Harold Camping

[doug]

Has anyone out there ever listened to Harold Camping on KFRN? In the little time I have listened to him his entire ministry seems among the strangest I have ever heard. Also, while some of his conclusions differ from that of the assembly he does nevertheless remind me of Brother George, to at least some extent. I can't believe 300 people have read this.

[moonflower2]

I've heard him on 91.9 FM here in the Chicago area. Is he the guy who doesn't believe that we are in the church-age anymore? I don't believe he attends church because of this belief. I wonder if he preaches to his mirror at home on Sunday morning.

If I remember correctly, his response to a caller who wondered if the anti-Christ would be Satan incarnate,(as some have suggested) was "Oh, no" (he would not be Satan incarnate).

Moonflower

[outdeep]

I used to listen to him back in the 1980's.  He would relate every question he got to the five points of Calvin.  He was going through the book of Luke and would spend ages on each verse because he believed that every verse had to be interpreted in both a literal dimension and a spiritual one. 

One time Lee Irons and I were listening to his call in show and the conversation went something like this:

Lady:  Brother Camping.  I sure do appreciate your show and all you have done.  However, how can you be so hard-headed when it comes to baptism?  It says that John had to baptize at a certain place because there was plenty of water.  Why would he need plenty of water if he wasn't immersing people?

Camping: Well .. uh . .  what . . you . . have . . to .. .understand . . is . . that . .you . .have . . to .. look . .at. .the . . spiritual . .dimension . .of . . the . . passage. . and . .the . . abundance . .of . .water . . is .. a .. symbol . .of . .the .. plentitude . .of .. the . .gospel.

Lee and I just roared with laughter.  One person commented (and I think this is true) is that the only reason Camping is teaching is because he owns the radio stations.  He apparently was very successful in business construction, sold his business at a tremendous profit, and bought the radio stations.  To his credit, at the time, he wasn't compensated by the radio stations but living off of his investments.  So he wasn't in it for the money even if his teaching was screwy.

He began to fall from prominence when he wrote the book 1994?.  He believed that Jesus was returning that year due to mathematic calculations he made.  He said most Bible teachers miss this because they do not have an engineering background like he does.  Looking at Wikipedia, he apparently changed the date to 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping

Since I stopped listening to him, he did get into the idea that churches were apostate and folks should leave then and I guess form home churches.  I had left California before that doctrinal move happened.

Folks in the Assembly did like the radio station because they played a variety of good hymns and would even have times where they read through the Bible - something most Christian stations don't do.  They also aired Unshackled, the testimony drama from the Pacific Garden Mission.  Camping would do his "Bible Study" as well as a long evening call-in-question program where he clearly had the ability to turn off the caller until he finished his long answer.

He was comical to listen to because his deep, sonorous voice and his slow and articulate cadence would always lead people through the hyper-Calvinistic conclusion (often you would hear the caller in the background trying to say something but being stifled by the button).  The only time I heard him stumped was when someone called in who had a sex change, became a Christian, and wondered if he/she had to go back.

[DavidM]

Dave, I was just listening to "Family Radio" yesterday on KFRN! My wife hates it when I walk around the house singing those "Operatic" hymns. "IIIIII  COMEEEE TOOOOOO THE GARRRRDEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN..." During the 90's one of the "Bretheren" had his own program on Family Radio. He was a board member at Family Radio and He told me that Harold agreed to "step down" if the Lord had not returned by 94. Yet  the Lord and Harold didn't! I spent many an hour listing to Harold Hall? and "Nightwatch" Camping held to the teaching that "You can't remarry if your spouse leaves you!"  No matter what the circumstance! This fit along with George's teaching. Dave, what is your explanation as to Why the Lord allows characters like Camping to hold so much power, mislead so many people, shipwreck their faith and confirm the criticisms of those who depict Christianity as "Bafoonery". From my reasoning, people like Harold Camping are functioning outside of the bounderies of the very God they speak about!  Harold preaches "God will judge the false teacher...." Yet, his own life testifies to the fact that this is not true!   How do you account for this?

[doug]

Yeah, he owns the stations. Thats the only reason he could blab so endlessly. Other than a few others who get tiny snippets of time and who are apparently brain-washed acolytes, he is the only person to preach on his stations. His organization sent me one of his books. I started to read it but it became too convoluted and tiresome. I threw it away which is really saying something since I still have a copy of Testimony to Jesus. I agree with him about the drab nature of most churches though. He seems to believe that there were only a few people saved before 1988 and a great multitude saved since then. Most of those who are truly saved do not attend church, which according to Camping are controlled by Satan himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio

[outdeep]

Dave, what is your explanation as to Why the Lord allows characters like Camping to hold so much power, mislead so many people, shipwreck their faith and confirm the criticisms of those who depict Christianity as "Bafoonery". From my reasoning, people like Harold Camping are functioning outside of the bounderies of the very God they speak about!  Harold preaches "God will judge the false teacher...." Yet, his own life testifies to the fact that this is not true!   How do you account for this?

It has never been my understanding of Scripture or my experience that all evil is removed immediately.  Dictators remain, politicians lie, teachers deceive.  From the beginning of recorded history it seems to be that way.

Some theologians resolve this by seeing the Bible as teaching a "now, but now yet" idea.  Christians become saved, accept a new identity with Christ, move towards improving their life and values, seek to make the world a better place.  However, those who would force the issues and say Christians are completely holy now (the sinless perfection George was achieving) are denying reality and putting people into bondage.  Our salvation is now, but not yet.

Similarly, the judgment of God.  God has certainly used Christians (not exclusively, of course) to help end slavery, bring freedoms in the Cold war, bring medical relief, intervene on behalf of Muslims being killed in Sudan.  False teachers such as the Bakers, Swagarts and Haggart have been brought down.  Even with Camping, there are many within the church who seek to correct his false teaching by speaking out writing articles, etc.  So, there is judgment going on now.  But most theologians would agree that final and fuller judgment is going to take place at a later time.

Hebrews 9:27-29 pick up this idea:
"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Christ was offered once (first advent) but those Hebrews who saw salvation in terms of the restoration of their temple and getting Rome off their back and sacking the evil dictators and being an independent nation under God and was eagerly awaiting this would have to wait until Christ's second appearance.  Now, but not yet.

[DavidM]

Thanks!

[Joe Sperling]

11  Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. (Ecclesiastes chapter eight)

What Dave S. said below is very true concerning evil not being removed immediately.
I think this verse applies to the attitude of false teachers too. Full blown charlatans think "If there was a God he would have judged me by now!"  and those who believe in God but have perverted his word think "I must be teaching what is true or God would have judged me by now!"

In time though (sometimes after several years) the Lord does point these people out and judge them.

 

[doug]

he works the idea that everyone should leave church into just about everything he says. He also states flatly that the second coming will be in 2011. I threw all of the stuff he sent me away except for two cds with the entire Bible in mp3 format on them. He breaks every number he can find into a prime factorization and then crams his ideas into whatever he says the numbers signify. It really shows what happens when one man is given too much control with no accountability. I must say though that some of the things he and the other speakers say are at times reasonable.
 

[doug]

He knows he's wrong if you listen to him carefully (which I can't believe I actually do) he will let a freudian 'yeah' or an 'uh huh' slip in after someone disagrees with his doctrine. I wish he had visions or spoke to angels that would make his show even more entertaining. i can hardly wait until 2012 to laugh at him. He also changes his doctrine as he is pressured into doing so. he once taught that nobody was saved before 1988. Now he teaches that only a handful were saved. I wonder if brother george ever wished he owned a radio station. Is that a form of narcissism? Didn't he have a radio show at one time?

[EricFoy]

"...thank you for your call, and shall we take the next caller, please.  Good evening, and welcome to Open Forum... ...hello...? ...hello..?"

I listened to him quite a lot about fifteen years ago, and I always enjoyed it.  The one thing that really ticked me off, though, was the way he would lead someone to the point of making a decision for Christ, and then proceed to talk them right back out of it!  On this point, Calvinism (as some are wont to implement it) really blows!  "Since it is God who saves, then there is nothing you can do to secure your salvation."  Their logic is flawed at the most fundamental level, as their doctrine is built upon man's understanding of the unknowable.  They are forever caught in a vicious cycle.  Their plight is little different from that of the atheist who demands proof of God's existence in order to believe He exists.

Oh, well.  At least Brother Camping preaches the Gospel (I hope he still does, anyway).  It's just too bad he made himself a false prophet.

[doug]

Yeah and you want to hear a real crackpot listen to Tony Alamo.
Has anyone ever been to forest home?

[Oscar]

Yeah and you want to hear a real crackpot listen to Tony Alamo.
Has anyone ever been to forest home?

Doug,

1. Back in the 1970's while living in the San Fernando Valley, I bought a new Bible, then went to get some lunch in a local coffee shop.  After I ate I was sitting at my table "breaking in" my new Bible by folding back a few pages at a time.

A rough looking young man, (sort of a biker type), approached me and asked "Is that a Bible?"  I yes, and then then asked me, "Have you ever heard of Tony and Sue Alamo?".  I said yes, I had, and that they were the leaders of a heretical cult that did not really represent Christianity.

He told me that he had been hanging out on Hollywood Blvd one night, and that a bus with the word "heaven" in the destination window had pulled up.  Some friendly young people who begged him to go with them to a wonderful place where he could have free room and board and learn about God.  So he did.

The bus took him out of LA and out into the desert many miles from the nearest town to an islolated compound.  He found out that the place was run on a very strict schedule with chores, everlasting meetings, and constant immersion in the teachings of the leaders, Tony and Sue Alamo. 

After a couple of days he was thouroughly tired of this, and he asked to be taken back to Hollywood.  They said that they were sorry but only those who were commited to the "vision" and "ministry" of these "God annointed" leaders could ride the bus.  He realized that he was a prisoner of a cult!  He was free to leave at any time...but the prospect of hiking 20 miles accross the desert in Summer was a daunting prospect, to say the least.

He beefed and groused for a couple of days, but they would not relent.  So, he decided to "take a dive".  He put on an act that he had "seen the light" and wanted to commit his life to the cult.  They then allowed him to go on a recruiting team to Hollywood Blvd. 

He took his hike, but down Hollywood Blvd. instead of accross the desert.  :-)

The last I have heard of Tony and Sue Alamo was that they had left California to some place like Kentucky or Tennessee and were being charged with child abuse.  Later I heard that Sue, who was much older than Tony, had died.

What is this fellow up to these days?

2. Forest Home is a great place.  My church held its Men's Retreats there until last year.  I have spent many happy times there with Christian friends, fellowshipping, hiking, listening to good ministry.  It is in a mountain canyon north-east of San Bernardino.  There is a a year-round stream running through the canyon.  Beautiful place.

One of my best memories of FH is that the very first thing I did when I left the assembly in 1989 was to attend a men's retreat.  I had a wonderful time.  Surrounded by godly men of all sorts who had never heard of the assembly....and understood grace!  I was a healing balm to my soul.  Thank you Lord.

Tom Maddux

[doug]

 tony alamo is on klaa at 5 am. he went to jail for tax evasion. yeah, he's really anti-catholic.

so is jack chick.

 I went to forest home for a retreat about a month ago. It was very nice. Billy graham had an encounter there some years ago.

One of the senior people at my church said he wasn't even sure if all of the people at our church are even born again. I wonder what the p[ercentage of people who are truly worshiping in spirit and in truth at any given church is.
does anyone think we are in the end times?

[Joe Sperling]

I have to 'fess up to something I did quite a ways back---though I found it quite funny at the time. I had a
huge magazine type "tract" placed on my car by the Tony Alamo organization. Inside was an awful attack against
the Catholic Church. Not that I side with the Catholic church, but this was horrible. It literally said
that anyone associated with Catholicism was destined for hell, and attacked all believers that went
to any form of Catholic church. Much of the rest of the magazine centered around Tony Alamo and his personality,
and what a great blessing he was to the world, etc.

I took a piece of notebook paper and with a BIC lighter burned the corners, and browned the center
just a bit. Then I wrote:

Dear Tony,

Thank you for the great service you are doing in turning many away from the truth. It is much
appreciated. We'll be seeing you soon!

Satan

I mailed it off to the Organization's headquarters. I've often wondered what the reaction was to that letter upon opening it.