Salvation

[doug]

Having listened to a few preachers recently I am impressed that many of them not only do not teach the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine but are clear in their disagreement with it. I heard one man ask a number of people to accept Christ, and then immediately told them that a simple prayer was not what made them a christian. With all the legalism and stridency of the assembly I don't remember anyone speaking boldly against the idea that saying the sinners prayer would enter a person into the kingdom.

[outdeep]

Hi,

There are probably two different ways of looking at this view.

One camp, when they mean "once saved, always saved" feels that if I say the sinners prayer when I was seven but later in life live a completely immoral life without any acknowledgement of God, I am still saved because "once saved, always saved". 

Others call the teaching "perserverance of the Saints" which says that if God truly saves someone, He will be eternally saved - if indeed he is saved.  So in the example above, they would argue that my saying the sinners prayer when I was seven was clearly insincere and God never saved me in the first place.  Distinction is made between simply making a profession and genuine saving faith.

So I can only assume that the battle is over the above two interpretations of "once saved, always saved".   The first view has the obvious problem of those who professes to be Christians and live in opposition to the gospel.  The second view has the problem of lack of clarity when I stumble into serious sin - did I just backslide or was my faith never genuine?  Also, can I say that someone who served the Lord faithfully for twenty years and then lost faith due to, say, a death of a child was never saved?

The Assembly did teach that if you truly put your faith in Christ, you were saved.  However, the way they dealt with the problem of someone receiving Christ and then not living a worthy life is by separating initial salvation from a type of overcomer salvation.  Initial salvation got you barely in the door though not necessarily a happy camper.  It was through faithfulness that we obtained some of the better promises of God such as heaven, the rapture, marriage supper of the Lamb, actually seeing God (remember George saying "not everyone will see God; only the pure in heart will see God"?), etc.  He even said in some publications that non-overcoming Christians can experience the second death which as near as I could figure out was in George's mind some sort of purgatory cleansing of the unfaithful.

In conclusion, I guess to understand the preachers you are talking about, I would have to know a little more about what they are getting at and what problem they are trying to solve.

[doug]

I heard Chuck Smith say he won't say 'welcome into the kingdom' after someone has prayed the sinners prayer.The church I go to is pretty seeker sensitive and so while I was not surprised, I did note that they are at least beginning to teach stricter standards. I do remember the barren salvation concept. I wonder where george got that from? didnt he also teach that we had the opportunity to grow as christians after death? I've never posted on thes boards before, i'm actually rather enjoying it.

[Joe Sperling]

Doug----

It's good to see your posts. I hope you continue.

"Sears tools have a lifetime guarantee, as long as nothing happens to them while you are
using them".  If we read that we'd think "what kind of guarantee is that!!??" That's the
way those who teach you can accept Christ and be saved, but then later lost, sound to me.

Though I agree that not everyone who prays the "sinners prayer" necessarily gets saved, I do believe
that the one who prays it sincerely will be born-again and saved for all of eternity. The thief on the cross prayed sincerely, confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God would raise him from the dead (as Scripture says one needs to believe to be saved-- Rom. 10:9,10). He said "Lord, Remember me when you come into your kingdom". He therefore acknowledged Christ as "Lord" and believed that Jesus would live again, or how could he "come into his kingdom"?  Jesus said to the thief "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise". The thief had no time to live a righteous life, prove himself, be faithful to his calling, etc.---he simply prayed in sincere faith, and he was saved for all of eternity.

Salvation is an amazing and wonderful thing. What George did was to cheapen it. He made salvation a simple entry through a door. He often said "Salvation is just the beginning..." and then would go on to talk about the need for faithfulness in our lives, and take away the joy by saying things such as "not all are sons"--stating one "earns"(though he wouldn't put it that way) "sonship" through their own faithfulness. So, though some teach one may accept Christ and still be lost---George taught you were eternally saved, but you could still lose everything through your own unfaithfulness (which is as good as being eternally lost due to the eternal shame associated with the loss of the Inheritance). George's main teachings surrounded sanctification following initial salvation, and all the things you could lose after you were saved. He didn't preach one could lose their salvation (although he strangely seemed to imply a Christian might wind up in the Lake of Fire--never really stating whether this was for eternity, or for probationary period like purgatory), but he did preach an awful lot about what one could lose as a Christian by not remaining faithful and committed.

Thank God the Bible says that we are in the hands of the Father and NO ONE can take us out of his hand! Hebrews says that those who come to Jesus He is able to save for all eternity, since He has offered one sacrifice for ALL TIME!!  "He who believes in Me HAS eternal life.."

"For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him, and continues faithfully to the end, should not perish, but have eternal life".  By adding that extra sentence, one removes all joy, all peace, all confidence, all praise to God, and turns the words "IT IS FINISHED" into "IT IS FINISHED IF".  Thank God it truly is finished and the words "Once saved, always saved" are true!!!

[Oscar]

Joe,

You said:

""Sears tools have a lifetime guarantee, as long as nothing happens to them while you are
using them".

Quite off the topic, but somewhat interesting.

My dad bought a set of Craftsman sockets at Sears back in the late 40's or early 50's.  When he died in 1965 they came to me. 

Sometime in the early 1970's I was trying to take off my front wheels to check my brakes on my Ford pickup.  I tried to break the lug nuts loose with my jack handle...and it bent.  Next I tried my "X" lug nut tool.   It bent as well!   The guy at the tire store had set the air wrench too high.

Finally I decided to try my dad's breaker bar from his 1/2 inch socket set.  I put the appropriate socket on the breaker bar, put it over a lug nut, sat down on the ground and braced my feet against the bumber and a carport support and heaved with both arms, my back, and both legs.   

The socket split in to two equal halves, and I fell on my back on the driveway.

About 3-4 years ago I was transferring my sockets into a new tool box my kids had given me and I spotted the broken socket which I had put back into my dad's toolbox.  I took it to sears and gave it to the guy in the tool department.  He read the Craftsman label on the broken socket, walked over to the new sockets, and handed me a brand-new matching socket to replace my dad's socket from around 50-60 years ago.

As men's guarantees go...that's fabulous.

Men's promises are fairly reliable, especially if honoring them is beneficial to the person who made the promise.  But not always.

Jesus, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, promised us..."I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[doug]

At times I wonder waht the effectiveness is of passing out tracts and witnessing is. I have a friend who distributed 12,000 cd tracts in the past 13 months and only one person emailed him a thanks. Who knows.

[Oscar]

Doug,

While I did not come to faith as a result of reading a tract, I became aware that my works would not save me from a tract that I picked up on a bus bench at 16.  That awareness led me to seek God, which led to my being witnessed to by a Christian worker at 19. 

I "received Christ" that day.  Christ has been my hope for 46 years now.  I also know some folks who have walked with the Lord for over 30 years now that I introduced to the gospel by witnessing to them.

I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that millions have come to faith through tracts and personal witnessing.  Just ask Christians how they came to faith.  Most will tell you that it was through the witness of parents, co-workers, or friends.

Tom Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

Doug----

You never really know what the Lord can do with a tract, or with a few words of witnessing. Many people do not respond right away, but the Lord said His Word would accomplish what he sent it for,
and would not return to him void.

 I can personally say that I was handed a couple of tracts before
I was saved, which I read and then threw away. Then one day my next door neighbor appeared at my door and said "Joe, there's still time" and handed me a Living Bible Translation of the Gospel of John. I had no idea why he would say "There's still time" but the urgency in his voice shook me a bit and made me wonder. I began reading it and was saved because of it. A few years later my nephew was visiting and we began to talk about the Gospel.  I found that same Gospel of John in my desk and gave it to him to read.  He also got saved!  So, that one Gospel of John wound up being the vehicle that led two souls to Christ!!  So, you never know what one piece of literature can do---of course, it's not the literature, but God's Word printed on it that is so powerful!!

It makes me wonder sometimes that if I had not been given the tracts that I read quickly and threw away, if my heart would have been ready for the Gospel of John I read later. Sometimes the fallow ground needs to be broken up a bit before the seed can be planted. Those 12,000 CD's your friend sent out may have done far more than he could imagine--and one day in eternity he will see the results!!

[outdeep]

Tracts certainly had its place.  I came to Christ through my brother reading the Four Spiritual Laws to me and praying the prayer at the end.

Things to consider:
1.  Most tracts are cheaply printed meaning they are ugly with very small type with a predictable message and format.  I don't even bother to read them anymore.  Why squint through 4pt font when I can read well-printed material that I enjoy?
2.  Most tract gives the same sales pitch - a condensed, bottom-line gospel with no opportunity for discussion.  Why read something that you already think you know what it says?
3.  Like it or not, they just don't go over big today.  I agree with what was posted - God can use anything but we Christians need to be wise to understand how to present the gospel in a way it will be listened to.  Mass handing out and placing of tracts generally has very little visible fruit today.
4.  The absolute worse tracts are those that look like $100 bills but when you pick it up it is a track.  Not only do I not want to read it but I'm ticked off because someone just tried to trick me.

Possibilities:
1.  Certainly we have designers in the church that can make a tract appealing.  Can't we make something that is well designed and crafted?  (Of course, cost is an issue if you are going to mass-pass it out)
2.  Quoting verses and saying "the Bible says" is not as well received since, unlike 40 years ago, many don't see the Bible as authoritative.  Persuasion will need to rely more on good writing and content.
3.  Our aim may need to be to "start the conversation" instead of "closing the sale" as most tracks were designed.  How about a challenging, well-written tract that you can give to someone and say, "let's have lunch next week and discuss it?"
4.  The internet is becoming a more preferred and cost-effective way to communicate which is why more focus and attention goes here.
5.  My job at Samaritan's Purse depends alot on mass mailing.  However, we never mail to our entire database.  We do special selects to mail a piece to folks we feel have a reasonable chance of responding.  Otherwise it is too expensive.  So we have the choice of printing cheap tracks and give them to everyone (which few will actually read though some occasionally do) or print compelling tracts and use them for those we think we can actually have a conversation with.

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time we need to be careful we don't fall
into thinking that if we can make the Gospel more appealing to the world they will receive it--ex: If we package
it just right, with the right wrapping paper and bows, that the world would be more willing to receive it.

All through time God has saved people in the same manner---through the preaching of His Word.  Imagine if someone said to George Whitfield or D.L. Moody or Spurgeon--"Listen, the world just isn't going to listen to the same old thing any more. You need to come out dressed in brilliant robes, with some attractive catchy music that will draw them in, then they will listen to you". And we do see people who try to do that---thinking some gimmick is going to draw more people to Christ. And of course, only the Holy Spirit can draw people to Christ--not fanfare or gimmicks. Billy Graham preached in the same manner as all who came before him--"The Bible says..."

"The preaching of the cross is to them who perish foolishness.."  No matter how beautifully we package the message it's still going to be foolishness to those whose hearts are not prepared to receive it. We always have a tendency to think if we could repackage, beautify, or water down the message a little, people would be more willing to consider it.  Repackaging, beautifying and watering down the message will attract a great number of people, but unfortunately it will not save them. (If you remember, a great many people "turned back" in John 6 when they realized what the true message was).  I'm not inferring you want to "water down" the message---but many attempt to do so, putting their own ideas in place of how the Holy Spirit really works. As useless as it appears to
pass out tracts, the effects they are having are hard to measure. As you mentioned, a person who is already a Christian may see them as having a "predictable message and format"--but someone who really does not know the Gospel message could be effected greatly by the Scripture verses showing that they are sinners and need salvation by Grace through Jesus Christ. Because it isn't the tract itself, but the verses printed on it that are filled with life.

I do understand where you are coming from though, and know it is with the best of intentions!! Any way we get the message out is better than not getting it out at all!!

--Joe

[outdeep]

Actually, I'm not at all saying that if we package it just right, the world will be more willing to receive it.

I am saying that most tracts seem intentionally packaged cheap, shoddy, dated, poorly written, filled with unattractive graphics and do more to alienate and put off the reader.  We justify our incompetence by saying, "it is just the foolishness of the cross" when in fact we are just too lazy to think about how to communicate in an effective way.

Fishers of men mean you use wisdom to use the bait that is effective for the fish you are trying to catch today, not what happened to work well in the 1970's. 

The gospel never changes.  The techniques that will interest your audience to read and how much of the gospel they can digest at one time do change.

[doug]

It has long been my considered opinion that the best way to preach the gosdpel is to first  allow the Lord to work in my own life, bathe the entire process in prayer and then let him do the work. Having said that one can easily pass out 20-30 cd tracts in an hour. One would do well to speak to 5 people in an hour. Also, it has recently occurred to me that while it important to preach a clear gospel, the real effect of most witnessing is to get people thinking about spiritual things.
Whenever we would go out and pass out Bible study invitations I was never overly concerned that they attend OUR Bible study. Rather, I took it on faith that they would be in a sense reminded to return to their own church or read the Bible on their own. I don't know how many people have heard of  the testimony of Mr. Genor but knowing that there is a hugh unseen work is very encouraging.
Most people say they are christians whats wrong with using that? I pass out on cd message by ray comfort entitled Hells Best Kept Secret. It has a good thought provoking message and while it probably would have little meaning to someone who had never heard of Christianity before it can water the seed to a professant or carnal christian. I can pass out 30 of these in a short time,  my assumption is that more people will listen to a cd on the way home from the beach than will read a tract. Which means i reach a lot of folks. I cannot and do not wish to talk to 30 people. But the cds he sends me do, i just pass em out.

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

I appreciate the response. I hear where you are coming from. But often people when fishing will try all the latest fads, shiny lures, new fish scents, etc. etc. when it turns out the guy catching the most fish is simply putting a worm on a hook (hooks have basically remained the same for years). Often, when I've been out fishing off the California coast there are people with all new fangled equipment, and yet the
guy catching the most fish is using a live anchovy on a hook and is just really good at knowing where the fish are.

So, in one way I understand what you are saying, but I also would not say it is incompetent to say that to the world "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness"(using this as an excuse not to change Gospel tracts). I have a Bible that has the same Word that has been there for 2000 years. If I take that Bible, paint it in beautiful rainbow colors, and put flashing lights on it, is it going to cause someone to read it more? It might cause them to wonder, attract them to it, but when they open it up they will read the "same old stuff" as before. That's the point I'm trying to make. There is room for improvement of Gospel tracts though--there are some that are poorly put together--that's for sure. I just have to repeat though---Billy Graham preached throught the 40's, 50's, 60's,70's, 80's, 90's and into 2000 and never seemed to need a new lure---and he always used the same bait. And he led thousands of people to Christ. What he was doing in the 70's he did until the end (I'm not sure if he's still preaching now or not) without wavering. But really, I see where you are coming from Dave, and don't mean to come off as taking your opinions lightly, and not considering them.

[Joe Sperling]

Doug---

Excellent point. God alone can use the tracts, and praying first that God direct and guide and open
up the hearts that will read them is very important. I looked up Mr. Genor on "google" and read the
testimony concerning him---it's amazing what one person can do.  Thanks for sharing that. And the
CD's fall into line with what Dave's been sharing below also--Perhaps Christians do need to look at the
resources available and get more with it--and use every modern means available. But, as I mentioned
below, I'm one of the guys on the boat who relies on the anchovies I've used ever since I began fishing

--Joe

[doug]

I'm not saying that new tracts or high-tech wizardry is better but rather that I can reach a larger number of people. I don't doubt that personal ministry is very good, but with television and cds one can simply reach a far larger number of people.
Also, I am making a very separate point from whether a person is saved from praying the sinners prayer. I can pass out many cds, and who knows how many people listen to them. There are a lot of student groups who go to the beach on friday nights. I can give one person a cd and pray that the whole carload listens to it. No arguing, no fuss and they effortlessly hear a human voice talk about christian things.
That may sound trite to say "talk about christian things' but thats all I am really trying to do. To get people to think about the things of the Lord. People who don't listen to christian radio or have evangelical christians in there life may never think about going to church but still consider themselves christians. Prodding them to consider more seriously what a real faith-walk is or lighting a fire under them can do a great deal to getting them to read the Bible more seriously or start going to church again. I'm not in any way trying to whiz-bang things or have some sort of false belief that just because it uses a computer there will never be a mistake, that would be ridiculous.
I read somewhere that the Billy Graham crusade has had more altar calls in the past 15 or so years than they have had in the previous 40. Its not that Billy Graham changed or did not change his message but rather that far more people are able to hear him from tv and radio.
Another further point also come from Billy Graham. I have heard that he would be happy if 5% of the people who make an altar call would actually progress with things and actually go to church and develop a real walk. I apss these things out at my Church in hopes that it will stir people up.
Listen to the Mr Genor message is in MP3 format burn a copy of it and then compare it to merely reading it or even imagine how poorly a job I would do If I tried to tell you the story. Thats the difference I'm talking about.