The Lucifer Factor

[moonflower2]

Moon flower:

YOU WROTE: It (common grace) was such a heated topic at the time, that the preachers who were ousted from the Christian Reformed Church formed yet another dutch group called the Protestant Reformed Church.

MY RESPONSE:  How typical. And completely contrary to Paul’s exhortation ,  “Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Corinthians 1:10) and that of Jesus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me” (John 17:20-21).

Chuck

Yes, how typical, and I can imagine that their responses to eachother were probably not unlike your response of July 8 that was directed to me below:

FROM MOONFLOWER:
Post partum depression, and certain forms of schizophrenia are caused by physical changes in the body that affect the mind. They are not a result of the sin of the individual afflicted by them. I believe you can be a follower of of Christ when you are in those states, but to say that a follower of Christ will not be afflicted by them, is just plain not true and is one of the reasons Christians (followers of Christ included) have gone to psychiatrists for help; they are helped without the infliction of the salve (sp?) of guilt that other Christians (and/or followers of Christ) have heaped upon them.

The next point I'd like to make is that there does need to be a remedy for those who do not accept what Christ has offered to them. If psychology can help them in some way, let it. They still need to learn to get along in this world whether they believe Christ is their savior or not.

I think that in some way this issue may come under "common grace".

(Chuck's) RESPONSE:  I thank you for clarifying where you are coming from.  You should be commended for having discovered a “remedy” for what Jesus called the “unforgivable sin.” I would also say that your blasé attitude toward the enormity of what He did for a sinful world demonstrates your complete ignorance of the grace and mercy of our heavenly Father.   If this sounds harsh, it is meant to, since I hope it will cause you to seek to fathom the dreadful consequences of our condemnation and come to understand and appropriate the mercy of God in His means for our  justification.  Paul’s epistle to the Romans would be a good place to start since your statement raises doubts in my mind as to whether you, yourself “have accepted what Christ has offered.”  

Moonflower

[Chuck Miller]

There's an interesting article today on "World Net Daily" site entitled

Millions of Americans hooked on psychiatric drugs -
The shocking link between pharmaceuticals, suicide, violence and mass murder.


Chuck Miller

[Oscar]

Chuck,

I went to the World Net Daily site but I couldn't find the article.  It is a good idea to copy and paste the link when you refer to another website.

Do you know how to do this?

Tom Maddux

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

The site is:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56536

Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

I remember reading various articles after someone went on a rampage and a common theme you will hear often (if the person was once in the military) is (example): "Herb Smith, 38, went on a shooting rampage today, killing 12 people. Smith, a former marine....etc"   Somehow, the article is trying to link his being a former marine with his rampage. I have seen this times without number.

The article below is doing the same thing-- somehow linking psychiatric drugs to mass murder and suicide. The fact is the drugs did not cause the mass murder or suicide---these people were on these drugs due to deeply rooted problems ALREADY affecting them.  It's an effort to say "SEE!! Look what psychiatry does to people!!!! All of these killers were using psychiatric drugs!!!"

I'd like to know how many of these killers used to go to church? How many were in the military?   "SEE!!!  Look what 'church-going' did to these people's minds!!!!  And being in the military only made that sickness worse!!  The church and the military make people mentally ill so they wind up using psychiatric drugs and then go on killing sprees!!"

It's the same logic really. These people were sick--and they were determined to do evil--as the Columbine offenders.  Psychiatric drugs didn't cause those two kids to go on a rampage. The drugs had been prescribed due to feelings and behavior already very apparent. Had there been far better parental supervision and care in their lives it most likely would never have happened. Who really knows how much these same drugs may have delayed the amount of time before the tragic events happened?

I am not massively defending psychiatry or psychiatric drugs, but I must say the amount of real HELP these drugs have given to people I'm sure greatly outweighs the negative. Many schizophrenics and people with bi-polar disorders have been greatly helped by the use of these drugs. In my opinion, statisics can be easily garnered to "prove" many things.  Take a list of 10 "killers" and ask each of them if they used to watch horror movies.  9 our of 10 of them have seen a horror movie, therefore horror movies may lead to murder.  9 out of 10 of them played with toy guns as a kid---therefore toy guns used as children can lead to murderous impulses.

People who kill or commit suicide are usually mentally ill in one way or another. They have been displaying signs of illness for some time. The chance that they have used, or are using psychiatic drugs is therefore greatly increased due to seeking help, or being "forced" to seek help by family, or by a legal order. But there are literally millions of others who don't kill or commit suicide, who also use these drugs and are greatly helped by them. The fact that killers or suicide victims were using psychiatric drugs only shows they already had a deep-rooted problem. In the vast majority of cases the people are on drugs because they are already suicidal, they are not suicidal because they took the drugs.

By the way, last Wednesday, after a class I'm taking on learning to be less argumentative, 10 of us went to an Italian restaurant. 9 of us had lasgana. After the meal a huge argument broke out about who is the best NFL team.  Because of this we came to the conclusion we shouldn't eat lasagna any more, as it causes arguments. Next week we're doing Chinese---perhaps it will have a more calming effect.       --just kidding, I'm not in a class teaching how to be less argumentative--but I think you catch my drift. 


--Joe

[Chuck Miller]

Joe,

You can no more prove that there is no link to mass murders than they can prove that there is. But many reliable sources seem to think there is.  And your stats about “literally millions of others who don't kill or commit suicide, who also use these drugs and are greatly helped by them,” are pure conjecture. 

News Target,com  reports the following:

“The FDA has now finally admitted that children who use antidepressant drugs are 180 percent more likely to have suicidal tendencies than children taking placebos. This is after the agency stalled for months by requesting an independent investigation of the research data, during which antidepressant drugs continued to be prescribed in huge numbers to children around the country and around the world -- all at great profit to pharmaceutical companies”.-

The Epilepsi Foundtuion reports:

“Drug companies that produce antiepileptic medications have been asked by the Food and Drug Administration to re-examine their clinical study data after claims of increased risk of severe depression, suicide or suicidal thoughts were levied against the drug Neurontin.”
“This inquiry comes as the FDA is working to rebuild its damaged reputation stemming from two cases of drug mishandlings last year, involving the antidepressant Paxil and painkiller Vioxx. The latter was linked to cardiovascular problems, while Paxil, in addition to other widely-prescribed antidepressants, was linked to increased suicide risks.”

Sheller, P.C reports:

“Prozac (fluoxetine hydrochloride) is manufactured by Eli Lilly & Co. Proizac is prescribed for the treatment of depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and other psychological disorders. The FDA approved Prozac in 1987 for treating depression. It is classified as a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) and has had many millions of users.
Prozac has been linked with serious, sometimes fatal, reactions. These reactions include liver damage, liver failure, and suicide. There have also been reports that Prozac may cause aggressive and violent behavior.”

Teen Screen Truths reports:

One has to ask the question "Why are so many murders and suicides taking place by people who are on supposedly 'anti-psychotic' or 'anti-depressant' medications?" If drugs such as Prozac, Zoloft, Ritalin, Xanax, Paxil, Thorazine and other related "anti-depressants" are actually an effective treatment, one would naturally expect suicides, murders and violent behavior to be decreasing, yet this is apparently the reverse of what is happening. Read the following quotes, headlines and reports on the rising statistics of suicides, murder and violence caused by people on the very drugs that are supposed to be helping them.
"These drugs can cause Akathisia, mental and physical agitation that sparks self-destructive, violent behavior. They can also induce dissociative reactions, making those who take the drugs INSENSITIVE to the consequences of their behavior.
"...guns and movies don't cause these tragically frequent episodes of inexplicable violence. The real reason is written out on a prescription pad by psychiatrists and doctors all over the country—these monstrous acts were done not by criminals, but ordinary people high on prescription drugs.
 
"Yet the overuse of PROZAC-LIKE DRUGS is not even a part of the national debate, and those who sound the warning against them are ignored. I can only surmise that the reason the FDA continues to disregard these mounting SSRI-related casualties is because of this agency's close alliance with the multi-billion-dollar drug companies. Just imagine what the FDA would do if there were evidence that these massacres were performed by people taking natural antidepressants."

There are more, if you care to search "drugs - suicide"

Chuck

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck----

This is probably an arugment that could go back and forth for a while. Even in your statistics, when mentioning Prozac, it says there are "millions of users"---but you don't hear about millions of suicides and murders---the percentage is extremely low.

I was watching a program last night on "48 Hours" about the criminally insane, and in a large majority of cases where the people murdered or became extremely violent they were refusing to take their medicine. But it is easy to then say that this person was "using psychiatic drugs"--the fact that they were refusing to take them will not be part of the statistic---just that they were prescribed them, and had been using them.

They were speaking with one woman who admitted that she had decided not to take her medicine and then attacked some children after she admittedly had a "psychotic religious episode". She saw one child in a Halloween mask and thought that the child was leading the other two to a satanic sacrifice. However, when using the medicine she clearly recognized how "crazy" she had been. The medicine she takes is clearly helping her---her failure to use it is what caused her psychotic episode.

Just about every commercial you see about a drug has warnings associated with it. I saw a commercial just last night for some syndrome involving the legs and people who cannot sleep well as a result. "Some reactions that could occur are nausea, vomiting, and dry throat...etc."  It also said that one's taking it might cause a  desire to "gamble".  As ridiculous as the whole thing seems, it shows that every drug has a risk associated with taking it. If someone is severely depressed, or has other severe mental problems, the likelihood that the drug could have adverse effects is greatly enhanced.

But again, I realize this argument could go on forever as opinion plays a large part in this, and polls and surveys can be manipulated any way you want them to appear. It appears we have gotten way off the original topic though, and will just say that I understand where you are coming from Chuck, and appreciate your opinions.

--Joe

[Oscar]

Chuck,

Let me tell you about Kevin G.

Kevin was a student in my class during my second year as a teacher.  In class Kevin was a constant disruption, he moved constantly, talked to the other kids and sometimes just into the air.  On the playground, (I was teaching 6th grade), he was a bully.  He was a big kid, and rarely got through a day without getting in a fight or tormenting smaller kids.  His grades were awful.  He had had just about every punishment applied to him that I, his parents, and the school could come up with.  Spanking, benching, grounding, restriction of TV and other priviliges, making him take "naps" in the nurses office, writing huge amounts of "standards", suspension from class and school.  Nothing worked.

In those days, 1971-72, the term ADHD was not known.  We called kids like this "hyperactive".  One dead giveaway that they had this condition was their handwriting.  Their cursive was large, scrawling, poorly formed and messy. Something was wrong with their brain/body coordination.  Other indicators were sloppy personal habits, along with the types of behaviors I already described.

In desparation, Kevin's parents took him to a psychiatrist, who prescribed Ritalin.  Kevin was suddenly transformed into a well behaved child who was attentive in class, did his work, earned good grades, played fairly and well on the playground.  We were amazed.

The next summer Kevin volunteered in the Summer School to tutor the 1-3 grade kids and help in thier games and art projects.  Five or six years later I ran into him when we were doing street witnessing on Van Nuys blvd. out in the Valley.  He was polite and listened politely to my presentation of the gospel. (His family is Jewish)

Chuck, should Kevin have been left in his original state?

 One of the problems with the type of non-science based criticisms you have posted is that they highlight the problems while ignoring the benefits.  Vague allusions to the FDA being in collusion with the drug companies do not describe realities.  If the source has evidence of wrongdoing, they should contact: a. a news outlet and go public. b. The Justice Department and tell them what they know.

Instead, they fiddle statistics and play on people's fears.  But this is nothing new.  You can find websites devoted to other wild theories based on bogus science and fear.  Some that come to mind are aspartame, flouride in drinking water, heating tv dinners in microwaves, Ibuprofin, Tylenol, dental fillings, on and on.  One common element in all of these is the fear that "they" are out to get us, whether they is the Commies, drug companies, big agriculture, the Trilateral Commision or perhaps the PTA.

I bought a book back in the 70's about the use of psychotheraputic drugs in education.  It was authored by a psychiatrist who was also a Plymouth Brother.  He compared the success/problem ratio, and came down firmly on the side of using what is available to help people.

I agree.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux