The Lucifer Factor

[outdeep]

Tom,

I would say one of the biggest changes in my thinking in my post-Assembly years is transitioning from the belief of "The Bible has all the answers" position to the "All Truth is God's Truth" position.

Of course, we never really held the first position absolutely.  The Bible doesn't tell us how to change the oil in our car, for instance.  However we assumed that in certain areas such as science, psychology and philosophy there was really no point in learning because they probably just war against the absolute authority of the Bible anyway.  Thus, we set up our wall and remained in ignorance.

When I got into the foster care world I began to ask myself questions such as "what does the Bible really say about reactive attachment disorder or bi-polar disorder?"  Really, nothing.  So at least on one point, we have to look to psychology for our only source of answers, however imperfect.

Since then I have taken the position of Francis Schaeffer and Isaac Newton who believed that we Christians have nothing to fear delving into other disciplines.  There is nothing that is going to pop up and cut off the root of the foundations of Christianity.  We may, at times, have to question our long-standing interpretation of Bible passages (as the church did when Galileo pointed out that the earth really went around the sun).  And we have to rely on God for wisdom in taking a firm stand where the Bible indeed trump science (e.g., the so-called "gay gene" does not mean we have to reinterpreted the Bible in a "gay-friendly way"!)

God is sovereign in all areas of life which means, if we are discerning, we can find remnants of His truth sprinkled in many places.

-Dave

[Oscar]

Dave,

I agree.

Tom

[Mark C.]

Chuck,

  I apologize for misunderstanding what you were trying to say re. this topic re. "The Lucifer Factor."  When I write my responses I often am thinking of those I have talked with in the past and tend to generalize my answers to speak to a wider group (in this case those that believe in the super Christian concept, as well as other similar beliefs).
 
 Of course, there are many reasons why someone might take the position that any true believer "who is walking with God" would not fall prey to the "temptations" involved in this prison experiment.  I am very glad that you have taken the time to post and to share your opinions as I think it helps many to think through these issues that are very relevant to former members of the Assembly.  You have offered strong challenges and it has forced me to really try and understand this issue.

  When I use the word "psychological" I do so in the context of my faith in Christ.  You may think of Sigmund Freud when using the word (or Dr. Phil, etc.) but, consider that Dr. Dobson (clearly an evangelical Christian) is also a "psychologist."  In other words, the meaning of the word "psychology", the study of the human soul, should not be understood always as being the instrument of the world/devil in and of itself.

  Psyche is the Greek word for soul, and this is a very Biblical word, and it simply means to describe who we are as humans.  Honestly facing the facts of who we are, the reality of how our enviornment has shaped us, and our responses to our experiences therein are necessary in order to properly mature in our lives (Christians don't get a pass in this regard either).

  I'm not a "psychologist," nor am I trying to raise psych. experiments to a level that would supplant a view of the soul that the bible teaches----- but, I believe that this particular "Lucifer" experiment only validates what I see re. humans in the bible.

  As Christians we do have grace, and this does make a difference between us and the unsaved, but not to the point of the loss of our human soul.  It's easy to say we would not act like one of these prisoners/guards in such a situation when not put to the test (remember again that the great apostle Peter gave in to human weakness in Gal. 2).

  How do we understand what Paul was saying in Rom. 7?  This was an internal conflict in his soul between an enlightened conscience and a weak will---- he knew what to do, but couldn't do it.  If we are honest we have to admit we have the same struggle and fall very, very short of fulfilling the 1st and 2nd commands of Jesus.

  Deception does have it's root in pride, as you suggested, but it is the kind of pride that believes that ones salvation somehow makes us immune to all the faults and pressures upon the soul.  I think the only real way that we ever learn grace is by failing in just the kind of situation that many of us did via our deception in the Assembly.

  This should be a great encouragement to former members as we have been able to learn things about the depths of our human weakness, but with that we've also learned the exceeding depths of God's loving grace!

                                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

     

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

I recall meeting a young Air Force officer who was on the Psychiatric staff at Offut Air Force Base in Omaha, Nebraska.   Stewart was a young  Jewish man and had become a Christian through the  witnessing of one of his buddies when he was contemplating suicide – yeh, think about it, a psychiatrist contemplating suicide because he couldn’t  come up with answers for his problems and his depression.  He said that as he began to study the scriptures , he began to realize that his psychiatric counseling was unable to get to the root problems confronting his patients.  He then began each initial interview with a new patient by pointing to the open bible on his desk and saying, “The only means I have of giving you some permanent solutions to your problems is through this book.  If you don’t believe that or don’t want to pursue that course, then I will refer you to one of our other doctors, OK?”   There were some reprecussions at first, but eventually, all of the other doctors on the staff began to send Stewart their “basket cases” since he was the only one having any success in treating them.

Then there was a gentleman named Fred who also had been talked out of committing suicide by a brother in our fellowship, who then asked me to meet and counsel him.  I began to meet with Fred and we would have him over for dinner every Wednesday night to just spend time with our family.  He was very high strung and nervous and his hands would shake constantly.   His psychiatrist had him on several medications including Lithium and he said that they seemed to help him.  After several months of interaction and biblical “counseling” with him, I told him that I didn’t believe he needed the medications any longer.  He was somewhat reluctant, saying that he felt that he would suffer mentally should he discontinue.  I gently persisted in my encouragement even though some thought I might be overstepping the bounds by doing so.  It wasn’t until a couple of months later that he came one Wednesday evening and said, “Look at this,” holding his hands out without a trace of a tremor.  He had stopped taking his medications and had suffered no ill effects whatsoever.  He gave the credit to the Lord and we rejoiced together.

YOU WROTE:  Since then I have taken the position of Francis Schaeffer and Isaac Newton who believed that we Christians have nothing to fear delving into other disciplines.  There is nothing that is going to pop up and cut off the root of the foundations of Christianity. 

MY RESPONSE:  I agree, but there is a vast difference between “delving into” these disciplines and embracing them.  Many Christian counselors who have investigated (delved into) them have determined that they are heretical and dangerous. 

YOU WROTE:  We may, at times, have to question our long-standing interpretation of Bible passages (as the church did when Galileo pointed out that the earth really went around the sun).

My response:  Your reference to “the church” exposes your lack of knowledge about Catholicism.

  YOU WROTE:  And we have to rely on God for wisdom in taking a firm stand where the Bible indeed trump science (e.g., the so-called "gay gene" does not mean we have to reinterpreted the Bible in a "gay-friendly way"!)

MY RESPONSE:  Indeed we do and I would repeat what Peter said, “seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence” (2 Peter 1:3)

YOU WROTE:  God is sovereign in all areas of life which means, if we are discerning, we can find remnants of His truth sprinkled in many places.

MY RESPONSE:   I think I understand what you are trying to say, Dave, but we must also be careful in granting credibility to ideas just because there is a “sprinkling” of God’s truth in them.  One of Satan’s deceptions is to use even the scriptures to lend credibility to his lies.  Praise God that He has given us His Spirit to enable us to discern Satan’s deceit and expose it


Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28)

God bless,     Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

[ continued from above]

Man is a tripartite being - body, soul, and spirit.  Psychology deals only with the body and the soul (mind).  To suggest otherwise is folly.  It views morality and truth as being relative to influences such as language, culture or biological makeup.  But truth and morality can only be understood by the spirit of man in communication with the Spirit of God.  For we know that:

“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,  Nor have entered into the heart of man  The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.  For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom  teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.  For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ”
 1 Corinthians 2: 9-13

Admittedly, psychological methods have been able to bring about changes in individuals (mostly children) by behavior modification techniques or by medications.   However, these techniques merely result in responsive  behavior, usually based upon reward or punishment.  Even rats and other animals can be trained to respond in a manner that Is desired.   But with human beings, although the behavior may be modified, the underlying attitude remains unchanged.  A social worker once related to me, “Yes, we can change their behavior, but the old attitudes are still there and can be aroused in times of stress.”   And as regard to the medications, one of the primary purposes is to control, not to cure (i.e., Ridalin).  There is some interesting and enlightening information on sites such as http://cchr.org/index.cfm/22/19521 

 James Dobson effort to incorporate psychology into Christian counseling, has led many Christian apologists  to question some of his ideas.  See:  http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/e-books/JDG-webbk.pdf  and other sites listed under “James Dobson, Psychology.”

 I was very much impressed with Dobson’s   “tough love” concept since it seemed to be scripture based, but I questioned his more recent concept of “self esteem.”  It seems to me that it is a contradiction to biblical instruction given by Peter :“Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time” (1 Peter 5:6).  And  Paul:  "But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24).

We are told: “Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.” (Philippians 2:3)

[continue below]

[Chuck Miller]

Dave,

YOU WROTE:
I would say one of the biggest changes in my thinking in my post-Assembly years is transitioning from the belief of "The Bible has all the answers" position to the "All Truth is God's Truth" position.

Of course, we never really held the first position absolutely.  The Bible doesn't tell us how to change the oil in our car, for instance.  However we assumed that in certain areas such as science, psychology and philosophy there was really no point in learning because they probably just war against the absolute authority of the Bible anyway.  Thus, we set up our wall and remained in ignorance.

When I got into the foster care world I began to ask myself questions such as "what does the Bible really say about reactive attachment disorder or bi-polar disorder?"  Really, nothing.  So at least on one point, we have to look to psychology for our only source of answers, however imperfect.

MY RESPONSE:  I guess I never asked myself questions  concerning what the Bible said about “Reactive Attachment Disorder” or ”Bi-polar Disorder”  (and let’s not forget the parents and teachers favorite, ”Attention Deficit Disorder”) any more than I wondered what the Bible said about Transcendental Meditation, Mind Control, or Out of Body Experiences.  But I can guarantee you one thing, Dave, it’s not because the Lord didn’t foresee the advent of these theories and, therefore, left us unprepared to deal with them.  No, the bible doesn’t tell us how long to soft boil an egg or how to jump start our car, but in regard to everything pertaining to life and godliness,  He has granted us everything we need “through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.” (2 Peter 1:3)
You say that you changed your thinking about the belief from "The Bible has all the answers "position, to the "All Truth is God's Truth" position.  Are you saying that the Bible doesn’t have the answers to the mental problems of this modern age?   Sorry, Dave, the day that I start to believe that, will be that day that  I put this book up on the shelf with my fiction novels and  head for the nearest pub.   I’m not going to try to dissuade you from the psychological milieu that has permeated our culture – I just wish you good luck and may Dr. Phil keep his good hand upon you.   I’m not trying to be facetious, but I am repulsed by the acceptance of this discipline as being adaptable to Christian counseling.   You say, “There is nothing that is going to pop up and cut off the root of the foundations of Christianity.”   Well, let me suggest that psychology attempts to do just that

[continue below]

[Chuck Miller]

YOU WROTE: 

Chuck,
It seems to me that you are claiming that the Holy Spirit intervenes to safeguard us from error....but that he did not do so in your case.  Or if he did, he waited until enough time had passed to do significant damage.

Huh?

My Response:  No, Tom, I believe the Holy Spirit did intervene in that I began to sense an uneasiness about George and his teachings without fully understanding why at the time.  As I said, I was a new immature Christian and could not refute George scripturally.  But it made me wary of unquestioningly accepting whatever George said. I began to check the scriptures to see if what he was saying was true.  Of course, some of George’s teachings were so confusing, I couldn’t always understand the point that he was making.  And some of it was just flowery speech with nothing very profound.  I believe the Lord honored my heart in seeking truth, but did so in a way as to accomplish what He knew I needed in my life. It was all in his perfect timing.   
I don’t yet fully understand that timing, but I know that it has helped me to understand things about the church in a way that I might not have grasped otherwise. 

YOU WROTE:  If God protects us from error...then no deception should be possible.

MY RESPONSE: You tell me, Tom. Can deception be possible with those who are totally committed to Christ? Notice that I said “totally” since I believe that narrows the field considerably.  If one is filled with the Spirit, isn’t He greater than he who is in the world?

YOU WROTE : Joe said the entire church at Galatia was deceived (sic).  Galatia was a region, not a city, so many many people must have been caught up in the error Paul was opposing.  Why didn't the HS intervene?
Or was Paul's letter the intervention?

MY RESPONSE:  Obviously the doctrine was deceiving many, but I’m not sure we can say that the “entire church” was deceived.  The church was in its infancy and like all of the others, false doctrine was being introduced, no doubt, even from among themselves.   They didn’t have the New Testament, but the Holy Spirit was inspiring Paul and others to write about Jesus - His life, death and resurrection, His teachings, and - as was Paul’s letter, a refutation of false doctrine.  Ever form of false doctrine was exposed in the letters that these men wrote to the churches. so that we can identify and reject it.   

YOU WROTE : I don't see much profit in getting caught up in a long wrangle over the validity or non-validity of psychology.  Remember however that there are many subjects the scriptures only address in part, or not at all.

MY RESPONSE:  But it addresses everything we need to know.  What is there that it doesn’t address, Tom?

YOU WROTE : Some psychologists may claim people are not responsible for their actions.  Most, from what I have seen and read, are about helping people understand why they think and do certain things and helping them to take responsibility for their own lives.  They sure enough aren't perfect, but then is there any field of study in which we have perfect understanding? 

MY RESPONSE:  I doubt it, but then is there any other one that transcends cultures and languages and gives us everything we need for life and godliness?  And it’s not just a matter of not being perfect.  It’s also a matter of the value of pursuing it and the dangers involved.

YOU WROTE : I am not about to discard theology merely because theologians don't know everything.  Same thing for psychology.

MY RESPONSE:  Huh?

I don’t discard psychology merely because psychologists don’t know everything. Nor do I discard fortune tellers merely because psychics don’t know everything.  I don’t discard hypnotism merely because hypnotists don’t know everything, nor do I discard transcendental meditation merely because Maharishi Mahesh Yogi doesn’t know everythin.  No, I discard these practices because they open the mind to entrance of the evil one. There are two spirits in this world and we are instructed (warned) to “test the spirits to see if they are of God.”  I fail to recognize the Spirit of God in psychology.  Instead, I see the spirit of antichrist.

There is a vast difference between theology and psychology.  Psychology is defined as the so-called “scientific” study of the human mind and mental states, and of human and animal behavior.  It is practically devoid of absolutes.  In describing psychological “disorders,” we frequently find phrases such as ”doctors do not know,”  “it is unclear,” “wrongly diagnosed,” “many practitioners believe,” and others that indicate a lack of understanding of the root cause of the problems – and therefore, the solutions.
Theology is defined as “the study of religion, especially the Christian faith and God’s relation to the world.”  In contrast the Bible is replete with definitive expressions such as, “we know,”  “I am,” “it is,” “you shall,”  “you shall not,” Surely, Tom, you can distinguish the difference.

God bless,    Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck-----

Psychology is a relatively recent study. Physical medicine in it's infancy was greatly misunderstood---
ex: even in the 1700's they would "bleed" people---thinking that by doing so the person would regain their health. It was a "medical process" at the time, fully accepted and often used. The belief that releasing the blood from the veins was somehow "cleaning" the person of the evil that had entered his bloodstream was actually considered "medicine".  Through time much of this "quackery" was discovered and discarded and true medicine took over. Medicine truly is of God--he has given great minds to discover cures for diseases, and to perform operations that just a hundred years ago were deemed impossible, or "devilish" in nature. You can imagine the reaction of the medical community a couple of hundred years ago,  if you were to say that someone was going to perform a "liver transplant", let alone a heart transplant!!   "This is the devil's work!!" would have been the cry, especially when considering taking one person's heart and transplanting it to another!

So, in the same way, psychology, being a new "science",  is called "the devil's work" by many who don't understand that there really are diseases of the mind. Before this became knowledge, everyone called the insane "demon-possessed". It's true that some mental illness is definitely demon inspired, but there are maladies just as real in the mental realm as they are in the physical realm. To call an appendicitis an "attack of the devil" would be termed foolish nowadays, so to call a schizophrenic "demon-possessed" is most likely just as foolish. We just understand schizophrenia less--perhaps one day it can be treated with more success just as some physical ailments are.

One goes to a medical doctor for all kinds of physical problems. Why wouldn't one consult a psychiatrist or a psychologist for something such as severe depression also?  True--there are far more "quacks" in the psychology world--mainly because it is far less understood. There are still "quacks" in physical medicine also ---but we don't call all physical medicine "of the devil" because of a few quacks----so we shouldn't be labeling all psychology as "not of the Lord", due to the quacks that exist in the field either.

The true field of Psychology is another example of the mercy of the Lord, trying to reach out to hurting and fractured people. Further study and discoveries in this area may lead to the cure and healing of many people. To "demonize" it because of some "quacks" would be a great mistake.

Just my opinion.  I'm sure Tom has a far better response, but I wanted to throw in my two cents on the subject.

[Chuck Miller]

 Hi Joe,

I appreciate your thoughtful response and will share my own thoughts on the points you made.  Pardon me if I ramble a bit.

The correlations that you make between the “sciences“ of “physical medicine” (for lack of a better term) and psychology seem valid enough since they both deal with diagnosing and healing ailments.  But let’s not forget the vast difference that separates the two - one deals with ailments of the body while the other deals with ailments of the mind – and that’s a vast difference, Joe.

Perhaps the most overlooked or neglected areas of both physical medicine and psychology is prevention.  Doctors who treat  bodily ailments  and injuries are concerned about alleviating pain and curing ailments that cause them.  Medications play a large part in their treatment and more often than not, they are prescribing drugs, most of which can produce serious side effects.  I can personally vouch for this.   And of course, the greatest object in many people’s minds is to live longer.  Yet, living in a retirement community, we find that many don’t really have a great deal of purpose in living longer, they just go from day to day, marking time until they die.   Then there are the more affluent ones who retire in luxury and spend most of their time in leisure activities, entertainment and fine dining .   Corporate heads have learned how to cater to their desires, and devise marketing concepts that entice them.   And since debilitating ailments can keep them from these pleasures, they keep their doctors employed trying to maintain their bodily health – health that might have been improved by a different or more moderate life style.  Prevention seemed unnecessary.   Joe, I’m not trying to put down those folks who have prospered in life and now want to reap the “rewards” of their efforts.  I’m just finding that many have “arrived” and find it to be not all they had anticipated. 

Doctors who treat mental ailments are concerned with curing them by means of counseling and medication.  Medications also play a large part in the treatment of those with psychological “disorders.” And , in like manner,  the side effects can be unpleasant and even dangerous.  Psychologists and psychiatrists are unable to understand that the basic problems with most children today is that they have not been raised in accordance with biblical instruction.   Permissive parents (or single-parents) have allowed their children to train them up in the way they should go, with the dire consequences we are witnessing today.  And adults without Christ have no effective means to deal with their trials and anxieties.   
Instead of advocating or supporting psychological solutions to the problems that plague this country’s citizens, we should be working on prevention of these problems by helping them to come to know Jesus Christ .  I do not believe that any true follower of Christ can suffer mental problems.  Now, before you start your refutation of my assertion, read it carefully – I do not say that I don’t believe that any “Christian” can suffer mental problems – I said any “follower of Christ.”  If you don’t recognize that there is a distinction, then I’ll take that up in another post.  Let me offer jus t one case-in-point to illustrate what I mean.  Would a follower of Christ divorce their spouse for any other reason than adultery?

The “experts” were quick to tell us why a young Korean boy at Virginia Tech went berserk and randomly shot classmates and teachers .  One report read:

 Television analysts have Cho deconstructed very quickly: “He's a madman, he's a psychopath, a schizophrenic, a psychotic—or maybe just an angry depressive.” Experts have rendered definitive diagnoses on every network—and they are wildly contradictory. The Today show alone has made a grand tour through the diagnostic manual. Thursday morning Matt Lauer proclaimed Cho "clearly a psychotic individual." Lauer described psychosis as an evolution from his previous diagnosis of depression. "We should make the differentiation there," Dr. Lauer advised.

Well, let me give you my expert opinion.  This young man was living in a spiritual vacuum and had no concept of good and evil.  He was influenced and under the power of the father of lies – Satan.  His only salvation would to have been to have come to have known Jesus Christ as His Savior.  But you won’t hear the ”experts” refer to any such suggestion.

 I haven’t seen Michael Moore’s documentary “Bowling for Columbine” but I will wager that there was very little, if any, reference to Rachel Scott, who refused to deny her God and was willing to die for it.   Nor will you hear about the tremendous influence for good that Rachel’s life and death had upon her friends. 

As a nation, the U.S. has turned away from God.  Only a spiritual revival can save it from His wrath.   
So, Joe, when you say, - “In the same way, psychology, being a new "science",  is called "the devil's work" by many who don't understand that there really are diseases of the mind.”  - I don’t deny that there are “diseases” of the mind (or what they now call, “disorders”)  -  I just don’t see that psychology has been able to discover either the causes, the remedy,  or the means of prevention. 
Jesus said,

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.                Matthew 11:28-29


God bless,     Chuck

[moonflower2]

Hi Chuck,

I hope you don't mind that I add a few things to your conversation here.

I agree with what you are saying here, but not all followers of Christ can help someone with a "disordered" mind, nor is just a blanket diagnosis of "sin" the solution for a "disordered" mind.

Psychology has been able to identify some disorders and that in itself has been a help to many, whether they are followers of Christ or not.

Post partum depression, and certain forms of schizophrenia are caused by physical changes in the body that affect the mind. They are not a result of the sin of the individual afflicted by them. I believe you can be a follower of of Christ when you are in those states, but to say that a follower of Christ will not be afflicted by them, is just plain not true and is one of the reasons Christians (followers of Christ included) have gone to psychiatrists for help; they are helped without the infliction of the salve (sp?) of guilt that other Christians (and/or followers of Christ) have heaped upon them.

The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.

I think that in some way this issue may come under "common grace".

Moonflower

[Oscar]

Chuck,

A couple of comments on your recent posts:

1.

YOU WROTE : I don't see much profit in getting caught up in a long wrangle over the validity or non-validity of psychology.  Remember however that there are many subjects the scriptures only address in part, or not at all.

MY RESPONSE:  But it addresses everything we need to know.  What is there that it doesn’t address, Tom?

Yes it does address everything we need to know...about salvation.  But there is a whole lot about physiology, body chemistry, psychology, biology, anatomy, infection, on and on just in the field of medicine. The scriptures don't tell us about this.  Not to mention every other field of science.

2.

I do not believe that any true follower of Christ can suffer mental problems.  Now, before you start your refutation of my assertion, read it carefully – I do not say that I don’t believe that any “Christian” can suffer mental problems – I said any “follower of Christ.”  If you don’t recognize that there is a distinction, then I’ll take that up in another post.

Chuck, this is so very, very wrong...and so very, very harmful.  For example, I know two women who are, and have been sincere followers and servants of Christ.  One was a full time servant with her husband for many years.  I know of nothing in their lives that would indicate to me that they are not "true" followers of Christ.  Yet they both have suffered with debilitating bouts of depression all their adult lives.  It has been partially controlled through medication, but as they age and their body chemistry changes, what once worked stops working.  Menopause seems to be a factor too.

What you are saying is that their problem has its root in sin. Yet they have struggled with this for years, crying out to God to show them what their sin is so they can repent and be freed from this bondage.  How may decades must they wait?

Do you realize what your attitude, (which is shared by many well-meaning but ignorant Christians), means to them?  They are sentenced to the living hell of being exposed to the condemnation of self-righteous Job's counsellors in the Church.  These folks come armed with verses such as "Come unto me...and I will give you rest". 

Yes, Chuck, rest from striving to find peace with God through works and rituals.  But not rest from everything in life!!! 

These women, as well as at least millions of other people need help and understanding.  Not stones from those who believe themselves more spiritual.

Tom Maddux

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

There are Christians who are not following the commandments of Christ .  Would you say they are followers of Christ?   He says to them, “Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46).  Some of these suffered sickness and even death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-31).  Were they believers?  I find nothing to indicate they weren’t.  We all know Christians who have illnesses and diseases.  Do I believe that it indicates that they are not followers of Christ.
No.  Please read that again so that you don’t misunderstand.

We had a dear young Christian friend who was dying of cancer.  In fact, I would call her a follower of Christ.  In the months prior to her death she became a living testimony for the love of Christ and touched the hearts of doctors, nurses, friends and relatives by her joy in the expectation of being with her blessed Lord. And let me tell you something - if that joy is there you can’t hide it – if it’s not there you can’t fake it.

I had another friend in a nursing home.  He was deaf, practically blind, and bed-ridden.  He wanted to go to be with the Lord.  I prayed that the Lord would take him home.  He became rather cantankerous and lingered for months before passing away.  I don’t judge why the Lord kept him.  I don’t judge his spiritual condition.

I will concede that I don’t always know or understand the Lord’s will for the life of another.  Nor do I know the heart of those who are believers.  But if you will try to convince me that a true follower of Christ can suffer a mental illness, I cannot agree.  For you are saying that even if I am a follower of Christ, I am powerless against forces that could effect my mind (even for evil) and that I cannot control them, and that God would allows this to happen.  That is not the Christ I know. 

YOU WROTE: Psychology has been able to identify some disorders and that in itself has been a help to many, whether they are followers of Christ or not.

MY RESPONSE:  Well good for them.  But of what profit is it unless they can help the spiritual disorder?

YOU WROTE:  Post partum depression, and certain forms of schizophrenia are caused by physical changes in the body that affect the mind. They are not a result of the sin of the individual afflicted by them.

MY RESPONSE:  Since psychology is called a science, perhaps you wouldn’t mind giving me scientific proof of your assertion.”   On the “Schizophrenia.com” site, we find this bit of scientific jargon

Making a Diagnosis

It is important to rule out other illnesses, as sometimes people suffer severe mental symptoms or even psychosis due to undetected underlying medical conditions. For this reason, a medical history should be taken and a physical examination and laboratory tests should be done to rule out other possible causes of the symptoms before concluding that a person has schizophrenia. In addition, since commonly abused drugs may cause symptoms resembling schizophrenia, blood or urine samples from the person can be tested at hospitals or physicians’ offices for the presence of these drugs.
At times, it is difficult to tell one mental disorder from another. For instance, some people with symptoms of schizophrenia exhibit prolonged extremes of elated or depressed mood, and it is important to determine whether such a patient has schizophrenia or actually has a manic-depressive (or bipolar) disorder or major depressive disorder. Persons whose symptoms cannot be clearly categorized are sometimes diagnosed as having a “schizoaffective disorder.”

YOU WROTE:  Post partum depression, and certain forms of schizophrenia are caused by physical changes in the body that affect the mind. They are not a result of the sin of the individual afflicted by them. I believe you can be a follower of of Christ when you are in those states, but to say that a follower of Christ will not be afflicted by them, is just plain not true and is one of the reasons Christians (followers of Christ included) have gone to psychiatrists for help; they are helped without the infliction of the salve (sp?) of guilt that other Christians (and/or followers of Christ) have heaped upon them.

MY RESPONSE:  Both you and Tom imply that I am inflicting guilt on those who suffer from mental disorders.  In the first place, Moonflower, you don’t seem to think that the “guilt” of not accepting what Jesus offered to them, is very serious and can be remedied by a psychiatrist, so we have no common ground of reference. 
I will address Tom’s accusation in a separate post.

And then, of course,     

YOU WROTE:  The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.

MY RESPONSE:  You have my response above.  I shall pray that you receive it in the spirit in which it is given.

YOU WROTE: I think that in some way this issue may come under "common grace".

MY RESPONSE: Common grace?  Is this another of your theological concepts, or are you referring to that of James Boice?  In any event, you don’t need to explain it.

In His love,    Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Dear Moonflower,

At the end of your last post you wrote:

The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.

MY RESPONSE:  I thank you for clarifying where you are coming from.  You should be commended for having discovered a “remedy” for what Jesus called the “unforgivable sin.”  I would also say that your blasé attitude toward the enormity of what He did for a sinful world demonstrates your complete ignorance of the grace and mercy of our heavenly Father.  If this sounds harsh, it is meant to, since I hope it will cause you to seek to fathom the dreadful consequences of our condemnation and come to understand and appropriate the mercy of God in His means for our  justification.  Paul’s epistle to the Romans would be a good place to start since your statement raises doubts in my mind as to whether you, yourself “have accepted what Christ has offered.”   

I also notice that Tom made no reference to your post, so I thought I would wait to see if there were any responses to it from him or from any of the others before I posted my own.  I would have assumed that either he or one of the other defendants of psychology would have made an attempt to correct your outrageously shallow perception of salvation.  Perhaps they were as shocked as I and too dumbfounded to respond.  I’m speculating, of course, that they disagree as vehemently as I.

In view of your above stated conclusion it seems somewhat useless to pursue further discussion with you, but I will offer my response in the event that someone else might have similar concerns about psychology.

YOU WROTE:
   
Hi Chuck,

I hope you don't mind that I add a few things to your conversation here.

I agree with what you are saying here, but not all followers of Christ can help someone with a "disordered" mind, nor is just a blanket diagnosis of "sin" the solution for a "disordered" mind.

MY RESPONSE:  Please hear what I am saying. I did not say that all followers of Christ can help someone with a disordered mind, nor did I say that one who is not a “follower of Christ” is a sinner. 
I can attest to the fact that I was able to help a man with a disordered mind – not because of any special ability on my part, but simply by befriending him and assuring him that He was a child of God and that Jesus would lift his burdens from him.  That’s what Jesus said.  I believe it.  He believed it.  Jesus did it.
It would be great to say that the story had a happy ending, but it doesn’t. 

After being freed from his dependence on drugs, the man continued to consult with his psychiatrist and receive the medication he prescribed.  When I questioned him about it he said that if he discontinued his counseling, he would probably lose his Social Security disability benefits and would have to go to work. He refused to acknowledge that this was dishonest and contrary to the will of God and finally discontinued our relationship.

I can also attest to the fact that I was unable (as far as I know) to help a man who was mentally disturbed - he claimed he was Jesus Christ.   He was in the psych ward at a local hospital.   I was convinced that he was demon possessed, but being very young in the Lord, I didn’t feel prepared to try to exorcise the demon.  Perhaps I should have, but the littleness of my faith kept me from trying. (Matthew 17:14-20).

[continue below]

[Mark C.]

[continued from above]

I had another friend in a nursing home.  He was deaf, practically blind, and bed-ridden.  He wanted to go to be with the Lord.  I prayed that the Lord would take him home.  He became rather cantankerous and lingered for months before passing away.  I don’t judge why the Lord kept him.  I don’t judge his spiritual condition.

I will concede that I don’t always know or understand the Lord’s will for the life of another.  Nor do I know the heart of those who are believers.  But if you will try to convince me that a true follower of Christ can suffer a mental illness, I cannot agree.  For you are saying that even if I am a follower of Christ, I am powerless against forces that could effect my mind (even for evil) and that I cannot control them, and that God would allows this to happen.  That is not the Christ I know. 

In His love,    Chuck

Chuck,

 Well, no one can accuse you of pulling your punches re. your strongly held opinions.  There's a lot I would like to say here, but I am going to try and narrow my answer to addressing the point above.

  First:  I am not a "defender of psychology" nor do I believe that this science/practice is beyond criticism. 2nd: I would agree that salvation of the soul is of eternal value while health of the soul is temporal (something that Moon. agreed with you on---so, I don't understand why you took off on her with such vehemence).  However, our expression of that salvation we have is demonstrated in our human frames and given in a human context (not a theological concept).

  You say that "I don't judge" quite often above, but your posting above makes all kinds of assumptions that are shared from the perspective of someone who considers himself a higher grade of believer-- "a true follower of Jesus Christ"vs. those Christians who aren't living up to your standards.  How would you judge your own life before God Chuck?  If "true followers" are those who are perfectly keeping the commands of God---- do you do so?

  Paul in Galatians answered those who arrogantly called themselves "the spiritual" by using a bit of sarcasm in an effort to extinguish this idea of "nominal believers" and "true followers": ----if someone is caught in a sin restore him gently.  But watch yourself, or you may be tempted.  Carry each others burdens , and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.  If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.  Gal. 6:1-4"

   First:  Paul expected that any believer could be "caught in a sin" and that other believers had an obligation to "restore him."  This process must have been more than just rebuke or scripture quoting as he doesn't say, "preach to them and if they don't listen let them wallow in their fallen state."  The "spiritual one" was to "restore" and was to use "gentleness" in that process.

    2nd:  Paul is making the point that we all have "burdens to bear" and that means that Christ has not taken them all away from us.  Furthermore, we are to "lift" that person who has fallen under the weight of their own human failure vs. just praying for them---- in other words there is some kind of action where we make that persons problem ours and feel the weight of it.

        3rd: Paul is also saying here that without an understanding that we share the same human fraility with our brethren (class distinctions) we will lack the one essential ingredient that can make us sympathetic and truly helpful to those in need (Christ's law of love).

               Now, human suffering in the soul, whether you want to call it mental illness or something else, is real and a real burden for that person to bear.  Demanding a believer so burdened to somehow "get over it" via an exhortation does not provide the lifting of that burden and it most certainly will not restore.  The view that we should restore by saying "this is your fault for true followers don't have these problems" is contra grace and contra the meaning of "bearing one anothers burdens". 

    Paul sought the Lord for "a weakness" he had and the Lord told him, no "for my grace is sufficient for you for it is perfected in weakness."  It is the acknowledgement that we are very human and do indeed have that heavy weight with us as long as we're in the body.  Those who think themselves too spiritual to experience problems in the soul are worse off than those who are clearly suffering from them.

                                                              In His love?   May it always be so.   God Bless,  Mark C.

           

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

I was away from the computer over the weekend and just read Moonflower's post, and your response, along with the other posts on the board. I have to say I am not a strong supporter of psychology for every mental complaint, but I do see it's place in the field of medicine. There are people that can be truly helped by a good psychologist.

I want to say that I believe you have greatly misunderstood what Moonflower is saying. It is a reality that not everyone will accept Christ---and there are many that the Lord will have to "work on" for some  time before they accept the message(many of us did not immediately accept the Gospel and can remember being "preached to" and having tracts handed to us etc. before we finally accepted Christ).  I think what Moonflower is saying, is that the Lord is SO VERY MERCIFUL that he wants to reach out and help in any way possible a suffering humanity. His love for the world is towards ALL---but especially towards those who believe. Though there are those who would try to have us believe that God does not care for, or hear the prayers of the unsaved, it is absolutely untrue, as God will use any means possible to reach men, whether through his judgment or through his great mercy.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe (1 Tim. 4:10)

He is the savior of "all men" especially those that believe. How is he the savior of all men, if not all believe?
This verse has been misinterpreted by those who think ALL men will be saved. The verse is not saying that (though the Bible does say that it is God's desire that all men should be saved-- 1 Tim 2:1)---but it is saying that God cares deeply for all men on earth. There are men whom the Lord wants to be saved who will never receive him---but he still works to cure, heal and comfort them while they are on earth.  "He makes the rain to fall on the just, and on the unjust". Moonflower is not cheapening Grace, or Jesus' death on the cross by any means----Moonflower is stating that God is merciful to ALL--and if psychology is a means to help someone in severe mental pain, he has provided it---whether the person is a Christian or not!!

Moonflower stated:
The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.

I think that in some way this issue may come under "common grace".

The word "common" here is not referring to the value of the death of Christ, but the term used to refer to the grace that God shows to ALL men while they are on earth. It is this grace which provides the doctors, surgeons, psychologists, etc. to help alleviate much of the pain in the world. Does God care for the avowed atheist? Yes he does---the wheat and the tares grow together in the ground on this earth, and they both receive the same sunshine and the same rain---they both receive all the benefits and blessings of God. There is a chance the avowed atheist may become a Christian, but if not, he will face the consequences in eternity. But while he lives on the earth he receives the same gracious benefits God provides for all. I believe this may be what Moonflower was saying. This is a term called "common Grace"--the graciousness of the Lord towards all men.

It's too bad that we as Christians cannot be more like psychologists in one particular way: To take the time to really listen to someone who is suffering, rather than quote verses and think that this will take care of everything. Often, the person suffering mental anguish just needs someone to talk to who is understanding and shows some mercy---and this is why there are so many psychologists--some people literally have to pay someone to listen to them--and that is a real shame.