Spiritual Philosophy of Moral Foreign Policy

[Chuck Miller]

We Christians seem to have totally lost sight of the fact that our citizenship is in heaven (Phil 3:20-21)and that we are merely living as aliens (Hebrews 11:13) in whatever country in which we happen to reside on this earth.  Contrary to what we may have been taught in school, the United States  was founded upon a false premise by well-meaning, but misguided men who decided to rebel  against England and King George and form what they described as a “more perfect union”  - an act of civil disobedience that is expressly forbidden in the scriptures (Romans 13:1-2).  And, yes, I’ve heard the arguments by those who would justify rebellion against “unjust” governments, as if Paul was writing under some delusion that he expected that countries were being governed by men who were going to adhere to godly principles.  Were we to assume that he would advocate rebellion against tyrannical  governments, would he not have started with Rome?

But, let’s assume that the founding fathers had erroneously presumed that Paul was allowing latitude whereby they might set aside his exhortation and rebel against the unreasonable edicts of King George.  By what manner of reasoning did they decide that the Lord would sanction the establishment of a new nation; sectarian or Christian.  And how were they to justify the forceful confiscation of land from the natives who inhabited it?  To His chosen people, Israel, alone did God bequeath a parcel of land for their possession.  And are we to suppose that the Father is pleased with this nation that would advocate the partitioning of that land and relinquishing ownership to hostile unbelievers? 

So, before we attempt  to justify taking up the sword in order to form some sort of pseudo-democratic nation abroad, it would be well to advocate repentance of this nation that has turned away from God and His Son, Christ Jesus our Lord.

Chuck Miller

[outdeep]

I see your basic point that the US should not stand for its national interests in the Middle East because our ancestors screwed over the Indians 150 years ago. 

However, it sounds to me alot like the response of our teenagers when we say, "You should not be drinking with your friends" and they reply, "Yeah?  Well, you smoked when you were a child!"  There may be an issue of national hypocrisy, but it doesn't make the latter issue not an issue.

I'm not sure slapping down the pious "we're not of this world" argument means we should not have opinions about what course of action is in the best interest of our nation.  To what extent we involve ourselves (cultural warrior vs. separatist) is a matter of personal conscience but that really isn't the question that is being discussed here.

[Oscar]

Chuck,

"We Christians"?  Seems to me that most Christians do not see the fact that our citizenship is in heaven as prohibiting acknowledging our earthly citizenship.

Seems to me that anyone who really believes as you seem to should apply for resident alien status.  After all, if you are not a citizen of the USA you cannot vote or hold a passport legally.  If one applies for a passport he must show proof of citizenship, right?  Many job applications, school applications and other documents have a box to check for US Citizen.  Would it be lying to check yes?  Or, should we all check no?

I have known many folks who see Philippians 3:20-21 as meaning that we are not really citizens of the USA.  However, when I have discussed this with them they only seem to want to apply it to voting and serving in the military.  They have no problem with the "perks", but reject the responsibilities that come with them.

Actually, most of us see the verse in question as applying to our ultimate loyalty and eternal destination rather than as a legalistic prohibition.

But, let’s assume that the founding fathers had erroneously presumed that Paul was allowing latitude whereby they might set aside his exhortation and rebel against the unreasonable edicts of King George.  By what manner of reasoning did they decide that the Lord would sanction the establishment of a new nation; sectarian or Christian.

Chuck, this objection was raised at the time and answered.  I am not going to attempt a long dissertation on the subject, but will just mention a couple of topics you can research if you wish: Scottish Common Sense philosophy and Natural Rights theory.  In sum, they believed that God had given men the right to change the form of their government under certain conditions.

They did not ask God's sanction on their new government.  They believed, as you do, that only Israel had a specific land grant from God.  They believed that God, in creating man in his own image, had given him sufficient intellect to form just and equitable governments.  They also knew that man was fallen and easily corrupted, so they did all they could to protect men from government abuses.

They weren't perfect, Chuck...but what they did was to form a government that has lasted over two centuries and is working on a third.  Most folks seem to think that this is a pretty good outfit, seeing as how they try to get here in such numbers by any means possible.

Speaking for myself, I am grateful to be a citizen of the USA and take my rights and responsibilities as a citizen very seriously.

Blessings,

Tom M.

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

YOU WROTE: Speaking for myself, I am grateful to be a citizen of the USA and take my rights and responsibilities as a citizen very seriously.

MY RESPONSE: I don’t regret having been born and raised in this country and I also take my rights and responsibilities as a U.S. citizen seriously.  But I read of our brothers and sisters in China who are putting their lives on the line for their faith and I wonder how many of us here would avail ourselves of the grace of God to be able to withstand the persecution they have experienced.  And I wonder how many of us will hear that glorious benediction “Well done thou God and faithful servant,” as they shall.  Perhaps we should not be quite so grateful.

God bless,

Chuck 

[Chuck Miller]

Tom.

YOU WROTE: Chuck, [you said] "We Christians"?  Seems to me that most Christians do not see the fact that our citizenship is in heaven as prohibiting acknowledging our earthly citizenship.

MY RESPONSE:  And you didn’t hear me say that it does, Tom.  Yes,
I am a citizen of the United States and I have clearly outlined my responsibilities as such on Reply #123, so I don’t see a need to repeat them.

YOU WROTE: Seems to me that anyone who really believes as you seem to should apply for resident alien status.  After all, if you are not a citizen of the USA you cannot vote or hold a passport legally.  If one applies for a passport he must show proof of citizenship, right?  Many job applications, school applications and other documents have a box to check for US Citizen.  Would it be lying to check yes?  Or, should we all check no?

MY RESPONSE: I guess you didn’t bother to read my previous posts wherein I addressed these inane postulations.

YOU WROTE: I have known many folks who see Philippians 3:20-21 as meaning that we are not really citizens of the USA.  However, when I have discussed this with them they only seem to want to apply it to voting and serving in the military.  They have no problem with the "perks", but reject the responsibilities that come with them. 

MY RESPONSE:  Then maybe you should be talking to the ones who do accept the responsibilities, but refuse to compromise the commands of Christ in deference to loyalty to a decadent nation that has sunken to the depths of depravity and unrighteousness.

YOU WROTE: Actually, most of us see the verse in question as applying to our ultimate loyalty and eternal destination rather than as a legalistic prohibition.

MY RESPONSE: If you consider this “ultimate loyalty” to be superceded by loyalty to a flag or a sectarian government, have at it Tom.  I don’t view it as a “legalistic prohibition,” but rather as the ultimate priority.

YOU WROTE: [a quote from my response] Quote: “But, let’s assume that the founding fathers had erroneously presumed that Paul was allowing latitude whereby they might set aside his exhortation and rebel against the unreasonable edicts of King George.  By what manner of reasoning did they decide that the Lord would sanction the establishment of a new nation; sectarian or Christian?”

Chuck, this objection was raised at the time and answered.  I am not going to attempt a long dissertation on the subject, but will just mention a couple of topics you can research if you wish: Scottish Common Sense philosophy and Natural Rights theory.  In sum, they believed that God had given men the right to change the form of their government under certain conditions.

MY RESPONSE: Do they believe that God gave them the right to alter His government or substitute another for it?

YOU WROTE: They did not ask God's sanction on their new government.  They believed, as you do, that only Israel had a specific land grant from God.  They believed that God, in creating man in his own image, had given him sufficient intellect to form just and equitable governments. 

MY RESPONSE:  God created Adam in His Own image and likeness (Gen 2:27).  Adam sinned and his progeny were created “in his own likeness, according to his image” (Gen 5:3).  Man has to be “born again” to be born in the image and likeness of God. 
It is recorded that “they” (the Founding Fathers) were predominantly Christian men, but several were Deists. There was no reason for the Christians to try to form a” just and equitable government,” since Jesus had instituted the perfect one when He established His church.  And when that church was functioning properly, it exhibited the wisdom of God and the power of God.  It is seen in the following account in the Book of Acts:

 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
 45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.                    Acts 2:41-47

What need had they of a sectarian form of government when God had blessed them with the most just and equitable one that the world has ever known.
 
YOU WROTE:  They also knew that man was fallen and easily corrupted, so they did all they could to protect men from government abuses.

MY RESPONSE:  Would you say that they have been successful, Tom?

YOU WROTE: They weren't perfect, Chuck...but what they did was to form a government that has lasted over two centuries and is working on a third.  Most folks seem to think that this is a pretty good outfit, seeing as how they try to get here in such numbers by any means possible.

MY RESPONSE   When you start comparing one secular government with another, Americans can feel a certain measure of satisfaction.  But we must look to Christ for our standard, not the world. 

[continue below]

[Mark C.]

Hi Chuck!

   I'm not sure if I understand your views on government;  are you suggesting that something like the Amish model would be ideal for Christians? (you know, live together and share all in common as the verses you quoted in Acts).

  If the church is God's only government what of the teaching of Jesus re. "The Two Kingdoms?"  (Jesus acknowledged the Roman Govt. and submitted to being taxed by this wicked emperor.)

  Re. the Founding Fathers of this nation:  It was established on principles that were indeed enlightened by the bible (not withstanding a couple of these men being off in their theology).  This understanding of the bible saw the dignity of man as created in the image of God.

 Though new birth is necessary to bring man to God's intention of this reality one must first acknowledge that God greatly values each person and wants them to enjoy true freedom in their lives.  This freedom is not just at death (though this is the ultimate hope) but is intended by God to be pursued by us as we live our day to day lives. 

  What I mean by the above paragraph is that Christians should do all they can in this life in attempting to bring about a worldly govt. that resists evil and promotes honorable ends.  We have been provided an unusual advantage to achieve this goal via our constitution (where these principles are clearly stated) and as Paul used his Roman citizenship so should we use our US citizenship.

  Of course, this is a sinful world and Christians would be foolish to think that their participation in politics is somehow "the answer", but the Judeo-Christian world view that has dominated (in the past) this country from the beginning has produced some very positive things:

 1.) We "saved" Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships that most certainly would have opposed the Gospel and oppressed believers (not to the mention the rest of humanity who would suffer under these).  Germany, Japan, and more recently The Soviet Union.  We did this because we believed in that "all men are created equal" and have the right to liberty, etc.

 2.) A very large Evangelical Christian missionary effort that also brings temporal blessings to fellow humans living in suffering. (this nation gives much more by far than any other in this effort).

 3.) Fought our own civil war in this country, in part, to bring about the end of slavery.

  Now, I know that this nation has also produced some very evil things, but when it does it violates it's own principles (as with Native Americans) and this is an important difference as it provides an opportunity for repentance and growth as we try to right these wrongs.

 Also, as we sit here and shake our heads and point fingers at all "the sinners" around us in this nation we need to be careful that we don't lift up our head in prayer and say something like, "I thank thee Lord that I am not like" them and "thus pray with ourselves."  Only God's grace has changed us from our fallen condition and we need to remind ourselves that this continues to be the case with us lest we fall.

  I am very thankful that God has allowed this nation to exist and do believe He has blessed it because of the principles upon which it was established and because of the sacrafices of those who have served it's wonderful goals. 

                                                         God bless,  Mark C.

[Joe Sperling]

I'm not totally sure if I fully understand the argument Chuck is really making, but I recall that the Apostle Paul, in Acts, more than once, claims his Roman citizenship. In one instance he makes the claim in response to mistreatment he is receiving at the hands of others. If Paul's only citizenship was in Heaven I doubt he would have mentioned his earthly citizenship at all.

Not that this is Biblical, but I have always believed the United States was created and was used by God to represent heaven in a kind of earthly form. The United States welcomes ALL who want to come, and has a diversity unlike any other country. Though not followed at all times, the Constitution is written as a Supreme Law with all citizens "created equal". Heaven will be filled with every race and culture---as is the United States.

Interestingly, Our Government is split into (3) "Heads" so to speak---Executive, Judicial and Legislative. God is made up of (3) persons---not to be trite, but the Executive could represent the Father, the Judicial the Son, and the Legislative The Holy Spirit(though all co-equal in power--"balance of powers").  Of course, the (3) branches may all be coincidental, but I have always felt God was giving a message in the creation of the United States. Our money says "In God We Trust" on it, and our Pledge says "One Nation, Under God". The United States has always tried to live by "The Golden Rule", and is always the first to lend a hand to other nations.

Chuck says the United States was founded by "well-meaning, but misguided men". I don't believe this to be the case at all. I believe these men were led by God to a new land. I don't believe the Bible teaches that men are to sit under any form of government and "accept their fate", or all Christians would ever do is sit still---there would be no exploration, no invention, no seeking for better things. "I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly". Men set sail for North America because of promises like that one. The "abundant life" is mainly spiritual of course, but it also refers to physical life also.

Would it be "unbiblical" for Christians, if they were the one's being sent to concentration camps, to "rebel" against a cruel and horrible government like Nazi Germany? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Christian during that time, whose books are in every Christian bookstore, was involved (though not physically present) in an attempt to assassinate Hitler at that time. He was jailed for it. Was he acting unscripturally? Would a better choice be to sit back and do nothing because his "citizenship" was in Heaven? Was Dietrich Bonhoeffer "well-meaning but misguided"?

I have to admit, even as a child (far before my conversion), I wondered, with strong distaste, at children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who would remain seated during the "Pledge of Allegiance". How could they not salute the flag? By not doing so were they really pleasing God? And today, I still feel the same. How can one not stand when the National Anthem is played, after thousands of people have died for that flag, and for all of the rights we possess as U.S. Citizens? Where is my allegiance? Am I a "citizen of Heaven", but have an earthly allegiance to myself? Or am I a "citizen of Heaven" with an earthly allegiance to a country, with a high set of Ideals, whose citizens have sacrificed themselves,  so that others could continue to live with freedoms we possess which are hardly known anywhere else in the world?

God chose the land of Israel for the Jews---but who has always been it's strongest defender and friend, giving more aid to it than any other country? The United States was created for a purpose, and not by "well-meaning but misguided men". Despite the evils (slavery for example) that come with men, God raised up the United States to be a defender of Israel in the last days. I really believe that.

[Chuck Miller]

[CONTINUED FROM ABOVE]

YOU WROTE:  2.) A very large Evangelical Christian missionary effort that also brings temporal blessings to fellow humans living in suffering. (this nation gives much more by far than any other in this effort).

MY RESPONSE:  I commend the Christians who have contributed aid to the victims of disasters.  We are instructed by Christ to do so.  But where in the Constitution are politicians granted the responsibility or right to disburse money for benevolent purposes   Read Davey Crockett’s speech to Congress “Not Yours To Give”  (www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm) .   Perhaps if our politicians understood the Constitution in the manner in which Crockett did, this country would not be in such dire financial straits.
Remember also that this nation supplied arms both to Osama Ben Ladin and his Afghanistan army and to Saddam Hussein in his fight against Iran. I understand the U.S. has also provided arms, as well as humanitarian aid to Hamas in Palestine.

YOU WROTE.  3) Fought our own civil war in this country, in part, to bring about the end of slavery.

MY RESPONSE:   I find it hard to believe that you would use the Ciivil War as an example of how the “Judeo-Christian world view that has dominated (in the past) this country from the beginning has produced some very positive things.”
If you do a little research Mark, I think you’ll find that the primary reason for Mr. Lincoln’s Civil War was to prevent Southern States from seceding from the Union.  There were differing opinions concerning the sovereignty of the states, particularly on the issue of slavery.  Certainly, Jesus would never have sanctioned slavery in the manner in which it was practiced in this country, but do you truly believe He approved of the bloody conflict that pitted Christians against Christians  and took nearly 700,000 lives?

YOU WROTE: Now, I know that this nation has also produced some very evil things, but when it does it violates it's own principles (as with Native Americans) and this is an important difference as it provides an opportunity for repentance and growth as we try to right these wrongs.

MY RESPONSE:  The “opportunity for repentance” does not always bring about repentance just as acknowledgement of sin does not always bring about a change of behavior.  In the church, unrepentant sin is dealt with by expulsion, whereas, unrepentant sin of a nation is generally rationalized away by its leaders and its citizens.  Righteousness is not like a balance scale where you pile the good deeds on one side and hope they outweigh the bad deeds on the other.  God’s standard is perfection and it is found only in His Son.

 YOU WROTE: Also, as we sit here and shake our heads and point fingers at all "the sinners" around us in this nation we need to be careful that we don't lift up our head in prayer and say something like, "I thank thee Lord that I am not like" them and "thus pray with ourselves."  Only God's grace has changed us from our fallen condition and we need to remind ourselves that this continues to be the case with us lest we fall.

MY RESPONSE:  And because we have God’s grace, we are no longer slaves to sin, and when unrepentant sinners are in our midst (in the church), we are not told to tolerate them, but to cast them out.   We are told not to judge those outside the church, for God will judge them.   But we are never told to be silent about sin. 

YOU WROTE:  I am very thankful that God has allowed this nation to exist and do believe He has blessed it because of the principles upon which it was established and because of the sacrafices of those who have served it's wonderful goals. 

                                                         God bless,  Mark C.

MY RESPONSE:  I too, believe God has allowed this nation to exist.  I also know that Israel wanted to have an earthly king and they persisted in their desire for one even though God warned them of the consequences.  He allowed them to have a king, to their detriment
I believe that God allowed this country to exist and prosper even though it was founded upon a false premise.  As for blessing – do you suppose He blesses a nation that slaughters millions of unborn babies every year; a nation that teaches its schoolchildren that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and permits same-sex marriages; a nation that idolizes sexual promiscuity and exports its perverse products to other countries? 
No, Mark, this country is going down and I believe it will suffer H is wrath as it does.  We have failed in our mission to bring light to a dark world.  The Christian church in this country has made a mockery of the purpose for which it was founded:

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.                                                                                         Ephesians 3:10

God bless,   Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Hi Mark,

YOU WROTE :  Hi Chuck!  I'm not sure if I understand your views on government;  are you suggesting that something like the Amish model would be ideal for Christians? (you know, live together and share all in common as the verses you quoted in Acts).

MY RESPONSE:  I don’t subscribe to the Amish model in that they isolate themselves almost totally from the world.   In doing so, their testimony is muted and unlike the church in Acts 2, they have not “found favor with all the people” (vs 47).  Their disdain for “things” of the world is taken to an extreme, to where they are looked upon as being “strange” or “religious” and lose the large part of their potential audience for the gospel.  Certainly, as followers of Christ (I prefer that description rather than “Christian”) the unbeliever should witness something different in our life that is attractive to them.  Not just in life style, but in character and in the peace and quiet joy that only Christ can give.

 YOU WROTE:   If the church is God's only government what of the teaching of Jesus re. "The Two Kingdoms?"  (Jesus acknowledged the Roman Govt. and submitted to being taxed by this wicked
emperor.)

MY RESPONSE:  And in doing so He left an impact upon the whole world.  Like all sectarian governments, the Roman government failed and finally collapsed.  The unbelievers  in Jerusalem (Acts 2) saw something in the followers of Christ that was working and many were attracted to it.  It wasn’t a cause or a movement to which they were attracted – it was Jesus Christ.  It wasn’t a cause or a movement about which Peter preached on the day of Pentecost - it was Jesus Christ.   

YOU WROTE:  Re. the Founding Fathers of this nation:  It was established on principles that were indeed enlightened by the bible (not withstanding a couple of these men being off in their theology).  This understanding of the bible saw the dignity of man as created in the image of God.

MY RESPONSE:  As I pointed out in my response to Tom, we are created in the image and likeness of Adam, so we have no inate goodness.  The only inalienable right we have is the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as our Savior.  We need to be born again (from above) in order to take on the image and likeness of God.

YOU WROTE:  Though new birth is necessary to bring man to God's intention of this reality one must first acknowledge that God greatly values each person and wants them to enjoy true freedom in their lives.  This freedom is not just at death (though this is the ultimate hope) but is intended by God to be pursued by us as we live our day to day lives. 

MY RESPONSE:  Mark, all I knew was that I was a lousy sinner and couldn’t reform my life no matter how much I wanted to, or how hard I tried.  I just wanted to be right with my God.  When I came to understand that there was nothing I could do to accomplish that and that Jesus had done it all on the cross, I received Him as my Savior and my Lord.  The peace (and freedom) that passes all understanding  filled my soul and spirit and has only gotten stronger as the years have gone by.

YOU WROTE:  What I mean by the above paragraph is that Christians should do all they can in this life in attempting to bring about a worldly govt. that resists evil and promotes honorable ends.  We have been provided an unusual advantage to achieve this goal via our constitution (where these principles are clearly stated) and as Paul used his Roman citizenship so should we use our US citizenship.

MY RESPONSE:  Read Deuteronomy 28, Mark, and see how Israel had the opportunity to establish an earthly nation that would have been greatly blessed by God.  But Israel disobeyed God and suffered the consequences of that which He had warned.   
We had an opportunity to show to the world, a perfect government for He says:

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.                                                                                         

In Acts 2, we see how the church was flourishing when they were functioning in accordance with Jesus’ purpose (vs41-43).  But it didn’t take long for ambitious men to federate the church into a hierarchichal system that ran counter to Christ’s purpose for His church.   Today, thousands of denominations and divisions abound in Christendom proving that we can’t even abide by His instructions for building His church.   Would you then have me believe that we are capable of establishing a worldly government that” resists evil and promotes honorable ends.”  In just a couple of centuries we have seen a nation that was supposedly established upon Judeo/Christian principles degenerate into  godlessness and relativism

  YOU WROTE:   Of course, this is a sinful world and Christians would be foolish to think that their participation in politics is somehow "the answer", but the Judeo-Christian world view that has dominated (in the past) this country from the beginning has produced some very positive things:

 1.) We "saved" Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships that most certainly would have opposed the Gospel and oppressed believers (not to the mention the rest of humanity who would suffer under these).  Germany, Japan, and more recently The Soviet Union.  We did this because we believed in that "all men are created equal" and have the right to liberty, etc.

MY RESPONSE:  We flatter ourselves when we take credit for having “saved” Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships. History shows that Adolph Hitler made some monumental tactical blunders that contributed mightily to his downfall.  I believe that God intervened in behalf of the Allied Armies by directing the thoughts of this evil tyrant in order to bring him down. 

[CONTINUED BELOW]]

[Mark C.]

 Chuck, a very blessed Easter to you and all BB readers!

  Thank you so much for your thoughtful response to my questions and my comments re. your posts. 

    I can't in one post answer each and every point you raised, and instead will try to focus on the main issue that this conversation seems to be taking; which might change the subject of the thread to: "USA A GOOD IDEA?" 

   This is a very good topic for former members of the Assembly as we were taught to relate to the world around us in a particular way that, to say the least, was very cynical.

  To describe my former view of the church and worldly govt. as instructed by GG succinctly:  All govt./peoples of the world are under the control of the Devil---and His true church (those gathering according to GG interpretations of NT gathering) are under God's direct guidance and control.

  If the above is as black and white as described above it means that all Christians (I have no problem using this biblical word to describe followers of Christ) should have nothing to do with "the devil's" worldly system of govt. There can be no middle ground in such an absolutist view that draws a line between "heaven's rule vs. the devil's rule."

  There were many in Israel at the time of Christ who expected the Messiah to fulfill his ministry by making just such a clear establishment of God's rule through the nation Israel; "Israel was of God and Rome was of the devil," and the Messiah was coming to set all things right.

  However, Christ had the harshest words for the religious leaders of Israel, not for the Roman empire, and had no intention in that time of establishing a millenial kingdom for "the followers of God."  His words, and the words of the Apostles do not see all govt. function as evil ( "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities.  For there is not authority except from God, and those that are established are from God---- For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil----- For it is a minister of God to you for good---" Rom. 13: 1-4)

  The above verses establish the fact that govt., provided by God, (when functioning as it should) is to have a moral component that supports good and supresses evil--- even evil that so called believers might do! 

   The biblical view of "good and evil" is woven into the document of the US Constitution in every line and provides a strong foundation for the kind of function that Paul describes in the verses above.  Paul did not expect the Roman govt. to preach "you must be born again and then you will be able to do good and abstain from evil", and yet he did believe that it was to function as a "minister of righteousness."

   Would it ever be possible for the church, even when perfectly fulfilling NT design as you see it, to govern God's people?  If so why would Paul dissuade just such a notion by telling the Roman church that God had established earthly govt. to minister justice?  Yes, the church was to decide certain things re. fidelity to biblical orthodoxy and practice, but only had the power to excommunicate and commit the errant soul to God.

  It was for moral reasons (good and evil) that this nation established, "a more perfect union--dedicated to the proposition that all people are created equal."  This most certainly was a worthy goal and one that supported righteousness in the world that was superior to Rome, and in the US framers case King George!
English monarchy was filled with corruption and injustice (read evil), and though the American revolution was not an evangelical movement it provided an opportunity to exalt righteousness and denounce immorality.

  Yes, this nation has departed from the principles established at it's beginning, and as such----abortion, etc. will bring God's judgment.  However, since this is a nation "by the people---" it is our responsibility to be involved in resisting these evil forces and to stand for morality, even though we live in a pluralistic society.

  Though my mention of the Civil war surprised you, it is a perfect example of the above.  Yes, it was a terrible event in our history, but it was more than just a power struggle, and was fought over certain moral principles.  I am aware of the history surrounding this time, but it would be better to bring up this discussion in another post as it might become rather involved.  I'll just say right now that preservation of the Union meant fidelity to the principles of justice described in the Constitution.

                                                  God Bless and thanks again for being open to discussion,  Mark C.   

   

[vernecarty]

MY RESPONSE:  We flatter ourselves when we take credit for having “saved” Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships. History shows that Adolph Hitler made some monumental tactical blunders that contributed mightily to his downfall.  I believe that God intervened in behalf of the Allied Armies by directing the thoughts of this evil tyrant in order to bring him down. 

[CONTINUED BELOW]]

WW II is replete with seemingly serendepitous events that dramatically changed the course of the war. It was a time of incessant and fervent prayer on the part of countless believers and I agree that the outcome was less a matter of strategic brilliance on the part of the allies and more a matter of God's divine providence.
With regard to God sending Hitler a "Lying Spirit" as it were, the best evidence of that probably happening was his absolute conviction that he could successfully simultaneously open up an eastern front against the Russians. Had he not done that at the time that he did, the world in which we live today would be a very different place.
 Viva Popov!!!
Verne

[Chuck Miller]

{continued from above]

MY RESPONSE:  I would suggest you read some material from The Voice of the Martyrs on the internet and tell me whom you believe is having the greatest impact for Christ – these men and women, or those who founded this country.
 Regarding the abundant life, we are told to store up our treasures in heaven.   But lest I misunderstand what you are saying, Joe, would you mind explaining what you mean by the “abundant life” referring to the physical life also.

YOU WROTE:  Would it be "unbiblical" for Christians, if they were the one's being sent to concentration camps, to "rebel" against a cruel and horrible government like Nazi Germany? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Christian during that time, whose books are in every Christian bookstore, was involved (though not physically present) in an attempt to assassinate Hitler at that time. He was jailed for it. Was he acting unscripturally? Would a better choice be to sit back and do nothing because his "citizenship" was in Heaven? Was Dietrich Bonhoeffer "well-meaning but misguided"?

MY RESPONSE :  Yes, I believe that Bonhoeffer was acting unscripturally.  God said, “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord” (Romans 12:19).  From what O have read about him, he was a fine Christian man, but I believe he was misguided in joining the plot to kill Hitler.
And what would you conclude, Joe, from the seemingly “miraculous” manner in which Hitler escaped the plot to kill him.  I understand that He was convinced that God was watching over him.   Would you conclude that God was thwarted in His attempt to liquidate this evil man?
The Jews are still God’s chosen people even in their disobedience.  Throughout  history, God has punished them for their disobedience and dispersed them for the purpose of bringing them to repentance. 

 It is easy for you and I, while in the secure and comfortable confines of our homes, or while standing behind a lectern in an auditorium filled with like-minded adherents, to fearlessly ostracize Adolph Hitler and to criticize and condemn Christians who didn’t speak out in opposition to him during his ride to power.  It would have been quite another thing to do so in the hostile environment of Nazi Germany and the dreaded Gestapo.  Many bravely did, and suffered death or the horrors of the concentration camp. 

But will you be so quick to condemn the Ten Boom family, a Christian family in occupied Holland, who hid Jews in their home, while remaining outwardly passive in regard to Hitler and their German conquerors.  They were eventually discovered and were assigned to the dreaded death camps where the father was executed in the gas chambers.  But the two sisters, Corrie, and Betsy, in particular, became powerful witnesses for Christ Jesus in that camp.  Even in death, Becky became a legend, about whom her sister Corrie miraculously lived to tell. 

Let me ask you, Joe, who had more impact for the testimony of Christ, Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Betsy Ten Boom?

YOU WROTE:  I have to admit, even as a child (far before my conversion), I wondered, with strong distaste, at children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who would remain seated during the "Pledge of Allegiance". How could they not salute the flag? By not doing so were they really pleasing God? And today, I still feel the same. How can one not stand when the National Anthem is played, after thousands of people have died for that flag, and for all of the rights we possess as U.S. Citizens? Where is my allegiance? Am I a "citizen of Heaven", but have an earthly allegiance to myself? Or am I a "citizen of Heaven" with an earthly allegiance to a country, with a high set of Ideals, whose citizens have sacrificed themselves,  so that others could continue to live with freedoms we possess which are hardly known anywhere else in the world?

MY RESPONSE:  I stand when the National Anthem is played.  Were I a citizen of another country, I would do likewise.  I do not however, recite the Pledge of Allegiance even though it states that we are one nation “under God.”  This country has turned away from God and no amount of patriotic pseudo-Christian rhetoric will change that.   My allegiance is to, Christ, but even so, I don’t “pledge” my allegiance to Him, since I might find myself saying, like Peter, “Lord,  even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too” (Matthew 26:35).  Knowing the weakness of my flesh, better to say, “Lord, grant me the grace to stand when persecution comes, that I might not deny you.”  Remember that Paul said, “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall” (1 Corinthians 10:12). 

YOU WROTE:  God chose the land of Israel for the Jews---but who has always been it's strongest defender and friend, giving more aid to it than any other country? The United States was created for a purpose, and not by "well-meaning but misguided men". Despite the evils (slavery for example) that come with men, God raised up the United States to be a defender of Israel in the last days. I really believe that.
.
MY RESPONSE:  Then how do you explain Mr. Bush’s “Roadmap for Peace” accord wherein  he proposes the partitioning of land that God has given to Israel and giving it to the Palestinians?  But God has said,

“I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.  Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land” (Joel 3:2). 

God bless,    Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Hi Joe,

YOU WROTE: I'm not totally sure if I fully understand the argument Chuck is really making, but I recall that the Apostle Paul, in Acts, more than once, claims his Roman citizenship. In one instance he makes the claim in response to mistreatment he is receiving at the hands of others. If Paul's only citizenship was in Heaven I doubt he would have mentioned his earthly citizenship at all.

MY RESPONSE:  From your response, and the response of others,  Joe, you seem to have gotten the idea that I don’t believe that we should recognize our earthly citizenship.   To the contrary, I respect my U.S. citizenship and avail myself of all the privileges and benefits it allows its citizens. I respect and obey any and all of its laws that do not violate my conscience before God.   But my new citizenship under God began when He rescued me from the domain of darkness, and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son.  So, now I have dual citizenship, and my allegiance to Him takes precedence over my allegiance to a country or its flag.

YOU WROTE:  Not that this is Biblical, but I have always believed the United States was created and was used by God to represent heaven in a kind of earthly form. The United States welcomes ALL who want to come, and has a diversity unlike any other country. Though not followed at all times, the Constitution is written as a Supreme Law with all citizens "created equal". Heaven will be filled with every race and culture---as is the United States.

MY RESPONSE:  Joe, if the U.S. even remotely represents anything like heaven in earthly form, then I will apologize when we meet in the kingdom.   

YOU WROTE:  Interestingly, Our Government is split into (3) "Heads" so to speak---Executive, Judicial and Legislative. God is made up of (3) persons---not to be trite, but the Executive could represent the Father, the Judicial the Son, and the Legislative The Holy Spirit(though all co-equal in power--"balance of powers").  Of course, the (3) branches may all be coincidental, but I have always felt God was giving a message in the creation of the United States. Our money says "In God We Trust" on it, and our Pledge says "One Nation, Under God". The United States has always tried to live by "The Golden Rule", and is always the first to lend a hand to other nations.

MY RESPONSE:  I find your analogies to be lacking in spiritual substance and I’m astonished that you can view them metaphorically in relationship to God’s government.  Suffice it to say that I believe that “In God We Trust” engraved on our money and the words “Under God” in The Pledge of Allegiance” are the height of hypocricy from  a country that has turned away from God.

YOU WROTE:  Chuck says the United States was founded by "well-meaning, but misguided men". I don't believe this to be the case at all. I believe these men were led by God to a new land. I don't believe the Bible teaches that men are to sit under any form of government and "accept their fate", or all Christians would ever do is sit still---there would be no exploration, no invention, no seeking for better things. "I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly". Men set sail for North America because of promises like that one. The "abundant life" is mainly spiritual of course, but it also refers to physical life also.

[continued below]

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I have to say that I in no way believe the United States comes close to Heaven. I was simply saying that the United States is a "type" (in my opinion-- in all of it's earthly weaknesses) of Heaven in a sense, with all races, creeds and cultures living together in unity in one place. Of course, as we all know, the world is a flawed and sinful place, and there is no way this would represent Heaven--I simply feel it is a "type". C.S. Lewis, in one of his books--I believe it may have been the "Great Divorce", says there is an earthly London and a heavenly London--he was simply referring to the fact that the earth has many "types" and "mirrors" of heavenly things---some of the unseen being known by what is seen. If there is a place on earth that comes closest in representing what heaven would be, with the myriads of people there, it would be the United States, with all of it's blessings and freedoms. But this is infinitely less than what Heaven is, and that I fully acknowledge.

In regards to the Trinity, and the 3-fold nature of our Govenment--I in no way say this is Scriptural, or "substantively spiritual". Again, I see our Government as a "type" (though extremely weak and sinful) of God's goverment (3 persons ruling co-equally, with equal power and substance, yet in different stations). I realize fully that God's government is not a "republic" as the U.S. is---Heaven will be/and is  ruled by a King--the King of Glory---but in a weak earthly sense, our Governmnet represents the best that the earth has ever brought forth.  We were founded under the premise of being under God--though I agree Chuck---the U.S. has pulled back greatly from that and is more sinful than it has ever been before and in more rebellion towards God than ever before (more by what we "allow" than what we do).

When I say "the abundant life" (John 10:10) I am referring to the freedom one has from sin and death. One can live "abundantly" as they are freed from the fear and the laws of sin and death. But, while we are here, we are on an earthly plane---and if God opens a door for a better earthly life, should one settle for living under oppression? The Pilgrims and the Puritans saw an open door before them and sailed for a place where they would have more freedom. They didn't say "Well, we find ourselves under a Government that oppresses our religious freedoms, but let us accept our lot, and as pacifists do nothing?"
No---they took advantage of that open door and fled to eventually create their own Government.

You give the example of Betsy Ten Boom, and I have nothing but respect for what she and Corrie did.  But I have to say--I have tremendous respect for someone like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. also--who doesn't sit back and do nothing, but "rebels" against injustice and seeks to change the Government--not simply live under it's present precepts. Martin Luther King sought peaceful means, but it was still "rebellion"---and many, many Christians were involved in boycotting buses and fighting the racism that dominated the United States in the 50's and 60's.  That helped change America tremendously. Was Dr. King "misguided"?  Without people like him with their "dreams" and action, no change would ever take place.  Jesus said to "turn the other cheek"---but does this mean that when someone attacks unjustly we say "here is my other cheek--do anything you want--take everything and do what you will with my family"?  I believe there is a time when Christians, if they really care about others, will take action--even physical action, to liberate from evil. I believe Dietrich Bonhoefer reflects this. Yes---the assassination attempt failed, but we have no idea how this attempt effected Hitler psychologically--or how it may have effected his decision making thereafter. Did he feel invincible, or did it scare the daylights out of him? Moammar Khaddafi had bombs dropped 100's of yards from his house, killing part of his family. What did Khaddafi do after Reagan bombed him? We stopped hearing about him---it frightened him terribly. If Ronald Reagan (who claimed to be a Christian) simply "accepted his lot" he never would have bombed Khaddafi.

The movie "Sgt. York" is about the Medal of Honor winner from World War 1---a devout Christian, who at first was going to be a pacifist. But from reading the Bible, he changed his mind, and wound up being one of the most decorated military men of World War 1--showing extreme bravery and single-handedly capturing hundreds of enemy soldiers.

Read Ecclesiastes chapter 3 "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.....A time for war and a time for peace". Sometimes Christians have to ask "if I don't do this who will?" when facing injustice and suffering and evil. Do we "turn the other cheek" as we are led away to concentration camps? Though I admire the Ten Booms, I also admire a Bonhoeffer who would stand up against evil, take the responsibility to "do something" upon himself, and greatly think of others who could be libertated should the assassination attempt succeed. I believe that is also a Christian attitude.

Finally, despite Bush's plan to give some land to Palestine, the United States has been Israel's strongest ally since it's creation in 1948. This cannot be denied. Israel has literally been carried "by the wings of an eagle" (The U.S. symbol being the eagle of course), and much of it's strength being from huge donations of money from the U.S.  Of course, Israel would never fall even if the U.S. weren't there, as God has promised she never will. But, I believe the Lord has greatly used the U.S. in helping and keeping his people in their land up to date.

Thanks again for your responses Chuck---and truly appreciate your posts. In the end, were all one in Christ.  God bless you.

--Joe

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

One point I forgot to make was your reference that perhaps Hitler grew stronger and people would think God had been "thwarted" in his attempt to assassinate this evil man--that Dietrich Bonhoefer was mislead in being part of an assassination attempt.

We all know God cannot be thwarted in anything he does (and I know that is the point you are making--whatever God chooses to do he can do)---but why an assassination attempt upon an evil man failed, while an assassination attempt upon a good man (Martin Luther King Jr.---"good" in the sense that he was a Christian--full of failings, but considered cleansed by Jesus Christ) succeeded we just do not know. Was God "thwarted" in his attempt to Protect Martin Luther King Jr FROM assassination? Most definitely not.  But because the assassination attempt upon Hitler failed is no reason to believe that Dietrich Bonhoefer was not led by the Lord to make the attempt. Perhaps the very attempt, with God knowing the outcome, was orchestrated by the Lord--Dietrich Bonhoefer being led to do so. Who really knows?  Our thoughts are not his thoughts nor our ways his ways---they are past finding out.

--Joe