I think I would like her prayer group quite a bit.

bystander

Straightforward yet diplomatic and insightful.

Self-preservation is quite natural to the human condition Al, and entirely understandable.
Your experience and that of the other men charged with leadership illustrates what is one of the important lessons from the assembly, and that is that true spiritual leadership is ultimately God's purview, not man's.
Every tree that God has not planted will surely be uprooted.
Ephesians tells us that God gives to the church, literally, gifted men.
One of the things that mark a true shepherd is that God has supernaturally enabled him to overcome the natural tendency toward self-preservation; he is made willling to lay down his life for the sheep...
It is entirely possible that your assembly experience was all part of God's preparation for effective service...and all in His time my friend...


To me this is indeed the critical issue. When we spend so much time and energy trying to make the case that the problem with George and the assemblies was somehow one of of mere theology (and it is good to understand the wrong things taught), and overlook the fact the man routinely behaved like a beast toward others, we fall prey to the gnat and camel syndrome.
It matters little, in hindsight, whether George's doctrine was as straight as an arrow.
His conduct is what should have long ago  propelled others around him to action.

Ironically, I dare say that even if his thinking and teaching were more patently perverse, the assemblies would still be alive and well today had the man been more decent.
After all, they meekly accepted his seventh day creation contention did they not?
Verne

Verne, I'm interested.  Which Scriptures state that a true shepherd is supernaturally enabled?

Marcia

P.S. Looks like we've divorced ourselves from the divorce discussion on this thread eh??
MM

[Jem]

Bystander, you would enjoy our small group. They know what true accountability is. They do not talk of minute rules while there is an elephant standing in the room. We have made ourselves accoutable to this group and I think you would also enjoy the looks on their faces when we describe some things that went on in the assembly. The look is a combination of shock that it happened and surprise that we apparently "reasonable" people let it happen. One gentleman is a former director of World Vision; he has seen it all in 110 countries. He is a very gracious man, but he does not dither in speaking truth.

[vernecarty]

Straightforward yet diplomatic and insightful.

Verne, I'm interested.  Which Scriptures state that a true shepherd is supernaturally enabled?

Marcia

P.S. Looks like we've divorced ourselves from the divorce discussion on this thread eh??
MM

It would take quite a bit of time to list them all Marcia.
All of what the Christian does according to the will fo God must be done via the enabling of the Holy Spirit.
The disicples behaved quite differently before and after pentecost.
In that sense, godly, effective and sacrificial leadership is certainly supernatural. I know that you know your Bible well enough to locate for yourself the many places that this is taught. 
Verne

[outdeep]

While I have not been following the discussion much, at risk of tangentializing the thread I would like to make a point regarding the above quote.

Reasonable people don't usually speak up in situations like this.  Reasonable people usually listen quietly and then talk about how "off," the person was later, when the poor person isn't present.  This allows a person such as this to habitually act this way in  prayer meetings, making everyone uncomfortable, and possibly impressing a few weaker and untaught people who may be present to imitate their "faith."

This same person, at a women's conference, can really break loose and often creates a genuine scene.

Again, a reasonable person doesn't get involved, and lets this sort of thing go on, to the detriment of the poor unguided soul who really believes they are hearing from God, and have been placed as a prophetess in the church.  Almost every church, while nearly filled with reasonable people,  has a few of these prophets, but it is rare for a church to have any unreasonable people, who would actually speak up and say something.

Usually, the Pastor is the only person with the gumption to publicly challenge a person like this.  If you have a pastor like that, you should thank God, because it's a rare thing to have an great pastor.  Too many of them are reasonable today....

From what I have been able to gather, George Geftakys surrounded himself with reasonable men, who knew something was wrong, but didn't follow up on that knowledge with a public rebuke until things got genuinely out of hand.  Even then, they needed a few unreasonable people to prod them into action, as the years of reasonableness left them somewhat incapable of a proper response to the false teaching of the immoral man in their midst.

It's uncomfortble telling a person like Dave's prayer group friend that they are in error...reasonable people don't do it.

I mean no disrespect to Jem for suggesting it, on the contrary, I agree with her.  It sounds like her group has a few unreasonable people in it, who would be willing to bear some pain and discomfort for the sake of their sister in Christ.  I think I would like her prayer group quite a bit.

bystander

I do agree with you and Marcia.  Folks who go too far in this kind of teaching (whether we label it Higher Life teaching or not) should be challenged for their own sake.  In other words, we should applaud folks like Tom who has the courage to correct even if it goes against the popular concensus.

I am thinking through what this should look like in my particular situation.

Lord bless,

-Dave

[M2]

I do agree with you and Marcia.  Folks who go too far in this kind of teaching (whether we label it Higher Life teaching or not) should be challenged for their own sake.  In other words, we should applaud folks like Tom who has the courage to correct even if it goes against the popular concensus.

I am thinking through what this should look like in my particular situation.

Lord bless,

-Dave

Which one is it?  Do you absolutely disagree with me, or do you agree with me re. Tom?

For the record, I do not agree with you that this applies to what Tom is doing on this BB.

Marcia

[outdeep]

Very smooth Dave.  Nice twist there.

Which one is it?  Do you absolutely disagree with me, or do you agree with me re. Tom?

For the record, I do not agree with you that this applies to what Tom is doing on this BB.

Marcia

Marcia,

Yeah.  I couldn't resist.  We'll just leave it rest at that:  You and I disagree as to how to look at Tom's posts.  I'm sure there are many things we do agree on and we can build on that in the future.

Lord bless,

-Dave

[bystander]

Bystander, you would enjoy our small group......  The look is a combination of shock that it happened and surprise that we apparently "reasonable" people let it happen.

I confess to being one of the people who sits with a blank stare, mouth agape, while listening to people tell their stories.  For quite a while, I couldn't understand how an educated, intelligent person failed to grasp the spiritual and moral incongruence of life in the Assembly.  When I first learned about the idea of "outreaches," which for many years was the only thing I knew about the group,  I remember scratching my head trying to understand how these people thought that confronting someone reading a book, alone, on their lunch hour was a good way to evangelize!

I was such a person, and after shaking off the rude interuption, became quite intrigued by the group.  (I was never tempted to join them!)  It wan't until years later that I became personally  involved with ex-members, after the local group dissolved.

Prior to some of the hitherto quiet, reasonable members spoke up, the group seemed to be going on as usual.  A few hard questions and one or two principled moral stands sent the whole edifice tumbling like a house of cards.

Confrontation and rebuke is a small facet of Christian fellowship, and when needed, it is best done in love.  However, I would rather have needed rebuke done in a clumsy insensitive manner, than to not have it at all.

Dave, you should pray about helping your "church lady," and how you should go about doing it.  More often than not, people such as this eat nice, loving correction for lunch, followed by a dessert consisting of the sharing of a half-dozen Old Testament passages.  If people like this have too much presence in a small group, it serves to keep the reasonable people out.  Then, the person must go to another group and share their insight, and the cycle repeats itself.

Lord bless