Spiritual Philosophy of Moral Foreign Policy

[Chuck Miller]

________________________________________
Hi Joe,

YOU WROTE: Chuck---

One point I forgot to make was your reference that perhaps Hitler grew stronger and people would think God had been "thwarted" in his attempt to assassinate this evil man--that Dietrich Bonhoefer was mislead in being part of an assassination attempt.

We all know God cannot be thwarted in anything he does (and I know that is the point you are making--whatever God chooses to do he can do)---but why an assassination attempt upon an evil man failed, while an assassination attempt upon a good man (Martin Luther King Jr.---"good" in the sense that he was a Christian--full of failings, but considered cleansed by Jesus Christ) succeeded we just do not know. Was God "thwarted" in his attempt to Protect Martin Luther King Jr FROM assassination? Most definitely not.  But because the assassination attempt upon Hitler failed is no reason to believe that Dietrich Bonhoefer was not led by the Lord to make the attempt. Perhaps the very attempt, with God knowing the outcome, was orchestrated by the Lord--Dietrich Bonhoefer being led to do so. Who really knows?  Our thoughts are not his thoughts nor our ways his ways---they are past finding out.

--Joe

MY  RESPONSE:   A point well taken. Joe, and certainly one we must consider.  My only question is, how do we reconcile an assasination attempt with Romans 12:19 – “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.”
On what basis do we justify murder, Joe?  Wouldn’t we have to determine how evil a person must be in order to justify our disobeying a command of God.  Six million Jews slaughtered?  Three million?  One million? A hundred? Fifty?  One?   I’m not trying to belittle the magnitude of  Hitler’s crime, but if I am going to set aside God’s command,  I’d better be able to establish some sort of criteria for doing so.

I’ll address your other comments in another post.

God bless,   Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

Thanks for the post once again.

You quoted in regards to us taking matters into our own hands:

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.”

I'm not so sure that attempting an assassination upon a very evil man would be considered "revenge". I think sometimes we have to be very careful we don't pigeon-hole a whole concept based on one verse of Scripture, or in keeping the "letter of the law", forget mercy and concern for others.

As an example, the Jehovah's Witnesses take a verse of Scripture about "eating blood" and apply this to blood transfusions. Because they are so legalistically attuned to "keeping the letter of the law" and not offending Jehovah thereby, they will allow little children to die in the hospital who desperately need blood, and feel they have "done the will of God" by not allowing the transfusion.

Both in the Old(the priests) and New Testaments(the Pharisees) God chastises leaders about keeping the Law but forgetting mercy and judgment. Would a merciful and loving God really be pleased with the death of a little child, and praise the parents for turning away the  transfusion that could have saved it? Who could believe such a thing? Someone who has misinterpreted scripture, forgotten mercy and judgment, and does not know the heart of God.

Suppose one was a Christian living in Iran and new that Amahdinejad the President was shortly going to unleash a weapon that would kill thousands of people. Suppose you were close enough to get to him---to actually assassinate him and prevent this. Would one sit back and say "well, the Bible says , 'Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord', and not do anything, or even try?? Would you live by the "letter of the law", and sit content that you are "obeying God" (though it may be your own interpretation of that verse) or would you think of the lives of thousands of people and their imminent deaths? Would God be pleased with you for doing nothing, or would He be pleased that you thought of others and attempted to save their lives? What kind of God do we serve?  I believe that is why Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in on the "attempt" on Hitler's life---he wanted to try to end the evil he saw all around him.

As another example of "living by the letter" the Bible says "I am the Lord that heals you" (Exodus 15:26)--what if we took that verse and said "I will not go to doctors because God will heal me--it says so in the Bible". And some groups actually don't go to doctors due to the misinterpretation of scripture such as this. But we all know that God has given brains and reason to man, to become scientists and doctors, so that they may discover the  remedies God has placed on earth for man's healing and health. Truly, God can heal supernaturally, but he usually expects us to use the resources he has given--he heals us through MAN, using what God has created on the earth as remedies. It would be stupid not to avail ourselves of the healing God has given by natural means.

So, when God says to "love the fatherless, protect the widows" and "love your neighbor as yourself" would he expect you not to give your all to protect them? Would he want you to "live by the letter" and sit back and do nothing as oppressors wreak havoc on the poor and weak? Are the words "love your neighbor as yourself" passive words?  If you lived in Iran and "loved your neighbor as yourself" and had the chance to protect them, and to end horrible evil, what would you do? Would you "live by the letter" or live by love and action? Would God be pleased that you did nothing, or would he be pleased that you put others before yourself and wanted to protect them?

You said:

On what basis do we justify murder, Joe?  Wouldn’t we have to determine how evil a person must be in order to justify our disobeying a command of God.  Six million Jews slaughtered?  Three million?  One million? A hundred? Fifty?  One?   I’m not trying to belittle the magnitude of  Hitler’s crime, but if I am going to set aside God’s command,  I’d better be able to establish some sort of criteria for doing so.

David set aside God's command when he ate the temple bread, and Jesus set aside God's command when he healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees were angry Jesus healed on the Sabbath and Jesus said "which one of you having an ox fall into a pit on the Sabbath would not have mercy on the animal and save it? And should not I have mercy on a woman who has been crippled for 38 years?" (paraphrase). The Pharisees were all about keeping the letter of the law, but had forgotten all about Lovingkindness, Justice and Mercy. "I am the Lord which exercise Lovingkindness, Justice and Mercy in the earth, for in these things I delight, saith the Lord" (Jer. 9:24).

I believe the criteria you are asking for is this:  "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself".

[Oscar]

Joe,

Excellent points. 

I would like to add that defending the weak and helpless from evil is not necessarily "vengeance" at all.  In the ancient world and even today among primitive peoples the concept of blood guilt is very real.  If someone has killed a family member, the family is required to avenge them.  Most societies nowadays use monetary payments or payments in kind.

Defense of the weak and helpless can come into play before any violent act is committed.  If I saw a man heading for my wife or kid with a weapon, I would intervene with all the force in my power in an attempt to prevent
the harmful act. 

Chuck,

You said:

MY RESPONSE:  From your response, and the response of others,  Joe, you seem to have gotten the idea that I don’t believe that we should recognize our earthly citizenship.   To the contrary, I respect my U.S. citizenship and avail myself of all the privileges and benefits it allows its citizens. I respect and obey any and all of its laws that do not violate my conscience before God.   But my new citizenship under God began when He rescued me from the domain of darkness, and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son.  So, now I have dual citizenship, and my allegiance to Him takes precedence over my allegiance to a country or its flag

It appears to me that this is about what we ALL believe.

So, what is the basis for your objection to the Iraq war?  Is is that you are against all violence, ie, that you are a pacifist?

Tom Maddux

[Chuck Miller]

Joe,

One quick question:

Then what do believe the God did mean when he said "“Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.”

Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck----

I'll answer that by giving two small examples:

1)Someone in the office says something untrue about you causing you to be "written up" for something you were not responible for. You think inside "I'm going to get that guy! He's going to pay for that!!" This is a feeling of vengeance. You were wronged, but you want to exact vengeance on the person for what they have done to you. You want to see them pay for it. God says not to act on it, but to give it to him and he will repay in His own way.
That is basically what a feeling or sense of vengeance is(on a human scale), and the response one thinks of usually comes from hatred and bitterness. God says this is wrong---He will repay. God will repay in just judgment for the evil which has been done--his vengeance will come from righteous hatred of evil.

2)Someone in your office constantly picks on an overweight person in the office, making fun of them, and making their life a living hell. They are so shy, and have such low self-esteem, they put up with it and never say anything. You think inside "This isn't right. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself". If I were being treated that way how would I want others to respond?" The next time you see the person picking on this weaker person, in righteous indignation, you confront them and ask them to stop (most people who pick on others are cowards,  and usually are pointing out the weaknesses of others due their own weaknesses and faults. They will usually cease when confronted). You stand up for the weaker person and also befriend them.
This is "righteous indignation"--this is love in action when one sees an injustice.

Again, these are poor analogies, and on a far smaller scale than an assassination, but perhaps it explains a bit where I am coming from.

When Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in on the attempt to assassinate Hitler, he was not reacting from a heart filled with vengeance, but from a heart of righteous indignation. He was thinking of all the people he could spare greater pain and suffering, by ridding their country of an evil man. God says "vengeance is mine" but he never says all "righteous indignation" is his alone---he wants and expects us to "act" in a righteous manner, and to  help and protect our neighbors. God is not a pacifist.

[Chuck Miller]

Joe,

YOU WROTE:
Chuck----I'll answer that by giving two small examples:

1)Someone in the office says something untrue about you causing you to be "written up" for something you were not responible for. You think inside "I'm going to get that guy! He's going to pay for that!!" This is a feeling of vengeance. You were wronged, but you want to exact vengeance on the person for what they have done to you. You want to see them pay for it. God says not to act on it, but to give it to him and he will repay in His own way.
That is basically what a feeling or sense of vengeance is(on a human scale), and the response one thinks of usually comes from hatred and bitterness. God says this is wrong---He will repay. God will repay in just judgment for the evil which has been done--his vengeance will come from righteous hatred of evil.

MY RESPONSE:  You help make my point, Joe.  What I deduce from your reasoning  is that God is saying “Don’t act on it, unless it is a heinous crime, like killing 6 million Jews.” 
At what point is the crime so severe that I can justify acting on it?   

2)Someone in your office constantly picks on an overweight person in the office, making fun of them, and making their life a living hell. They are so shy, and have such low self-esteem, they put up with it and never say anything. You think inside "This isn't right. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself". If I were being treated that way how would I want others to respond?" The next time you see the person picking on this weaker person, in righteous indignation, you confront them and ask them to stop (most people who pick on others are cowards,  and usually are pointing out the weaknesses of others due their own weaknesses and faults. They will usually cease when confronted). You stand up for the weaker person and also befriend them.
This is "righteous indignation"--this is love in action when one sees an injustice.

MY RESPONSE:  Yoiur logic escapes me, Joe.  For what would you say if I said, ”this guy is an evil person, so I am going to get rid of him.”  I also find several others who agree with me and we carry out a plot to murder him.  According to your reasoning, why would we not be justified?   Who decides?

YOU WROTE:  Again, these are poor analogies, and on a far smaller scale than an assassination, but perhaps it explains a bit where I am coming from.

When Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in on the attempt to assassinate Hitler, he was not reacting from a heart filled with vengeance, but from a heart of righteous indignation. He was thinking of all the people he could spare greater pain and suffering, by ridding their country of an evil man. God says "vengeance is mine" but he never says all "righteous indignation" is his alone---he wants and expects us to "act" in a righteous manner, and to  help and protect our neighbors. God is not a pacifist.

MY RESPONSE:  Again, I would have to ask, “What is the  criteria for deciding when it is OK to set aside a command of God.  I’m sure that there are many people today who would agree that it would be OK  to assassinate President Bush since they believe he is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people , including American service men.

God bless,  Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

I had written the following to Joe:   

From your response, and the response of others,  Joe, you seem to have gotten the idea that I don’t believe that we should recognize our earthly citizenship.   To the contrary, I respect my U.S. citizenship and avail myself of all the privileges and benefits it allows its citizens. I respect and obey any and all of its laws that do not violate my conscience before God.   But my new citizenship under God began when He rescued me from the domain of darkness, and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son.  So, now I have dual citizenship, and my allegiance to Him takes precedence over my allegiance to a country or its flag

Tom, you responded as follows:   It appears to me that this is about what we ALL believe.

MY RESPONSE:  Good, now we can go on.  I thought I had explained this pretty thoroughly in previous posts.

YOU WROTE:  So, what is the basis for your objection to the Iraq war?  Is is that you are against all violence, ie, that you are a pacifist?

Tom Maddux

MY RESPONSE:  Again, Tom, I have given my objection in previous posts Nos. 113, 123, 127, 128.  I won’t bore you with repeating what I have already said.  I haven’t changed my thinking, but will listen to your reasoning.
As for your question as to whether I am a “pacifist,” I don't particularly like labels since they mean different things to different people. but I guess I would say, “yes.”  How would you label yourself, Tom?

God bless,    Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

Apparently you are not seeing the difference between vengeance and righteous indignation. All terrorist acts are out of "vengeance". They kill hundreds of innocent people out of hatred, to "get back at" the United States for wrongs, or supposed wrongs, or for "offending" the god of Islam.

You said:
Yoiur logic escapes me, Joe.  For what would you say if I said, ”this guy is an evil person, so I am going to get rid of him.”  I also find several others who agree with me and we carry out a plot to murder him.  According to your reasoning, why would we not be justified?   Who decides?

Why would I want to murder this guy? All this guy (as I stated in my example) is doing is insulting someone--I am standing up to him not in vengeance, but in a righteous indignation for him to stop harming another. However, if this same person (and I knew it) was walking towards the building with an AK-47 drawn and ready to kill people, I would be completely justified (if I had a gun) in shooting him to death before he kills several people. In the same vein, if I knew the President of Iran was seriously intent on killing thousands of people, I would be justified in attempting to assassinate him--this would not be out of vengeance, but out of concern for others. I'm not sure why my "logic is escaping you"--I believe it is easy to understand.

There is a big difference between acting in "vengeance" out of hatred, and acting out of concern for others and preventing great harm.

You said:
MY RESPONSE:  Again, I would have to ask, “What is the  criteria for deciding when it is OK to set aside a command of God.  I’m sure that there are many people today who would agree that it would be OK  to assassinate President Bush since they believe he is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people , including American service men.
[/color]

This is truly very poor logic. Bush has never said he wants to "wipe Israel off of the map" or said that the "Holocaust never happened". He is not making terrorist threats against other people. If Bush were to come out and say "I want to kill as many Iraqi's as possible and I am planning to nuke them very soon". And then he began to show signs that he was absolutely serious about this, and was going to kill thousands of innocent people, not to combat terrorism, but for the sake of killing Iraqis, then assassination might be warranted (though in the US as you know, he would be removed or impeached far before it ever came to a need for assassination).

Hitler wanted to kill jews because they were jews. He wasn't intervening in a country to remove a dictator and combat terrorism, he wanted to conquer the world for Germany. There is a huge difference between a President Bush (no matter how much you may despise or disagree with him) and a person like Adolf Hitler. But even then, as I mentioned, Dietrich Bonhoeffer was not acting in vengeance, but in an effort to PREVENT further evil against innocent people when he got involved in the attempt to assassinate Hitler.

And once again, I must ask what command of God you are referring to? If your interpretation of "Vengenace is mine saith the Lord" is to be a pacifist even when we could try to stop great evil, I would have to say I disagree with your interpretation. Again, I must mention the Pharisees in Jesus' day. They were certain that Jesus was breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath, and they were correct in this case--he was breaking the Law. They were so strict in their "interpretation" of the Law that they would rather see people continue suffering in their infirmities, rather than be healed, and break a cardinal rule of their Law. They thought somehow they were pleasing God by enforcing "rules", yet they were laying aside love, mercy, and forgiveness for their neighbors. Imagine if one were so strict in their interpretation of Scripture and "obeying" that interpretation that they forgot what it meant to "love our neighbor" and "protect the widows and be a father to the fatherless"? Imagine if one believed that God loved the command more than the people who the command was given to?

NEWS FLASH:  "Today, President Amahdinejab of Iran made good on his threat to kill thousands of "infidels", sending missiles into several air bases and embassies throughout the Middle East. Casualties are tremendous, but there is no word yet as to how many have died. In a strange twist, his personal secretary, a Christian, had the means to kill Amahdinejab before he pushed the buttons, but did nothing. "The Bible says 'Thou shalt not Kill' and also "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord" said Ahmed Rahmedan, the secretary and assistant, "and I did not want to disobey a commandment of the Lord" he added. Asked why he did not act on an assassination attempt when he could have saved many lives, Rahmedan said "That would be setting aside God's command. Only he takes vengeance, and I do not want to displease him" he said. We will have further news later on this most tragic event.

[moonflower2]

Chuck---

NEWS FLASH:  "Today, President Amahdinejab of Iran made good on his threat to kill thousands of "infidels", sending missiles into several air bases and embassies throughout the Middle East. Casualties are tremendous, but there is no word yet as to how many have died. In a strange twist, his personal secretary, a Christian, had the means to kill Amahdinejab before he pushed the buttons, but did nothing. "The Bible says 'Thou shalt not Kill' and also "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord" said Ahmed Rahmedan, the secretary and assistant, "and I did not want to disobey a commandment of the Lord" he added. Asked why he did not act on an assassination attempt when he could have saved many lives, Rahmedan said "That would be setting aside God's command. Only he takes vengeance, and I do not want to displease him" he said. We will have further news later on this most tragic event.[/color]

This is really too much! Is this how we are to respond if the threat is to someone in our immediate family? We would rush to protect them and do whatever we needed to do to stop the threat to them. At least I would.

The immediate family scenario is a small-scale picture of the larger picture of what is going on in Iraq, in my opinion. They state that they hate jews and christians and are continually making plans that reflect this hatred. We stand by and do nothing? You've got to be kidding.

[Chuck Miller]

Joe and Moonflower,

NEWSFLASH:  Now it came about that the nation of Iran sought to make war against the United States. together with some of the Syrians and Palestinians
 Then some came and reported to President Bush, saying, "Ahmadinejad is preparing to send nuclear missiles against America.
 President Bush was afraid and turned his attention to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all the country.
 So Americans gathered together to seek help from the LORD; they even came from all the cities of New York and Los Angeles and Chicago to seek the LORD.
 Then President Bush stood in the assembly of the Congress and Senate, and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You.
 "Did You not, O our God, bring us to this land in order for us to form a more perfect union?
We  have lived in it, and have built You many churches for Your name, saying,
 'Should evil come upon us, the sword, or judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we will stand in this land and before You (for Your name is in this land) and cry to You in our distress, and You will hear and deliver us.'
 "Now behold, the Iranians and Syrians and Palestinians whom we have aided in past; see how they are rewarding us by coming to destroy our land and your people.
"O our God, will You not judge them? For we are powerless before this great multitude who are coming against us; nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on You."
 All America was standing before the LORD, with their infants, their wives and their children.
Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the LORD came upon Vice President Cheney
and he said, "Listen, all citizens of the United States and President Bush: thus says the LORD to you, 'Do not fear or be dismayed because of these terrible missles, for the battle is not yours but God's.
'You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, stand and see the salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O America ' Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."
 President Bush bowed his head with his face to the ground, and all America fell down before the LORD, worshiping the LORD.
The Californians and the New Yorkers stood up to praise the LORD God of Israel, with a very loud voice.
They rose early in the morning and went to the Capitol Building and when they went out, President Bush stood and said, "Listen to me, fellow citizens,, put your trust in the LORD your God and you will be established. Put your trust in the country that was founded on His principles and in its leaders."
When he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who sang to the LORD and those who praised Him in government buildings, as they went out before the Senators and Congressmen, "Give thanks to the LORD, for His lovingkindness is everlasting."
When they began singing and praising, the LORD established missile shields so that many were destroyed in the air and others were directed back to where they had been launched..
Then the Iranians became confused and rose up against the Syrians and Palestinians destroying them completely; and when they had finished with the Syrians and Palestinians they helped to destroy one another.
When the American Generals came to the lookout of the desert, they looked toward the multitude, and behold, they were corpses lying on the ground, and no one had escaped.
When American forces came to take their spoil, they found much among them, including goods, garments and valuable things which they took for themselves, more than they could carry. And they were three days taking the spoil because there was so much.
Then on the fourth day they assembled in Washington
Every man of California, and New York returned with President Bush at their head, returning to the U.S. with joy, for the LORD had made them to rejoice over their enemies.
They came to Washington with harps, lyres and trumpets to the house of the LORD.
And the dread of God was on all the kingdoms of the lands when they heard that the LORD had fought against the enemies of America.
So the United States was at peace, for their God gave them rest on all sides.
Now President Bush reigned over America. He was forty five years old when he became President, and he remained in office for 20 years, because the people wanted him to be their President

Well, Joe, my newsflash may sound a bit more far fetched than yours, but if you will take the time to read 2 Chronicles 20, you will see that God does indeed protect the righteous.
Obviously I am being facetious in my newsflash, since my portrayal of Mr. Bush and the American people is slightly exaggerated. 

And have you thought of the possibility that in your own scenario God might be saying, “I have tolerated this disobedience nation for too long.  They have slaughtered unborn children, defiled themselves with ever kind of immorality and debauchery, squandered the good things I allowed them to have. I gave them ample warning that I am angry with them, so that they might repent, but they would not take heed.  So now, I shall use an evil man to punish them for their unrighteousness.  Many righteous ones will die with the unrighteous, but they shall be with me I my everlasting kingdom.”

God bless,   Chuck

[moonflower2]

Well, since it doesn't say that Chicago praised God, I'll get out my slingshot and defend myself and my heirs. I've already got the pepperspray. 

[Chuck Miller]

 Moonflower,

I’ll accept your response as having been made in a rather off-the-cuff manner.   Perhaps you might want to think about the matter for a while and offer another response.

God bless,   Chuck

[moonflower2]

Yeah, it was just a sarcastic little funny, since Chicago had been left out of one of your paragraphs.

I do have pepperspray since I found a male neighbor standing in the gangway two feet away from my bedroom window one summer evening staring into it. (He had to jump a wooden fence to get to the spot he was at.)

Are you saying that God's people never went to war?

[Chuck Miller]

Moonflower,

YOU ASKED: "Are you saying that God's people never went to war?"

MY RESPONSE:  No, but had they been obedient they never would have had to for God said,


 1"Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

 2"All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:

 3"Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

 4"Blessed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground and the offspring of your beasts, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.

 5"Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

 6"Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

 7"The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.

                                                              Deuteronomy 28:1-7

God bless,    Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck----

I like your scenario, and it would be a great one if everyone in the United States believed in the God of Israel. I believe George Bush already has prayed to God many times for assistance in the Iraq matter though. And since this is the present time, and we are not the nation of Israel,  we need to be more realistic.

You said (in the prayer you mention below):
O our God, will You not judge them? For we are powerless before this great multitude who are coming against us; nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on You."

The fact is we are NOT powerless before this enemy, because God ALREADY has given the United States great might and power to help defend ourselves and Israel. This comes from the many prayers ALREADY made by millions of Christians.

Let me give another small analogy:  Your child contracts a terrible cold. You begin to pray "O our God, will you not judge this malady? For the child is powerless before this disease that is attacking him, nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on you".    You are to be admired for praying and believing God, but I believe the Lord's answer might be:  "Why don't you take him to the doctor for a shot of pennicillin? I have provided this antidote by showing it to intelligent men of medicine so that when an outbreak such as this occurs, you will be able to have the resources to combat it".   In the same manner, if a prayer was made concerning Syria and Iran, God would say: "I have already provided the resources through great technology gained through the scientists and inventors I have given you. I have already provided defense due to the many prayers already offered by millions of Christians in America".   Of course, I am not saying we should not pray to God or seek his help----but often he has ALREADY provided the help---we just need to avail ourselves of it!

NEWSFLASH:  As a group stood upon the Capitol steps praying and beseeching God to "do something" about the current threat, the secretary and assistant to Amahdinejab, Ahmed Rahmedan, decided people were more important to God than his own "supposed" obedience to a command, and he assassinated Amahdinejab before he could press the buttons. "As Jesus said, 'the Father already knows what we have need of before we ask him'. He had already provided an answer to the situation, I was just too stubborn to realize that I, myself, might be that answer" said Rahmedan. Rahmedan escaped those pursuing him,and was greeted with great praise for the thousands of lives he most assuredly saved in the process.

Moonflower: I hope by reading the posts you understand I am not saying we do nothing---just the opposite. My argument is that we SHOULD confront evil and make every attempt to battle it, even if doing so mighy require radical measures, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer's joining a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler.  --JS