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David Mauldin
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« on: January 15, 2006, 03:06:08 am »

After I left the Assembly I found that I could no longer maintain my faith in Christianity. (By faith I mean in a standard conservative view of the Biblle) I am courious if anyone out there would like to share your current state of faith.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2006, 03:08:38 am by David Mauldin » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2006, 05:09:11 am »


Quote

Question: Do you still consider yourself a believer in Christianity? 


Dave,

Your question is phrased in the terms of an unbeliever. 

Christians believe in the person and lordship of Jesus Christ, not in "Christianity."  I don't point this out to nit-pick, but the distinction is worth noting.

Christianity truly defined is belief in Christ.  Belief in Christianity would be belief in a belief...

al
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Mark C.
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2006, 07:12:03 am »

This is a good question Dave!

  Al:  I think that Dave defined his terms, when referring to "Christianity", by explaining that he now rejects "a standard conservative view of the Bible."  He rejects the view that the Bible contains the absolute revealed truth re. God.

  David M.: Before others start to answer your question maybe you could explain to us what led to your change of mind from the "conservative" belief you had and what you now believe---- or if you now have any belief in God at all, etc.?

   What I'm trying to get at is: are you an atheist, agnostic, or what (if any) are now your spiritual beliefs?  How did you originally "accept Christ," and can you isolate that experience from your involvement in the Assembly?

   I know of one former member who considered loyal Assembly involvement as the sum and subtance of his "life in Christ" and when he discovered that the Assembly was deeply flawed he could not separate his personal faith in God from his past bad experiences with the group.  His final decision was that there could be no God and he became an atheist.  I would submit that he never truly had a personal faith in God, but related only to God on the basis of religious affiliation.

    It has been my experience, in talking with many former members of cults/abusive churches, that those that came to their groups with a salvation experience, and some solid evangelical teaching, have fared much better in maintaing a strong faith in the Bible after leaving their respective groups, than those that have not.

                                    I believe that God still will bless,   Mark C. 

 
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Eulaha L. Long
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 09:24:02 am »

I consider myself a Christian, in the sense that I believe in Christ the Lord.  I do not, however, go to church or read the Bible regularly.  I believe that my relationship with the Lord is pretty tight.  I talk to him regularly.  I guess what I'm saying is that my concept of Christianity is sort of "out of the box". 
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Mark C.
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2006, 09:58:00 pm »

Hi Eulaha!

  Thanks so much for your honest response to David M.'s question.  I think I understand your present views of what it means to have a relationship with the Lord as you described it: "out of the box."

   When I was in the Assembly I certainly felt like I was in a box so when I left the group I refused to allow anyone to try and put up walls around me again! 

   People who have never been in a cult/abusive church often question those who stayed in these groups (some for many years) something like this: "you were not a physical prisoner of the group; why didn't you just leave as soon as you realized something was wrong?"

  The walls of that box are made up of:

1.) Guilt:
    A.) You are warned that fidelity to the group equals "being right with God."
          To leave the group is to leave God.
     B.) You are told that God accepts you based on your performance.  This includes meeting attendance, bible reading, prayer, witnessing, etc.

     2.) Feeling of belonging.
            This is the commitment to "friends" and our hunger to be accepted and wanted by others.  That in the Assembly these emotions were dysfunctional is clearly understood, but to those held by these walls they are nonetheless very real. 

   It is the "B" part of guilt that I struggle with still to this day.  I understand in my thinking that true relationship with God is "out of the box," in that it has everything to do with a gift based relationship with God vs. an earned one, but emotionally I still feel insecure without some of those walls around me to give me the assurance that I am okay with God! Cry

  When I avoid reading the bible and going to church it is because these in the past were the means of holding me in bondage for decades.  Yes, I know that this was never God's intention in the church or his word---- but how to overcome the overwhelming reluctance?

1.) It's okay to just decide to "live outside of the box", in the sense that God understands former Assembly members are a bit burned out on "climbing heavenly ladders!"  Consider it "time apart with the Lord" away from any of what might trigger memories from the past.  That may even mean not reading the BB for a period of time--- if that gets you too emotional.

2.) I think it's a good idea to have a friend that you can talk to who understands what you've been through, and is possibly struggling with similar things, to just sit down and talk.  This will go a long way to answering the "#2 point re. the emotional need for acceptance.
   ( When I was in the Assembly I knew some people for decades, but we were never able to have any kind of discussion that even approached a friendship.  Indeed, we were warned against this kind of stuff.)
 
   Now, some would insist that the two above points are not "spiritual," but humanistic/psychological answers that avoid the only true biblical solutions of church attendance and bible reading as the means to spiritual relationship with God.  I would contend that there can be no true profit from church and bible reading as long as I have not resolved the issue of learning to live my life on the basis of freedom in grace---i.e., "outside the box" of my former days in Phariseeism.

  I have discovered as I boldly resist living by guilt over my less than perfect performance, and instead opt to trust in the God who takes away my guilt and sin, that what insues is a marked change of heart in how I live my life.

  People notice a change in my behavior: from the depressed self preoccupied person I was, to a more content and happy individual who represents a Christian relationship that is much more attractive to others than the former dark cloud attitude I had.

  I also have a change of heart, in that I care more about people, not just defending/arguing my point of view---- I truly desire to "build up" others in their faith.

   I think by this "out of the box" way of thinking about our relationship with the Lord eventually we will come back to bible reading and church life, but we will look at both in a completely different way as a result of changing the context for how I relate to God.  Now the bible and church are not the walls of our imprisonment, but helpers in our joy and conduits for God's loving assurances! Smiley

  We will see things that remind us of the Assembly in evangelical churches; there will be those trying to use guilt to get us to "serve the Lord," etc., but from our new "out of the box" understanding these things will not have the power over us they once did and we will learn one of the most blessed phrases for a recovering Assemblyite to utter: "no thanks, but thanks for asking."

                                              Boy, God sure wants to bless us.  Mark C.
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outdeep
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 05:04:38 pm »

After I left the Assembly I found that I could no longer maintain my faith in Christianity. (By faith I mean in a standard conservative view of the Biblle) I am courious if anyone out there would like to share your current state of faith.
Recently, I listened to a series by Bart Ehrman from UNC Chapel Hill on the New Testament.  I wanted to understand better the securlar view of the Bible.  He went through what might be considered the non-conservative view of the Bible where it is popular to try and separate the Jesus of history from the Jesus of faith.  Most secular scholars tend to run the Bible through the standards of history concluding for various reasons what is and isn't true about Jesus, the authorship of Paul, etc.  Too much to go into here.

His arguments were comelling but as I dug deeper into this type of scholarship, it seemed even more speculative than assuming the Bible was historical.

Ann Rice, the best-selling novelist about vampires, recently returned to her Catholisim and wrote (so far in my opinion) a good novel called Christ the Lord.  In the afterward, she recounts her journey of going through various scholarship and being frustrated at the inane and conflicting conclusions they came up with.  She was greatly helped by N.T. Wright who is not exactly an evangelical (most do not like his New Perspectives on Paul) but writes compellingly of the centrality of the resurrection and the authorship of Paul.

So, I still lean towards "conservative camp" if one feels they have to apply such labels.  Do I have questions such as how literally the "lake of fire" should be taken in apocolyptic literature?  Of course.  I feel the Bible is God's word but there is much more I don't understand now than when I was in the Assembly.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 07:08:54 pm by Dave Sable » Logged
David Mauldin
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 09:00:28 pm »

Last Friday I was involved in a lively conversation about the doctrine of "bodily ressurection" (This was started by another teacher in our breakroom) After pointing out the similarities to  ancient Egyptian religion and the absurdity of "not donating organs/not having your body cremated" a Christian teacher piped in "I don't believe in any of that stuff," "I just believe in a relationship with God." Thus my problem When I posed the question, "...in Christianity"  Oh wait this may lead someone to think by Christianity I mean religion not relationship!  O.K. here it comes, "Dave" "What you experienced wasn't genuine Christianity"  "Let me tell you about true relationship with Christ!" Come on guys, just let people take this annonymous poll!  You don't have feel threatend or like you need to "fix" me.  Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 09:07:11 pm by David Mauldin » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 10:03:05 pm »

Last Friday I was involved in a lively conversation about the doctrine of "bodily ressurection" (This was started by another teacher in our breakroom) After pointing out the similarities to  ancient Egyptian religion and the absurdity of "not donating organs/not having your body cremated" a Christian teacher piped in "I don't believe in any of that stuff," "I just believe in a relationship with God." Thus my problem When I posed the question, "...in Christianity"  Oh wait this may lead someone to think by Christianity I mean religion not relationship!  O.K. here it comes, "Dave" "What you experienced wasn't genuine Christianity"  "Let me tell you about true relationship with Christ!" Come on guys, just let people take this annonymous poll!  You don't have feel threatend or like you need to "fix" me.  Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue
As a side note, our pastor was preaching on 1 Corinthians 15 yesterday.  He pointed out that the question "How are the dead raised" was a sarcastic one as if to say "oh yeah?  How is the Lord going to put a decaying body back together?"

The point of misunderstanding with the Corinithians is that they assumed resurrection meant supernaturally putting the old body back together which is the same misunderstanding that folks who don't believe in cremation or donating body organs have.  Rather the truth of the resurrection is that God gives us a new body.  Therefore, while we are not to abuse our bodies, there is nothing wrong for the Christian to be cremated or donate his/her organs.

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moonflower2
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 11:50:08 pm »

As a side note, our pastor was preaching on 1 Corinthians 15 yesterday.  He pointed out that the question "How are the dead raised" was a sarcastic one as if to say "oh yeah?  How is the Lord going to put a decaying body back together?"

The point of misunderstanding with the Corinithians is that they assumed resurrection meant supernaturally putting the old body back together which is the same misunderstanding that folks who don't believe in cremation or donating body organs have.  Rather the truth of the resurrection is that God gives us a new body.  Therefore, while we are not to abuse our bodies, there is nothing wrong for the Christian to be cremated or donate his/her organs.

IMO, I'd think twice about burning an old temple of God, even if it was decaying.

It's been documented that people who have had organ transplants will take on personalities of the previous owners of the body parts. It seems the more of the previous owner's body you have, the more likely this is to happen. What is going on here??? 

Until I heard these people speak, I thought transplants would be a fine thing to do. I have 2 cousins with kidney transplants.

There is also something that I find interesting. Your body will reject anyone else's body part as a foreign invader. This in itself says something.

A cousin I'm close to said that she is on 3 different anti-rejection medications. Her immune system doesn't exist. What a skewed picture.

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soul dreamer
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2006, 01:26:12 am »

A man was buried in a shallow grave, and his body decomposed into the surrounding soil.  Some flowers absorbed some of the atoms that once were part of the dead man’s brain.  A cow ate the flowers and produced milk which a toddler later drank.  The atoms that once formed part of the dead man’s brain became assimilated into the brain of the toddler.  In the resurrection, whose brain gets those atoms?  Is someone left with a deficient brain?

If the above is how we view the resurrection, then I believe the Lord Jesus would say to us, “You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29).

I agree with Dave that believers receive a new body made of new atoms… believers receive new bodies that shall be as the glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil. 3:21): bodies that shall never tire, become sick, or grow old.

It is true though that some of the atoms in our present bodies actually have been part of the bodies of past humans, plants, and animals. Oxygen molecules in the room you are in are moving over 1,000 mph; some of the ones you just exhaled are now down the street and in the lungs of someone else.

Regarding transplants, the Lord Jesus gave his blood a ransom for many; he tasted death for everyone.  If I die and my heart goes to a prostitute or my liver to an alcoholic, well, my Savior has already given far more for them to live.

I also have told my wife that if I die I want to be cremated because that is the least expensive form of legal “burial.”   I want the limited funds in my family to support the needs of the living.

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Oscar
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2006, 03:12:42 am »

Moon,

You said:
Quote

It's been documented that people who have had organ transplants will take on personalities of the previous owners of the body parts. It seems the more of the previous owner's body you have, the more likely this is to happen. What is going on here??? 

I suspect that you might want to do a little checking on the "documentation" of these claims before fully accepting them.  Did these folks cite peer-reviewed science or medical publications in evidence of their claims?  My guess would be no.  If I am wrong....enlighten me.

If this could be shown to be true, it would support Thomas Aquinas' teaching on inherent natures of entities.  Interesting.

Think about it though.  If a man receives a woman's heart, would he develop tendencies to crossdress?  Add a kidney and he turns into a homosexual?  Doesn't seem very likely to me.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 03:15:51 am by Tom Maddux » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 04:20:32 am »




Oxygen molecules in the room you are in are moving over 1,000 mph


Rick, every room in my house is posted "SPEED LIMIT 500MPH."  We allow a margin of 50MPH under normal conditions, but molecules traveling in excess of 550MPH are pulled over and inhaled.  You just gotta draw the line somewhere...

al Wink
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 04:57:08 am »

There is a documented case of a cat being skin-grafted with the flesh of a Pekingnese
and after coming home from the operation the cat attacked the Mailman and ate all of
the Chinese food off of the plates on the table. Now, if a skin transplant can result in
this behavior, imagine what other organ transplants might lead to.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 05:02:04 am by Joe Sperling » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 10:15:55 am »



Joe, I heard of a small pentecostal church that received a donor organ from a cathedral. 
The choir has been confused ever since... Cheesy Shocked
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moonflower2
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2006, 11:09:21 am »


Regarding transplants, the Lord Jesus gave his blood a ransom for many;
That's right: His blood for life and His body in death. he did not give his body to be transplanted into anyone elses. Blood is different from body parts. Please.  Roll Eyes
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he tasted death for everyone. 
and??
 
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