The Lucifer Factor

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

YOU WROTE:  Do you realize what your attitude, (which is shared by many well-meaning but ignorant Christians), means to them?  They are sentenced to
the living hell of being exposed to the condemnation of self-righteous Job's counsellors in the Church.  These folks come armed with verses such as "Come
unto me...and I will give you rest". 

MY RESPONSE:  Excuse me, Tom, but wasn’t it Jesus who came “armed” with that promise?  Should He have said, “Come unto Me and I will give you rest. – unless you have one of those disorders that I am not familiar with?” 

Aso, your indignation sounds somewhat disingenuous in light of the relationship you had with George that afforded you ample opportunity to rebuke him for his domineering tactics and badgering of those who opposed him. Anyway, I’m not intimidated by your accusation because when I rarely do offer counsel to another believer, I don’t do it in the manner you suggest. 

One of the most common problems that Christians seem to encounter is depression.  There are times when I have experienced depression in my own life and in the process have made some helpful discoveries. 
My depression always seemed to emanate from a feeling that God had abandoned me, and there is nothing worse than feeling that God is not concerned about your life or your welfare.  Tom’s example of the two women is typical.  It wasn’t until I learned to look upon these times as that of opportunity, that I began to understand depression.  The prayer from Psalm 139:23-24 - “Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me and know my anxious thoughts; and see if there be any hurtful way in me; and lead me in the everlasting way” – that prayer – and the Lord’s answer to it – has led to a deeper understanding of Him and of myself through His caring discipline.  I could best illustrate this through experiences that have happened in my life; experiences that I treasure, although, at the time, they were painful.  For through them, the faithfulness of the Lord’s promises became a glorious reality.
Like most Christians, if anyone were to ask me if I were one of His followers, I would say, “Yes, I try to follow Him.”   Yet, how often does He put me in situations where He shows me how weak I am and where my heart really is.  It is not pleasant.   And when I realize that He is disciplining me, I try to ascertain what it is that He is trying to teach me, because it is not always immediately apparent.  And other times, it becomes all too obvious.  But just knowing that He cares enough to continue to train me in His ways gives me the all of the assurance I need to know that He loves Me and  is concerned about my life and my spiritual welfare .

I used to feel a great deal of empathy for Christian brothers and sisters who were going through difficult times and would pray with them and for them that God would deliver them from their dilemma.  Anymore, because I know that the Lord uses situations to try to teach us something - all designed to draw us closer to Him - I now pray that they will humble themselves before Him and seek to understand what He is trying to teach them.  He most often does this by taking us through adversity rather than delivering us from it, and He tells us that, “All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness” (Hebrews 12:11).  And there have been times when I didn’t immediately respond to that training, yet in His forbearance and mercy, He persists and doesn’t give up on me.  Praise His unfathomable kindness.
YOU WROTE: Yes, Chuck, rest from striving to find peace with God through works and rituals.  But not rest from everything in life!!! 

MY RESPONSE:  Good advice, Tom.  At my age I am unable to do some things that I would like to, but I don’t intend to wind up just marking time waiting to die.   The Lord has given me opportunities to minister to some folks here at the facility and the BB exchanges help me to examine and express my beliefs and have them scrutinized by yourself and others.  I have changed some of my beliefs from time to time during the past 30 years, and don’t mind having them challenged or being corrected when I see that I am in error.  I am also writing my biography for my grandchildren, sharing some of the wondrous things the Lord has done in our lives that become clearer in retrospect.

YOU WROTE:   These women, as well as at least millions of other people need help and understanding.  Not stones from those who believe themselves more spiritual.

MY RESPONSE:  I agree and the only place I know to find permanent help is in the arms of our loving Savior.

God bless,   Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

YOU WROTE : I don't see much profit in getting caught up in a long wrangle over the validity or non-validity of psychology.  Remember however that there are many subjects the scriptures only address in part, or not at all.

MY RESPONSE:  But it addresses everything we need to know.  What is there that it doesn’t address, Tom?

YOU WROTE:  Yes it does address everything we need to know...about salvation.  But there is a whole lot about physiology, body chemistry, psychology, biology, anatomy, infection, on and on just in the field of medicine. The scriptures don't tell us about this.  Not to mention every other field of science.

MY RESPONSE:  Quite true, and there is nothing wrong with some of these pursuits, but don’t confuse psychology with science.  Read the manuals and you will find that they admit their ignorance and rely for the most part on trial and error when it comes to medications, and on their own particular speculation concerning causes and cures.  And most importantly, they are not dealing with physical absolutes (I;e;, the Law of Gravity,  The Laws of Thermodynamics, Chemical Analysis, etc.), they are dealing with the mind and guessing as to how it has, does, and will function under certain circumstances.

I do not believe that any true follower of Christ can suffer mental problems.  Now, before you start your refutation of my assertion, read it carefully – I do not say that I don’t believe that any “Christian” can suffer mental problems – I said any “follower of Christ.”  If you don’t recognize that there is a distinction, then I’ll take that up in another post.

YOU WROTE:  Chuck, this is so very, very wrong...and so very, very harmful.  For example, I know two women who are, and have been sincere followers and servants of Christ.  One was a full time servant with her husband for many years.  I know of nothing in their lives that would indicate to me that they are not "true" followers of Christ.  Yet they both have suffered with debilitating bouts of depression all their adult lives.  It has been partially controlled through medication, but as they age and their body chemistry changes, what once worked stops working.  Menopause seems to be a factor too.
 
MY RESPONSE:  No, I am not saying that their problem has its root in sin. I don’t know the women and will not judge them.  What you are saying is that these devout Christian women are suffering from debilitating bouts of depression, have cried out to the Lord who promises rest to those who come to Him, but He has ignored their plea.  Something wrong here, Tom. 

I can understand why God does not always answer pleas for physical healing, I don’t recall that He ever promised that He would.   But if you are going to try to convince me that we can’t rely on His promise to give rest to those who come to Him, then maybe we should wonder about His promise to give us eternal life. 

Both you and the utterly confused, Moonflower, seem determined to accuse me of branding as “sinners,” those who are not “followers” of Christ.  Let me point out the distinction.

I think we would all admit that there are Christians who are weak in their faith, or slothful in their service to Christ.  Christians? Yes,  but perhaps lacking in the diligence of which Peter speaks in his second letter (2 Peter 1:5-11).  Or they may be the foolish one who build their house upon the sand (Matthew 7:26).  Or the one who knew His master’s will but did not act in accord with his will (Luke 12:47). 

Jesus said,”If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; ( John 8:31).  Notice what follows the qualifier “if” and notice the adjective “truly.”  A disciple, then, would be what I call a follower of Christ.  It would behoove us, then, to ascertain what Jesus means when He admonishes us to “continue” in His word.   

[continue below]

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

You all seem to think that my description of one who is a follower of Christ as being one who has “arrived” in their Christian walk. Or like Mark who erroneously assumes that I believe that”true followers" are those who are perfectly keeping the commands of God.  He wrote:

You [Chuck] say that "I don't judge" quite often, but your posting makes all kinds of assumptions that are shared from the perspective of someone who considers himself a higher grade of believer-- "a true follower of Jesus Christ"vs. those Christians who aren't living up to your standards.  How would you judge your own life before God Chuck?  If "true followers" are those who are perfectly keeping the commands of God---- do you do so?

MY RESPONSE:  They are not “my standards,” Mark, they are His standards.  I didn’t make them.  He did.  With His enabling grace, I try to live by them and encourage others to do so.  I don’t try to judge my own life or the life of others – unless it is an unrepentant sinner in the body.   Paul tells us that we are to judge them. (1 Corinthians5:12),
As for judging my own life before God, I try not to engage in such foolishness. Our own heart will deceive us (Jeremiah 17:9) and I ask Him to search my heart, and reveal to me my hurtful ways and lead me in the everlasting way (Psalm 139:23-24).

 Now, allow me to elaborate.and clarify what I mean by “a follower of Christ” .
 
Followers of Christ are ones who seek to build their house upon a rock (Matthew 7:25 ), ones who are applying diligence in seeking to attain the qualities of which Peter speaks in his second letter (2 Peter 1:5-11). ).  They are those who “continue in His word” (John8:31), or they are seeking to be the “faithful  and sensible stewards”  of Luke 12:47, or the ones who seek to bear fruit (Matthew 13:23), and yes, Tom, the ones who seek to ”overcome” (Revelation 2 and 3).  Are they perfect?  By no means, but like David, their heart is for the Lord.  Do they stumble occasionally?  Most certainly.  Do thy never sin?  Certainly not.   Do they suffer the discipline of Christ?  Most assuredly. 

This is what I believe.

So please don’t try to make me out to be a pompous, self-righteous, “better than thou,”  jackass who thinks he is better than you.   And please don’t say we can’t strive to be one of the above.   Would I be so stupid and naïve to think that I have” arrived” when not even Paul would make such a declaration until he was about to go to be with the Lord.   Only then, Paul would say:
”I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing”
                                                                                    2 Timothy 4:7-8

May we be counted among those who have loved his appearing. 

God bless,  Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

Mark,

The apostle John wrote:

If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
                              1 John 5:9-12

When someone hears the gospel, and the Holy Spirit witnesses to their spirit as to who Jesus is and what He came to do – to reject that, is unforgiveable. The Holy Spirit doesn’t have to ”work on” them, as if they are trying to figure out a geometry equation, for we read:

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12).

There is power in the word of God that transcends the intellect and penetrates to the very depths of the spirit.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that someone who has heard the gospel and not responded, has rejected the message. It is all in God’s perfect time for that individual and if, at that time, there was not the enlightening by the Holy Spirit and he does not respond, he merely rejects the testimony of man and he makes man a liar.  But if, at that time, the Holy Spirit does, in fact,  bear witness to that individual and he rejects it; then he makes God a liar.  I believe this is the unpardonable sin. 

 On a 2/8/04 post, Moonflower wrote:  “There are unsaved people who have lived lives as kind, loving and generous people, but won't be in heaven because they rejected the One who died for them.”  I concur.

But then on her July 07, 2007 post, she wrote:  “The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.”

When she says, “those who do not accept what Christ has offered,”  I believe that she is indicating that they have been enlightened, but have rejected the gift. The rest of her statement bears this out.  She then proceeds to belittle the gospel and elevates psychology to the status of a “remedy.”  So then, we are to believe that those who have rejected the Savior who died for them, can have their conscience salved by some sympathetic psychologist who will help them to “get along in this world.”
Yes, Mark, I took off on Moonflower with vehemence for this tragic bit of nonsense and am somewhat surprised and disappointed that you tried to bail her out with your explanation of what you think she meant.  I’m not trying to mock her, but I would like to shock her into the realization that she has trivialized the condemnation of unbelieving sinners and its horrendous consequences.
Then Joe comes to her defense also, saying, ”I think what Moonflower is saying is that the Lord is SO VERY MERCIFUL that he wants to reach out and help in any way possible a suffering humanity.”   
Well, Joe, God has already reached out in the only “possible way” that He could help a suffering humanity - by having His Son die to make atonement for our sins.  Nothing else satisfies His justice.   Paul wrote of Jesus”

“whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:25-27).

If you are suggesting that God has given us psychology in order to alleviate human suffering, I’m not buying it.  I believe that Satan has given us psychology in order to relieve us of our guilt and responsibility for our deeds of the flesh, to give us self-esteem instead of esteem for Christ. 

[continued  below]

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

It was actually me who said that the Holy Spirit has to "work on" some people, not Mark. That was
a poor choice of words. What I meant to say is that not everyone immediately accepts Christ upon
hearing the message for the first time. Sometimes the Spirit knocks several times on the door of some-
one's heart before they open---that's all I meant. And without going into doctrinal arguments I realize
that anyone receiving Christ is a miracle of God.

However, you did not respond to the verses "He makes his rain to fall on the just and on the unjust" or that he is
"the savior of ALL men, especially those that believe". You are entitled to your opinion Chuck regarding psychology, and don't have to "buy" the suggestion that God is thereby assuaging human suffering.  I just have to say that medicine has helped countless millions of people who do not believe in Jesus Christ (many of them may come to receive him one day who knows?), and he did not put it on the earth only to help Christians.  There is a common Grace that God does show to ALL men on the earth---he states this in the Bible---once again "He makes his rain to fall on the just and on the unjust"---the very same rain---the very same blessings. This is a Biblical fact.

Would this same God who is merciful to millions concerning their physical ailments, also want to help those with mental ailments also?  I believe he would.

You said:

Then Joe comes to her defense also, saying, ”I think what Moonflower is saying is that the Lord is SO VERY MERCIFUL that he wants to reach out and help in any way possible a suffering humanity.”   
Well, Joe, God has already reached out in the only “possible way” that He could help a suffering humanity - by having His Son die to make atonement for our sins.  Nothing else satisfies His justice.

Chuck---you are incorrect.  God did make the ultimate sacrifice of his Son to pay for man's sins. There is no denying this.  But this is not the only "possible way" that God can help a suffering humanity. There are suffering African children NOW who need treatment for something as simple as diarrhea, whom God has provided "physical help" for. There are those whom God knows will not accept him at the moment, whom he still helps in a physical manner because of his great love for them.  There are also those suffering with mental illnesses, afflictions, and mental pain, who are not Christians---but God loves them.

Chuck---you are correct--nothing will satisfy the Justice of God for sin but the death of Jesus Christ. But what of present suffering going on right now in front of our eyes?

There is a verse in James that says "if one of you sees your neighbor without food or clothing and says 'go be ye warmed and filled' without helping them, what does it profit?" The same applies here. Do we see a mentally suffering person and simply preach at them? Is that what Jesus would do? Would Jesus see a man in deep suffering and only make speeches? No---he would heal him.  Well, I don't personally have the gift of healing---neither do most Christians, and all the "preaching" I do towards a person in severe depression is not going to alleviate their problem. So what is the answer? God has provided intelligent men, trained in psychology, who might be able to help this person. Do I say "Go--be ye warmed and filled" or do I take them to a psychologist that God has provided for that very purpose?

God loves everyone---on this present earth he provides the same sun, rain, vegetation, etc. etc. for the evil and the good. He says so in the Scriptures. His ultimate desire is the salvation of ALL souls, and for this he paid the ultimate price---but he also knows many will not receive him and will pay the price in eternity. But while they are on earth he provides all the mercy possible in hopes they will turn to Him. As I mentioned before, the wheat and the tares grow together on the earth--and God has provided the very best for both of them--he says so. They grow in the same field, with the same nutrients, and the same sun and water.

You said:
If you are suggesting that God has given us psychology in order to alleviate human suffering, I’m not buying it.  I believe that Satan has given us psychology in order to relieve us of our guilt and responsibility for our deeds of the flesh, to give us self-esteem instead of esteem for Christ.

Chuck---that is rather a bold statement to make don't you think? If God has given the world good psychologists to alleviate mental suffering, you are attributing a gift of God to Satan. (God is merciful though and I think He knows where you are coming from--but it is wrong to make a blanket statement like that not knowing the true will of the Lord regarding Psychology). A few hundred years ago men called Galileo of the devil, and held extreme beliefs about medicine--and yet we know Galileo was right, and that medicine has helped millions upon millions of people----and many millions of these people are not Christians. But God shows his mercy to ALL while they are upon the earth.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. (1 Cor. 9:22)  Paul said this knowing that all mean will not receive the same message the same way.  We should remember that many of the people who Jesus healed received him AFTER they had been helped or healed. (The Gadarene, the blind man, the woman at the well). Is it possible that someone can be brought to the Lord from mental healing--as much as someone who is physically healed may turn to Christ?  God uses every means possible to save souls---he becomes all things to all men----could he use psychology in that rare case to heal and lead someone to Christ? With God ALL things are possible.

[Mark C.]

Chuck,

  I think we have strayed from the original topic re. the psychology experiment called "the Lucifer Factor" done up in Stanford and so I am not going to try and give a point by point response at this time.  Is all psychology of the Devil?  How about psychologists who try to understand and treat Alzheimers, Downs syndrome, retardation, senility, etc.?  The "friend" that you had Chuck who "just wanted to die"; could he have been in this state because of some kind of interaction between illness (regular ol' physical type stuff), medication he was taking, or because of some emotional pain due to the loss of a spouse?  In the experiment at Stanford this was a controlled situation that was observed.  These humans, including those running the experiment, were surprised at what they discovered about how people react in a prison situation.

  Okay, some of us see a comparable real life expression of this in our involvement in the Assembly.  Then we can read documented cases in books like, "Toxic Faith, Churches That Abuse, The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse, etc."  The Bible itself clearly warns against abusing fellow believers (beating of the men servants, harming the little ones, etc.) and placing this warning in the context of harshly using ones position of authority to control, manipulate, and dominate another disciple of Christ.

  The last paragraph shows that this experiment is demonstrable among professed followers of Jesus.  I have mentioned to you before (which I don't recall your response to) the fact that the Apostle Peter fell victim to his fear of the big guns from Jerusalem not accepting him (Gal 2) and this fear was the same kind of psychological pressure that many of us felt in the Assembly.

  Now we can argue that "well none of the examples given are of true believers", and that may explain some of it, but with Peter I think it would be safe to say that he was truly saved and a follower of Jesus.  If we shrink the population of the "truly spiritual," who are immune from reacting as the experimenters did, those in the Assembly, etc., I would venture to say that I have never met a true follower of Jesus as yet.

  If Tom doesn't mind I will use him as an example.  You had some very unkind comments to make re. how Tom supported GG during his time with the group, and I know for certain that Tom is very, very sorry now(just as I am, and I'm sure Peter is for his failings in Gal. 2).  I knew Tom pretty well back in those days.  I rode back and forth with him for years to Fullerton from the Valley, and attended upteen million meetings with him.

  Tom was (and still is) a serious follower of Jesus Christ.  He was not looking for any kind of self gain, and was constantly anguished over how to truly follow Christ and to do the will of God.  Why did God allow this to happen?  How could a true follower ever buy into such a fraud as GG created?  How could God just seem to allow this kind of real life "experiment" to twist such a good desire into a decidedly evil end?

  True followers of Jesus are also made, but that making is not instant.   Furthermore, we are not made into spirit beings, but humans who have been given the Spirit of God.  Tom had to learn through this trial something he couldn't any other way.  Inner strength via the Spirit comes when we are weak vs. when we are confident that we have obtained a stregth via ones true following.  Regular human life supplies ample opportunity for us to admit to our needy human condition, or we can just try and deny it (an unhealthy psychological reaction).

  God became flesh in Jesus Christ.  Jesus understood psychology (how we think, feel, how sin tempts us, how weak human character can be, how easily we can be manipulated by social pressures, etc.)  Yes, he understood how Satan could manipulate us too.  True, some are more sensitive than others to certain kinds of pressure and Paul reminds us to take care of those like this and also goes on to state that those that we think are the least spirtually profitable are "more necessary."  What did Paul mean by "the feeble minded" and our need to support them btw?"

  For those with strong wills, able to withstand emotional suffering better than most, or less likely to succumb to strong social pressures--- to these we can admire their strong natural character, but there is a danger that these in a Christian community can be mistaken as "true followers" while those who failed in the Assembly as simply being "the deceived", and therefore worthy of only contempt.

  The Jesus I know as Lord has a very special place in his heart for those like Tom.  For those former members who (mostly former leaders) who have not awakened to what the Assembly was, their part in it, and what it made of them--- to these, they are far, far, away from knowing the heart of God.  How do I know this?  The prayer of the Publican vs. the one of the Pharisee for one.

  I know there are those who read here who might feel the weight of their failure while in the group, or one like it, and despise themselves for being taken in (just like those in that experiment were)--- it causes real emotional pain in the form of deep regret, anger, self loathing, sense of emptiness, etc.  Reading bible verses and prayer have not helped some of these much.  "How come I can't be like some others that don't seem to have these problems and whose God seems to care about them?"

  No Chuck, these are not nominal believers, but those deeply loved of God and whose pain he knows and shares!

                                                                              God Bless, Mark C.      

[Chuck Miller]

Mark,Joe, and Tom,

You may be right, brothers.

God bless,   Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Mark---

What experiment at Stanford? What do you mean Lucifer Factor?    Thanks for bringing the
original thought back into play.  Way off the subject again, huh? I'm one of the biggest offenders!! 

--Joe

[brian]

it is a fact that your moods and emotions are controlled by chemicals released in your brain. if you don't believe me, trying taking a mood-altering drug some time. any anti-depressant will do. no matter how strong your relationship with christ is, your mood will alter. a healthy brain releases these chemicals at appropriate times and in appropriate amounts so a person experiences 'normal' emotions. a strong relationship with christ can give a healthy brain more 'reasons' to release the chemicals that make a person feel peaceful and happy.

very few people have perfectly healthy bodies, and some people are born with bodies that produce almost no 'happy' chemicals at all. these people have a much harder time feeling happiness, and it has nothing to do with their spiritual state. conversely, someone who is manic is producing way too much 'happy' chemicals. it is a physical, chemical problem. this is what a competent mental health professional means when they diagnose someone as having a mental illness. the best they can currently do is offer such a person a drug that will help balance the chemicals in their brain properly, and try to teach them not to behave destructively based on their moods when their brain's chemical balance is out of whack.

i stumbled across an article that somewhat applies to the bent this discussion has taken:
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=nw20070709105012263C912426
granted, it was the church of scientology, not a christian church, but the basic point is the same: pressuring mentally ill people into not taking their meds can have awful, life-threatening consequences. people who insist on doing that will eventually end up with blood on their hands. granted, there are people who take meds who would be better off without them. i agree with you on that, chuck. pharmaceutical companies have vast marketing budgets because every new disease they invent to convince people to buy one of their meds is a big payoff for them.

my point is that i would not want to put myself in the position of deciding if someone really needs to be taking their meds or not. the stakes are just too high.

chuck, it sounds like most of what you are objecting to is 'pop psychology' - the simplistic convenient version of psychology they spew on the news or in sitcoms. i don't have much respect for pop psychology either. its about as accurate as a sitcom's (or news show's) portrayal of anything else.

you mentioned that your friend was taking lithium. lithium is a mood stabilizer, and it is typically prescribed when someone is manic depressive (bipolar). someone on lithium will generally be somewhat depressed, which is much better than being manic or deeply depressed. when such a person stops taking their meds, they can swing into a manic phase which means they will be "rejoicing" bigtime. nothing can bring a person down when they are manic, which is more dangerous than it sounds. they will enthusiastically run with any idea, no matter how foolish. they typically end up with massive debt and lots of unstable relationships before they go crashing down into a deep depression. people are actually more likely to kill themselves while swinging into a manic state than when they are depressed, because their behavior becomes so rash and impulsive. ideally, they will be weaned off of their meds at some point, but its a dangerous thing to mess with and should be approached very carefully.


as for the original topic this discussion was about: just as people's moods largely depend on  measurable, observable elements of the brain, so does their behavior and learning. people who are in positions of unaccountable power will eventually be corrupted by it - as demonstrated in the prisoner experiment and countless abusive churches, such as the assembly. the antidote is openness and accountability in the leadership. someone who has cultivated the true wisdom and humility that comes from a deep spiritual life will be protected, not by some mystical force, but by having the sense not to set up a church with such a controlling, unaccountable power structure. anyone who persists in such an unhealthy environment will be negatively affected by it, whether they are the one in power or are subjected to its abuses. that is the lesson i see in both the prisoner experiment and the  assembly.

gotta run,

brian

[moonflower2]

Chuck---

I was away from the computer over the weekend and just read Moonflower's post, and your response, along with the other posts on the board. I have to say I am not a strong supporter of psychology for every mental complaint, but I do see it's place in the field of medicine. There are people that can be truly helped by a good psychologist.

I want to say that I believe you have greatly misunderstood what Moonflower is saying. It is a reality that not everyone will accept Christ---and there are many that the Lord will have to "work on" for some  time before they accept the message(many of us did not immediately accept the Gospel and can remember being "preached to" and having tracts handed to us etc. before we finally accepted Christ).  I think what Moonflower is saying, is that the Lord is SO VERY MERCIFUL that he wants to reach out and help in any way possible a suffering humanity. His love for the world is towards ALL---but especially towards those who believe. Though there are those who would try to have us believe that God does not care for, or hear the prayers of the unsaved, it is absolutely untrue, as God will use any means possible to reach men, whether through his judgment or through his great mercy.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe (1 Tim. 4:10)

He is the savior of "all men" especially those that believe. How is he the savior of all men, if not all believe?
This verse has been misinterpreted by those who think ALL men will be saved. The verse is not saying that (though the Bible does say that it is God's desire that all men should be saved-- 1 Tim 2:1)---but it is saying that God cares deeply for all men on earth. There are men whom the Lord wants to be saved who will never receive him---but he still works to cure, heal and comfort them while they are on earth.  "He makes the rain to fall on the just, and on the unjust". Moonflower is not cheapening Grace, or Jesus' death on the cross by any means----Moonflower is stating that God is merciful to ALL--and if psychology is a means to help someone in severe mental pain, he has provided it---whether the person is a Christian or not!!

Moonflower stated:
The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.

I think that in some way this issue may come under "common grace".

The word "common" here is not referring to the value of the death of Christ, but the term used to refer to the grace that God shows to ALL men while they are on earth. It is this grace which provides the doctors, surgeons, psychologists, etc. to help alleviate much of the pain in the world. Does God care for the avowed atheist? Yes he does---the wheat and the tares grow together in the ground on this earth, and they both receive the same sunshine and the same rain---they both receive all the benefits and blessings of God. There is a chance the avowed atheist may become a Christian, but if not, he will face the consequences in eternity. But while he lives on the earth he receives the same gracious benefits God provides for all. I believe this may be what Moonflower was saying. This is a term called "common Grace"--the graciousness of the Lord towards all men.

It's too bad that we as Christians cannot be more like psychologists in one particular way: To take the time to really listen to someone who is suffering, rather than quote verses and think that this will take care of everything. Often, the person suffering mental anguish just needs someone to talk to who is understanding and shows some mercy---and this is why there are so many psychologists--some people literally have to pay someone to listen to them--and that is a real shame.

Thanks, Joe, that's exactly what I meant.

Chuck, you incorrectly defined some of the words I used and in doing that, you changed what I actually said.

Moonflower

Brian, what you have said is so true with bi-polar disorder. A friend's sister, if not on lithium, will be unable to sleep at all and will lose complete touch with reality, as most of us would without sleep.

[moonflower2]

COMMON GRACE:

http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/commongrace.htm

http://www.prca.org/articles/article_7.html

This could be another topic and may have already been discussed here in relationship to the unsaved doing "civil good", but I want to leave a website here for those who may be interested in the idea of "common grace", since it has previously been bashed by Chuck in an earlier posting (below):

CHUCK'S STATEMENT:

MY RESPONSE: Common grace?  Is this another of your theological concepts, or are you referring to that of James Boice?  In any event, you don’t need to explain it.

Moonflower

[Chuck Miller]

Moonflower,

Perhaps, before accusing me of “bashing” the idea of “common grace,” you should have read the information on the sites you listed.  Had you done so, you would have found that the site you  recommend  (http://www.prca.org/articles/article_7.html ) is a rather uncompromising rebuttal of the reformed doctrine of “common grace.”   
Pretty careless of you, Moonflower, but perhaps your defenders would like to offer their counter-rebuttals or explain what you and these Reformed theologians really meant. 

Chuck

[Oscar]

Chuck,

You wrote:

MY RESPONSE: Common grace?  Is this another of your theological concepts, or are you referring to that of James Boice?  In any event, you don’t need to explain it.

I find it odd that you would object to this doctrine on the basis of terming it a "theological concept".  The doctrine of the Trinity is also a theological concept.  I am sure that you don't object to that.

I looked over the link you gave in your last post.  The one from the Protestant Reformed Church in America.  At the bottom of the page is a link to another rebuttal entitled "Uncommon Grace". 

Seems that the objection arose from the fear that teaching common grace would lead people to doubt the strict Calvinist view of total depravity.  Strict Calvinists take this to mean "total inability to do anything God thinks of as good".  This, they fear, will lead people to accept the idea of universal atonement, that Christ died for all men.

I'm pretty sure you don't reject universal atonement.  But anyway the whole argument of the article is that common grace undermines some strongly held Calvinist ideas.  IMHO, these ideas are highly questionable anyway...so it doesn't seem like a very strong argument to me.

Personally, I believe that the idea behind common grace is quite biblical.  Simply that God is benevolent towards his creation and creatures, that he limits the effects of evil, and allows an adequate degree of civil goodness that people have societies to live in.

Tom Maddux

[moonflower2]

Chuck,

I felt that the entire idea of common grace would be more completely understood if the argument for and against it was represented more fully with the multiple websites.

It's quite obvious from Tom's post that with even an additional website he was able to see both sides of the argument very clearly.

It was such a heated topic at the time, that the preachers who were ousted from the Christian Reformed Church formed yet another dutch group called the Protestant Reformed Church.

Moonflower

[Chuck Miller]

Moon flower:

YOU WROTE:  I felt that the entire idea of common grace would be more completely understood if the argument for and against it was represented more fully with the multiple websites.

MY RESPONSE:  I apologize for my lack of understanding your motive and your fairness in presenting both sides of the debate .   However,  inasmuch as the case against “common grace” is so compelling, I find it strange that you still find it plausible. 

YOU WROTE:  It's quite obvious from Tom's post that with even an additional website he was able to see both sides of the argument very clearly.

MY RESPONSE:  Yes, and he has decided that the idea of common grace is “quite biblical.  I find it quite compromising and unbiblical.

YOU WROTE: It was such a heated topic at the time, that the preachers who were ousted from the Christian Reformed Church formed yet another dutch group called the Protestant Reformed Church.

MY RESPONSE:  How typical. And completely contrary to Paul’s exhortation ,  “Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Corinthians 1:10) and that of Jesus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me” (John 17:20-21).

Chuck