How Do These People Live With Themselves?

[soul dreamer]

Dave,

I think Fred is asking you to pray with someone who has prophetic abilities.  In other words, Fred is asking, "When you pray to the Lord asking about what parts of Tom P.'s story may be embellished, what does the Lord reveal to you by the Spirit of truth and revelation [similar to Daniel and his friends when they inquired into the king's dream]?"

Rick

[Joe Sperling]

Dear Friends---

I just wanted to let you know that there were two gentlemen at my door a moment ago. I remembered what the Reverend Kelly said below:  "What does the Lord say about this when you pray"? so I asked
these two gentlemen to pray with me about Mr. Papania. I got this strangely warm feeling in my chest,
just as these two men at the door said I would after I read the book they were passing out. They said this warm feeling would be a confirmation of the truth of the book, so I figure that same warm feeling probably confirms the truth about other things too. It really must be the Lord speaking to me. (I haven't had a chance to read it yet, though apparently an angel helped a man find some golden plates used to write it).

After experiencing this warm feeling in my chest I just know that Mr. Papania must be for real. I think these two gentlemen were prophets. I'm going to have to take the time to read the Book and the literature they gave me. They were such nice fellows, dressed nicely too, with white shirts and ties, and they each wore name tags also. I thought that was so courteous. So, I just have to say that this Tom Papania must be a sincere fellow, because my prayers led me to feel that this must be the right thing, and if it feels right it must be from the Lord.

God bless,   Reverend Burt O'Leary

[outdeep]

OK.  I think I've got things wrapped up here.

Here is a response from Mr. Papania concerning my question about there being no coorborating evidence tieing him to the Mafia:

Dave, I've waited a few days to respond to some of your questions. First of all, Kiss is a rock group that performs publicly. To compare them to the Mafia which is a secret society is outright ridiculous. Unlike American Express, Visa and Mastercard, the Mafia does not hand out membership cards. They also do not take kindly to photographs or autograph seekers. At the height of its power the Gambino family had 600 to 800 members. I challenge anyone, and I mean anyone to name them all. Only the big bosses and anyone who committed a sensational crime ever got noticed. The smaller people hardly ever get mentioned or noticed. I was one of those smaller people who kept in the background and avoided publicity. If your lack of discernment decides not to recommend me to churches in Boone, that's fine with me. I have others who do have discernment who believe in  me and will recommend me in Boone. If I may recommend something to you it would be to read your Bible more and the Internet less.

Here is my e-mail that I responded back:

Thank you, brother, for your answer to one of my questions.  Could you also answer my second and last question:  Why is there a descrepency between what you say about your Kansas imprisonment (shooting two people) and the public court records say (robbing a TV store and a car lot)? 
 
Thank you for your time and response.
 
Lord bless,
 
-Dave Sable


Here is how Mr. Papania dealt with the question:

I asked you for your phone number so I could explain it to you, but you never bothered to send it to me. You didn't confront me face to face at Hebron and now you wont give me your phone number but choose to hide behind a keyboard. When you become man enough to talk to me, I'll answer your questions. Until then, dont bother me with your insidious E mails.

[outdeep]

I figured I should send the guy a closing reply:

Mr. Papania,
 
Actually, my reluctance to give out my phone number is more of a function of my common sense, not my manhood.  When I heard you at Hebron, I was rather impressed with your story.  A small inconsistancy (which could easily have been a slip of the tongue - these things happen) and your defensiveness about your accusors led me to do a Google search.
 
I was actually surprised that some of the accusations seemed to have substance.
 
This is why I was hoping for your credibility, you could clear this matter up.  If not to me personally, perhaps on your website.  Explaining the descrepency between your claim about the Kansas arrest and the public court documentation would be a great place to start.
 
I think it would help open more doors for you to preach.
 
Thank you very much for your time,
 
-Dave Sable

[outdeep]

OK.  I guess he gets the last word.  The problem is not that his testimony and the court documents are inconsistant.  The problem is that I don't give him my phone number.  Does this "the problem is really you" behavior remind you of anyone we knew?

When my book is published you can read it and disperse any thoughts you have about my credibility and integrity and then I'll expect an apology from you. Let's see if you are as quick to apologize as you are to accuse. Why you would be afraid to give me your phone number speaks volumes about you and your inability to confront a brother in love. I will be in your area April 14th & 15th, and If you want to talk to me then, we will talk. If not, this is the last time I will be asking you to stop with your ridiculous E mails.In fact I am putting you on my Spam list and your E mails will automatically be deleted without me even seeing them.

[vernecarty]

Did someone say that this gentleman was acutally featured on focus on the family?
James Dobson is not an idiot so I am genuinely surprised at this.
It is obviously a case of somebody dismally failing to do due diligence and check out the man's background and claims.
Dave I get the sense that you are really putting the lessons learned in the assemblies to good use and kudos my friend.
That a person like this is being endorsed by any believer anywhere speaks to the level of incredible stupidity and gullibility on the part of so many of God's people in these last days. Will it never end???!!!

[outdeep]

One of the reason for his popularity is that he was featured on Dobson.  The only thing you will find on FOTF website now is that "we no longer have his tape available".  They clearly do not endorse his ministry anymore but they are responsible for his wide exposure.  I e-mailed FOTF and asked them directly about Mr. Papania's ministry and they have not replied.

One criticism I have seen about FOTF is that folks feel that since they were so instrumental in spreading Mr. Papania's popularity they should make a clear statement or apology to remove their endorsement.  I agree that they should say something.

I agree with you Verne.  I think I am less grieved about Mr. Papania's pathology than I am about the fact that he has staunch defenders in the church.  I do not believe all Charismatics are like this but there is an extreme wing of Charismatics who genuinely believe "He is preaching the gospel in the power of the Spirit and hundreds are coming to Christ and that is all that needs to be said."

[moonflower2]

Dave, you didn't grow up in the Chicago area, did you? You can't grow up in Chicago/Cicero/Lyons/Willow Springs areas in Illinois and not know why there wasn't an obvious, clear connection of Papania to the Gambino family and why he may not have been officially picked up for the shooting of two men.  Nobody knows anybody in the courtroom scene.

He answered some questions already and he offered to talk to you over the phone. Why don't you talk to him? You can always change your number if you notice anyone following you.......  

It's a miracle in itself that he got out and that the "family" didn't kill him when he did get out.

Moonflower

[outdeep]

Actually, he is from New York.

Yes, it is a miracle if that is indeed what really happened. 

The reason I don't want to talk to him on the phone is because what I learned from the Assembly.  The Assembly puts no explanations in writing because they know if they do someone now has something tangable to check out their story.  When a leading brother met with you personally, they had the upper hand - they could fast-talk you or smooth-talk you and make you the problem.  You can't call them to account because nothing is written down and no one else heard the conversation.

My argument with Mr. Papania is that these credibility issues are set out there for which he had not given an answer.  Since they are public accusations against him, for the sake of his ministry, I think he should post some explanation or coorborating evidence on his website.  Obviously, he can't "prove" everything and no one is asking him to.  But, he can certainly set forth something.  Anything?

Instead, he resorts to the Geftakian defense:
1.  See how many people are coming to Christ - that says it all.
2.  If you read your Bible more, you would have discernment and be spiritual enough to see that God is in my ministry.
3.  The real problem is that you didn't ask the question correctly.  Therefore, you are the problem.
4.  Those who accuse me are not Christians and therefore the tools of Satan.

Sorry, I remain unpersuaded.

[moonflower2]

Hi Dave,

I wasn't saying that Papania was from Chicago, I was saying that I grew up hearing and reading about the mob my entire life, (actually met Jack Cerone, and another mobster took over a couple of my Dad's business stops, and let my Dad know it was them) and although I understand where you are coming from since I too was subjected to the "you are the problem" attitude of the assembly, and though I would want to corroborate the statements made by a preacher, you questioning the lack of proof of his ties to the mob seemed rather strange. On that basis, I was assuming that you had not grown up in the Chicago area and its suburbs that were so influenced by the mob.

The only real proof of his mob ties would have been his successful demise when he left the "family". However, that didn't happen either, so on that basis, maybe we should continue to doubt his connection? I don't think so.

Time will tell with this one, since he has a book coming out. It will be trashed, validated or a combo of both.

Moonflower

[Joe Sperling]

This thread led me to some deep investigation, and I am really amazed at what I came up with about the New York mob. Did you know that...oh hold on a minute someone's at the door--I'll be right back

[moonflower2]

This thread led me to some deep investigation, and I am really amazed at what I came up with about the New York mob. Did you know that...oh hold on a minute someone's at the door--I'll be right back

Do you take paypal?

[outdeep]

Received this today:


Dear Dave:

Greetings from Focus on the Family and thank you for your e-mail to our ministry headquarters.  I consider it a privilege to reply on behalf of our staff.

We appreciate your interest in knowing why copies of the broadcast, “From Mafia to Ministry,” featuring Tom Papania, are no longer available through Focus.  As you’re aware, in the mid-1990s we aired Mr. Papania’s very gripping personal story.  However, in subsequent years, we have become increasingly concerned about reports from within the church as well as the secular media, which cast doubt on many of the statements made by Mr. Papania in the context of his Christian testimony.  It is for this reason that we no longer offer cassettes or CDs of this program, nor do we refer our constituents to his ministry.

Thanks again for writing, Dave.  We hope this brief reply has been helpful.  May the Lord bless you in the days ahead.

Darrell Green
Office of the President

[Joe Sperling]

Dave----

Thanks for posting everything you have. Though I took the liberty took joke around a bit about this,
I appreciate the investigation you have put into this subject. It seems often to be true that when
questions arise about a ministry, or the leader of the ministry, the Lord himself is pointing to something
of which to beware. Before George was exposed and excommunicated the Lord had been slowly exposing that
ministry (despite the protests) through the original Assembly website and this BB.  There are many cases where at first people decried the "investigations" going on, or the detractors pointing at the ministry and the leader/leaders, but afterwards saw that all of it was warranted.

Jim Bakker, Mike Warnke, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, George Geftakys, etc.-- all come to mind in this respect--some investigations and questioning going for longer periods of time (others immediate) before the offenders were "exposed". But every time it appears the Lord himself wanted them exposed, and raised up those to begin asking the questions, such as Brent Tr0ckman regarding the Assembly (though many others had written and spoken about it for some time---"The Noble Inquirer" etc. as examples). This is what is going on, it appears, with Mr. Papania's ministry at present. Only time will tell what the final story is, but if it follows the familiar pattern the end result most likely will not be a good one (at least for Mr. Papania that is).

--Joe

[Mark C.]

Hi Dave!

  I have been following your comments here with great interest and am in agreement with Vern's comments re. how much you learned from your time in the Assembly (re. not being silent when GG claimed he held the status of being above criticism).

  The Bible clearly teaches that those whose ministry is truly "from above" are "easy to be entreated" and are able to humbly and truthfully speak about themselves.  The worst thing we can do as believers is over look inconsistencies in what a fellow Christian says or does even though we do so with the intention of not wanting to be "judgmental."

  I was so happy that FOTF wrote you back and seemed to be upfront with their response. 

  Of course, there is a point where we can become nit-picky about one anothers faults, but in the case of someone like this man and his ministry I think you have asked all the right questions that needed to be asked.  Kudos to you for having the nerve and caring to do so!

                                                             God Bless,  Mark C.