Spiritual Philosophy of Moral Foreign Policy

[Oscar]

Chuck,

You said:

And have you thought of the possibility that in your own scenario God might be saying, “I have tolerated this disobedience nation for too long.  They have slaughtered unborn children, defiled themselves with ever kind of immorality and debauchery, squandered the good things I allowed them to have. I gave them ample warning that I am angry with them, so that they might repent, but they would not take heed.  So now, I shall use an evil man to punish them for their unrighteousness.  Many righteous ones will die with the unrighteous, but they shall be with me I my everlasting kingdom.”

On the other hand, God might not be saying anything at all.  Even if He were to say this, how could we know it unless it was added to present revelation?

So, such things will have to remain in the realm of speculation.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Oscar]

Moonflower,

YOU ASKED: "Are you saying that God's people never went to war?"

MY RESPONSE:  No, but had they been obedient they never would have had to for God said,


 1"Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

 2"All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:

 3"Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

 4"Blessed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground and the offspring of your beasts, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.

 5"Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

 6"Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

 7"The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.

                                                              Deuteronomy 28:1-7



God bless,    Chuck

Chuck,

These verses come from the Deuteronomic Covenant.  This was a conditional covenant made between Jehovah and the nation of Isreal just before they entered the land.  There is no Biblical, or for that matter historical, evidence that any other nation has ever entered into such a covenant with God.

So, the promises you quote simply do not apply to the USA, or any other modern nation.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[moonflower2]

Joe, I have the same outlook that you do.

Chuck, didn't God tell the Israelites to conquer Canaan?

Didn't David actually KILL Goliath?

[Explorer]

Hi Chuck,

I would also add to Tom's comments below that in the verses that you quote, I don't see where it actually says that they wouldn't have to go to war? It just states, "your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you". Do you somehow get from that that they were all sitting down while it happened? Sorry, please explain the connection.

Thanks.

[Chuck Miller]

Explorer,

YOU WROTE: 
Hi Chuck,

I would also add to Tom's comments below that in the verses that you quote, I don't see where it actually says that they wouldn't have to go to war? It just states, "your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you". Do you somehow get from that that they were all sitting down while it happened? Sorry, please explain the connection.

Thanks.  Explorer

MY RESPONSE:   Explorer,
The verse reads: "The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.”
So, I would say yes, and we see from, 2 Chronicles 20 that the Lord said:
 
15 "Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the LORD to you, 'Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God's.
 16'Tomorrow go down against them. Behold, they will come up by the ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the valley in front of the wilderness of Jeruel.
 17'You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, stand and see the salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O Judah and Jerusalem ' Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."

And we see the results:

29And the dread of God was on all the kingdoms of the lands when they heard that the LORD had fought against the enemies of Israel.
 30So the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God gave him rest on all sides.

God bless,    Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Tom, 

YOU WROTE:  Chuck,

These verses [Deuteronomy 28:1-7] come from the Deuteronomic Covenant.  This was a conditional covenant made between Jehovah and the nation of Isreal just before they entered the land.  There is no Biblical, or for that matter historical, evidence that any other nation has ever entered into such a covenant with God.

So, the promises you quote simply do not apply to the USA, or any other modern nation.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

MY RESPONSE:  Tom, You are right on both counts.  However, the events in 2 Chronicles 20 took place after the Israelites had broken the covenant that God had made with them in Deuteronomy 28.
You are also right about the verses not applying to the U.S.  You certainly had to understand that I was speaking facetiously, since I was juxtaposing a ridiculously hypothetical situation into the very real events of 2 Chronicles 20.   But let’s imagine for a moment that my juxtaposition was true - that we were a righteous, God-fearing nation, led by a righteous, God- fearing President who put his trust completely in the Lord.  Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddox and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer?  And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad?  And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.  “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”

   Trust in the LORD with all your heart
         And do not lean on your own understanding.
    In all your ways acknowledge Him,
         And He will make your paths straight.         Proverbs 3:5-6
   
God bless,    Chuck

[Oscar]

Chuck,

You said:

"But let’s imagine for a moment that my juxtaposition was true - that we were a righteous, God-fearing nation, led by a righteous, God- fearing President who put his trust completely in the Lord.  Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddox and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer?  And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad?  And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.  “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”

1. First of all, what exactly is a righteous, God fearing nation"?  A nation without sinners?  A nation where 100% of the citizens are born again and walking with God?  Would God settle for 95%?  90%? or what???

Last time I checked, Israel was a theocracy, and as long as the government and priesthood were diligent to attempt to force the people to obey the law pretty well, that was adequate.  I remember one verse where God was honoring the king even though he did not take all the high places away.

We are not a theocracy, we have no earthly priesthood, and most of the Law is not codified in our laws.  So, how can we know if we are being godly enough?

2.  You are reasoning in the same manner the Pentescostals do.  They reason, "since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, what we are doing in our churches is the same as the early church.

The problem is that the verse refers to the unchanging divine nature of the Lord Jesus, not to God's particular way of working at a certain point in history.  The former is unchanging.  The latter is not.

3. What you offer in support of your position is a series of questions.  How convincing is this: Is not Mark Campbell capable of shoplifting?  Does he not regularly enter stores?  Does he not have many of the things found in those stores in his possession?

This is, of course, absurd.  No one would accept this as any indication of Mark's purported guilt at all. What would be necessary is positive evidence that he had actually stolen something.

So, Chuck, you need to actually answer your own questions and then offer your answers in support of your position.  If you can't answer the questions with any certainty, the best you or anyone else could do is "perhaps".

4. Finally, remember that many, many godly saints have cried out to God for deliverance, and have not been delivered.  Seems to me that God's purposes are the deciding factor in the histories of nations.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[trac4yt]

"mess" or "controlled chaos"?  Just when was who behind what and behind where?
Makes  one wonder...

http://www.antiwar.com/engelhardt/?articleid=9515
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/berga.php?articleid=10671

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd261.htm
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

Thank God for the Bible.

 

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.  (Heb 12:27)

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. (Col 3:15)

[Chuck Miller]

Explorer,

YOU WROTE: 
Hi Chuck,

I would also add to Tom's comments below that in the verses that you quote, I don't see where it actually says that they wouldn't have to go to war? It just states, "your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you". Do you somehow get from that that they were all sitting down while it happened? Sorry, please explain the connection.

Thanks.  Explorer

MY RESPONSE:   Explorer,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you.
Notice that the entire verse reads: "The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.”
So, I would say yes, I believe they were mere bystanders as the Lord delivered them. We see from, 2 Chronicles 20 that the Lord said:
  15 "Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the LORD to you, 'Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God's.
 16'Tomorrow go down against them. Behold, they will come up by the ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the valley in front of the wilderness of Jeruel.
 17'You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, stand and see the salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O Judah and Jerusalem ' Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."

And we see the results:

29And the dread of God was on all the kingdoms of the lands when they heard that the LORD had fought against the enemies of Israel.
 30So the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God gave him rest on all sides.

God bless,    Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Joe,

Without going line by line through your last 3 posts, I think I can best sum up my position as follows:

How would you answer someone who asks: “What if God (for whatever reason) had purposed to bring great persecution upon His people, the Israelites, and decided to raise up an evil Pharoah to do so.  And what if His intent was to demonstrate His power in him and that His name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth  (Romans 9:17)?  And  what if Moses had decided to kill evil Pharoah ?  Would he have been justified in trying to spare God’s people from the terrible oppression they were suffering, or would he have inadvertently been trying to thwart God’s plan?   God tells us:
 
 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
    Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. (Isaiah 55:

Unless we are perfectly tuned into God’s plan for bringing about His purpose for the people on this earth , aren’t we being presumptuous to suppose that we can act upon our feelings, whether it be out of  “revenge” or from “righteous indignation.”
I don’t know exactly what is God’s plan for this country.  He may very well intend to bring it to its knees  by the hand of an evil man such as Ahmadinejad.   I don’t know.  Do you, Joe?
And please don’t insinuate that I’m saying, “We are just supposed to sit around and do nothing.”  We are ambassadors for Christ and we have a commission to make disciples of all the nations.  We are to be salt and light in a dark world.

Incidentally Joe, don’t you suppose that Jesus knew that after His death, His followers would be persecuted and slaughtered by the Romans.   He even told them that they would be blessed for being persecuted for the sake of righteousness and that their reward in heaven would be great.   Would you suggest that Jesus didn’t have a concern for His followers?   And do you have any doubt that He could have appealed to His Father, and He would have at once put at His disposal more than twelve legions of angels?   

Just as an aside, Joe, you seem to be of the opinion that the U.S. has been intent on stopping great evil in the world, however, if you will recall, the United States didn’t exhibit any great desire to try to stop Hitler when he invaded Poland, Holland, Belgium and France and was mercilessly bombing England.  The pacifist U.S. never entered the war in Europe until Germany declared war on this country in 1941 after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. 

You seem to want to equate my interpretation of Romans 12:19 with pharisaism,  Joe.  O.K., but remember that Moses didn’t take God at His word and his  ”righteous indignation” caused him to strike the rock instead of speaking to it and because of it, he lost the privilege of leading the people into the land (Numbers 20:11).  And let’s not forget how God struck down Uzzah for touching the Ark, when God had instructed that only the priests were permitted to do so (1 Samuel 6:6-7).  One might even say that God was legalistic when it came to His commands.   
I would want to be absolutely sure that God condones killing and assassination before I would make such dogmatic assertions, Joe.  Otherwise, you might find yourself having to apologize to the little Iranian pacifist, Rahmedan

God bless,

Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck----

I appreciate your posts.  But you have a tendency to equate the United States with Israel. Though their are many Christians and Jews in the U.S. we cannot say that the United States are "God's People". I do believe He has greatly blessed the U.S. though due to the believing population, prayers, and the efforts of the U.S. in helping the less fortunate around the world, and defending those being oppressed.

The United States is made up of selfish men (as are all countries of the world), and true, the U.S. did not enter World War 2 until we were directly attacked by Japan. Perhaps if the U.S. had entered earlier, the war may have ended differently. Who knows?  The point I was making before is that the U.S. has given more to help other countries through charity and defense than any other country.

Regarding Moses, he in "revenge" did kill an Egyptian for abusing Jews. This "revenge" killing was totally wrong as the Bible declares. True, God had a "plan" for "his people Israel", and did indeed raise up Pharaoh and Moses, to show his glory for all time. God told Moses that in using a series of plagues he would eventually free Israel.  But again, Chuck, I do have to ask the question: If Moses had overheard Pharaoh say "At my command, in the morning, I will slaughter all of the Israelites beginning with the youngest" and he had an opportunity to kill Pharaoh before he could accomplish this horrible act, would he be warranted in killing Pharaoh to protect thousands of Israelites?  I know you will say "God would tell him what to do"--and He would as he had ALREADY told Moses he had a SPECIFIC plan in raising him up to address Pharaoh. But if Moses knew nothing, and only had a short time to act, would God be displeased with Moses for doing this, or would he be pleased with Moses for loving the people of Israel so much? Of course we are talking Law and Grace, but we are also talking about the heart of God.

But let's jump forward to today. We do not know God's SPECIFIC plan for America, or for any country for that matter. If another Pharaoh, in the form of Amahdinejab, not only threatens the Jews, but the whole world with his speeches, what are we to do? Again, if Amahdinejab said "In the morning, at my command, I will slaughter the infidels", and we had the opportunity to stop him through assassination, would we do nothing? Would we say "As in the days of Moses, God had a plan. He must have a plan here also. Perhaps he has raised this man up to bring persecution on the U.S. and on the world to turn us back to himself. I will do nothing and trust that God's Will will be done". ?

But we, unlike Moses, would have no idea what God's purpose is or what he is going to do. He hasn't told us he is going to use Amahdinejab and WILL spare the U.S. and others (he told Moses that Israel for sure would be freed after the tests he put upon Pharaoh--Moses KNEW that his people WOULD be freed). We have no such information. What if God's will was for you to stop him since you have the opportunity? Would it be "presumption" to try to save the lives of thousands of people? None of us can be "perfectly attuned to God's plan on this earth" ,that's why we must look to the heart of God and to His Word. He says to be a "father to the fatherless, and protect the widow". He says to "Love our neighbor as ourself" (to do for someone else what we would have them do for us). We cannot say "none of us are perfectly attuned to the will of God on this earth, aren't we being presumptuous to suppose that we can act upon our feelings, whether it be out of "revenge" or from "righteous indignation" (as you state below)---if we listened to this we would do nothing.  The act of trying to protect thousands of people would not be out of "feelings" but out of reason, compassion, and the very Word of God, where it asks us to consider others before ourselves. "Let him that would be greatest among you be your minister" (or servant). If this means attempting to eliminate an evil man to protect thousands of innocents, so be it.

Chuck---I hate to use this analogy, but it's true. Suppose, yesterday morning, a neighbor of yours, who was very odd, begins loading guns in his car. You had seen him acting erratically before, and making threats. He begins to pull out of the driveway and yells "I'm going to Virginia Tech, and I'm going to kill them all!!" You have a gun at your disposal, and have one clear shot. Do you take it? Or do you think "There must be a plan in all of this. Vengeance is God's. He will repay" and let him drive away? Would it be "presumptuous" of you to intervene, and try to save the lives of those on the campus? I seriously doubt you'd be thinking you might be "thwarting the plan of God" by eliminating this person.  In the same way, if Amahdinejab made a threat to slaughter the infidels, and you knew he meant it, would you think of "thwarting God's plan" or would you think of all the poor people who would suffer and die if you didn't act?

I know this event at Virginia Tech. just happened, and great suffering has occurred. Of course we pray for all of the victims families, and all of those effected. I only use this as an example because it just happened, and can only think of how different things would be if he could have been stopped before he went on the rampage.

Chuck---I know we both have different ideas and interpretations on this thought we have been ping-ponging back and forth. I just want to say that I appreciate the conversation, and your posts too. You have every right, as do I, to post our thoughts about those things. It's great to be a U.S. citizen because of this very fact!! I look forward to more of your thoughts in the future.  Even though you are wrong.

God bless,  Joe

[moonflower2]

1)Did David do wrong in killing Goliath?

2)I have another interesting thought:

The human body has antibodies in addition to white blood cells that actually attack and kill foreign and harmful entities. Since, spiritually, the body can be compared to the earth, I think we can draw some conclusions of similarity.

Is anyone following me on this one? Any thoughts on this?

Moonflower2

[Oscar]

Moonflower,

You said:

The human body has antibodies in addition to white blood cells that actually attack and kill foreign and harmful entities. Since, spiritually, the body can be compared to the earth, I think we can draw some conclusions of similarity

"...spritually, the body can be compared to the earth..."    Huh?

Do you mean that the Iranian president is like disease causing organism, so we white cells, (the good guys), are authorized to kill him?

Well...when we get rid of him, then we can start on other evil microbes.  Let's see,  there's the Democrats, and the Unitarians, oh yeah, don't forget about the Presbyterians...then there are the Masons, all cult leaders, boy this idea would save money on prisons, last but not least we could rid the world of tele-marketers at last.

The above paragraph is an attempt at humor.  Nevertheless I think your analogy could use a little work.

Tom Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

Moonflower,

You said:
"...spritually, the body can be compared to the earth..."    Huh?

Do you mean that the Iranian president is like disease causing organism, so we white cells, (the good guys), are authorized to kill him?

Well...when we get rid of him, then we can start on other evil microbes.  Let's see,  there's the Democrats, and the Unitarians, oh yeah, don't forget about the Presbyterians...then there are the Masons, all cult leaders, boy this idea would save money on prisons, last but not least we could rid the world of tele-marketers at last.

The above paragraph is an attempt at humor.  Nevertheless I think your analogy could use a little work.

Tom Maddux

Don't forget Bulletin Board Moderators.   

[moonflower2]

I was hoping that someone else could carry the idea farther. The body isn't told what to attack, it just does it. So I say hang 'em all high!