Sicko

[DavidM]

As a healthcare worker for the last 27 years I didn't learn anything new about our healthcare system by watching Michael Moore's new movie, "Sicko". Yet after watching the footage shot in Cuba a twinge of pain shot through my heart. After watching the "Socialist" healthcare workers in action I remembered why it was I went into the profession. As a young idealistic Christian I wanted to serve the Lord. For me this meant helping people, helping my society, finding my place in the community of Fullerton. After getting my license in Occupational Therapy I applied for a Job at St. Jude hospital in Fullerton. After contacting a number of Christians that worked there I started a ch summary Bible Study. As time went by I made many friendships with patients and coworkers. Yet there was a group that I didn't make friends with, Administration! This began soon after I hired on. It was the need for "Increased Productivity". At staff meetings employees were constantly being  reminded that "Hospitals are closing!"  "We need you to account for every minute of your day!" "You should be billing for every hour you are here!" One by one I noticed every coworker leave.  There were 18 people in my department when I arrived in 86. By 91 there were only 2 left. This was due to the fact that the company put money above everything else. They wanted their therapists to work for low pay and high production. For example a 1/2 hour of my treatments brought in 75$ for the hospital. (They paid me 9$ an hour) So while I averaged 11 hours of billing (sometimes I billed 16 hours in a day!) The hospital? Business!  was getting a pretty good deal. How good?  During the 90's St. Judes added billions of dollars worth of "Imaging centers" to the existing facility and the community of Fullerton is saturated with "Off Site Centers". Again the whole time I worked there I was lectured on "More Productivity" at every staff meeting. Patient care changed also, HMO's limited time and services. "In order for us to make money we need to be efficient!" Patients were admitted then discharged regardless of their needs! I began to loathe my job! I began to get sick and tired of giving myself, lifting patients out of bed even though my back was aching, changing patients diapers because the nurses just don't have time to do it and then being told, "You aren't working hard enough!" It was during 1990 I decided to change my career. (I still work as a therapist during the summers) Today I am very happy that I am a teacher. (My kids just had their art work accepted into the Orange County fair!) I know that when I grow older and retire I will feel good about my choice to give to others. Yet after watching Sicko I am convinced it didn't have to be this way! People in other countries, even Cuba get better healthcare than U.S. citizens!  Why? Because we turned a humanitarian occupation into a multi billion dollar business.

[outdeep]

The medical field is one area where capitalism certainly isn't giving the answer.  More and more there are stories of certain medication or procedures given not because it is best but it is what insurance will pay.  My doctor has to run folks through like a mill limiting visits to fifteen minutes so he can get enough folks through his office to actually make a living.  At our local hospital, a VP is frustrated because he cannot fire or review someone on his staff who literally (and I mean literally) reads magazines and sleeps in his office all day.  Meanwhile, nurses work for lower pay because we are in a "desired resort" community and part-time nurses are no longer given the option of saying "no" when they are called in at a moments notice.

I don't know that socialized medicine holds the solution though it is often taunted as the bright alternative.  Stories from Canada include folks who can't get needed procedures for months and severe limitations on what they can have done.  In short, you have to deal with one expression of human greed and sin or another.  Whether it be dealing with money-making mentality of administrators and insurance or the "user" mentality of those who take undo advantage of a system that is free.

Mr. Moore is certainly shooting fish in a barrel in pointing out that our medical system has serious problems.  According to my VP friend, there is predictions in single-digit years on how long it will be for the local hospital to go under if some serious changes are not done.  Nevertheless, unless there is some serious changes in the heart that will restore medicine to compassion and mercy as well as restoring a sense of personal responsibility for one's medical care (and no I don't have the right to sue his ass if the doctor makes an honest mistake), I suspect that moving from one medical model to another will only provide a new venue for the same problem.

[Mark C.]

Hi David M.,

 Cuba is used by Michael Moore in his film as an example of great medical care?  Why did Castro get treatment from a doctor who flew in from another country (I think it was Spain?).

  The care in Cuba is free, but it is extremely backward and lacks even the most basic services that we take for granted in the free World.

  As bad as private care may be I'd rather have that then something the govt. runs.  Can you imagine waiting for your medical care the way that Katrina victims waited for help from the Feds!?  Taking responsibility for your self is always a better answer than waiting for the benevolence from some civil servant.

                                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

[DavidM]

  "The care in Cuba is free, but it is extremely backward and lacks even the most basic services that we take for granted in the free World." Quote from Mark

   As long as I can remember I have heard these kind of remarks about "Socialized Medicine" Yet in the movie Mr. Moore moves through Canada, France, England, Cuba demonstrating that is is simply not true. Why do you say, "..backward and lacks even the most basic services..." did you hear this from someone who lived in Cuba?  "I went to the hospital in Havana and they shook a rattle over my abdomen!"  The truth as Moore clearly shows in the film is that they use the most up to date treatments and equipment. Plus prescriptions that cost U.S. citizens 100's of dollars are pennies over there. Moore also points out that a child born in Cuba has a much better chance for survival than if it was born in the U.S. Mark can you back up what you are saying with some evidence?

  Moore points out that we in America have been trained to FEAR the word "Socialized" We equate it with communism. However there are many institutions in America that are socialized and work perfectly fine. schools, fire departments, post offices, libraries are all run by the government (Federal and State) paid for by our taxes. Why do they work?

[DavidM]

 Cuba is used by Michael Moore in his film as an example of great medical care?   Why did Castro get treatment from a doctor who flew in from another country (I think it was Spain?).


   I am not sure that this contradicts Moore's example. However, Castro probably has powers that were never granted to him by the citizens of Cuba. Castro has probably abused his powers in innumerable other ways. The founding fathers of our country identified this as "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Isn't it great that we have a constitution that is designed to keep this from happening to us?

[Mark C.]

How do I know David?

  I must admit that when I first posted I had the general impression from what I heard and read in the news that Cuba medical services were as I described them.  I'm glad you challenged me as a easy news search was very helpful in validating what I had guessed.

  A Dr. Leonel Cordova who once was a doctor in Cuba, but is now working in a hospital in Miami had this to say about Michael Moore's movie "Sicko," and especially what Moore says about Cuba:

 "Moore was either misled or is deliberately not telling the truth.  There is a two tiered health system in Cuba--- one for the poor and another for the privledged.  95% of the Cuban population is served by a health system that is free, but has almost no medicines, or options.  The vast majority of the population is suffering from malnutrion and poor health as a result.  The medical facilty that Moore visited is one for the 5% priviledged class.  The USA certaintly needs improvement in it's health care system, but Cuba is not the answer."

  Moore has a leftist driven agenda with his movie making (which supports him in a lavish capitalistic lifestyle btw ) that leaves him with no credibility in my mind.

   As to Govt. running things:  Even Europe has being moving away from socialism as they have discovered that it does lead to huge problems.  The heavy tax burdens levied on the productive part of the populace to support craddle to grave services for the indolent kills the motive of the producers in the country who are getting tired of supporting everybody else.

  There are things that only the govt. can do (police, military) but when govt. attempts to redistribute wealth via confiscatory taxes to fund those not willing to take responsibility for their own lives I am against it (it's a wholly different matter when considering those not able to help themselves--- the truly needy--- and charity services not only are an worthy effort in this situation they do a far better job at providing help).

                                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

[Oscar]

Folks,

From the web:
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"Complaints have arisen that foreign "health tourists" paying with dollars and senior Communist party officials receive a higher quality of care than Cuban citizens. Former leading Cuban neurosurgeon and dissident Dr Hilda Molina asserts that the central revolutionary objective of free, quality medical care for all has been eroded by Cuba's need for foreign currency. Molina says that following the economic collapse known in Cuba as the Special Period, the Cuban Government established mechanisms designed to turn the medical system into a profit-making enterprise. This creates an enormous disparity in the quality of healthcare services between foreigners and Cubans leading to a form of tourist apartheid. In 1998 she said that foreign patients were routinely inadequately or falsely informed about their medical conditions to increase their medical bills or to hide the fact that Cuba often advertises medical services it is unable to provide.[56] Others makes similar claims, also stating that senior Communist party and military officials can access this higher quality system free of charge.[7][8] In 2005, an account written by Cuban exile and critic of Fidel Castro, Carlos Wotzkow, appeared showing apparent unsanitary and unsafe conditions in the "Clínico Quirúrgico" of Havana;the article claims that health care for Cubans occurs in worse conditions in the rest of the country.[57]

An article in Canadian newspaper National Post, based interviews of Cubans, finds that in reality even the most common pharmaceutical items, such as Aspirin and antibiotics are conspicuously absent or only available on the black market. Surgeons lack basic supplies and must re-use latex gloves. Patients must buy their own sutures on the black market and provide bedsheets and food for extended hospital stays.[9] The Cuban government blames the shortages on the embargo and states that those with more severe chronic diseases receive medicines.[10] However, other sources suggest that also those with such diseases lack medicines. It is also suggested that in some cases the local non-dollar stocks have been shipped abroad. [11][12]

An article in The Boston Globe, partially based on interviews with Cubans, argues that the massive export of doctors and other medical personal to Venezuela in exchange for oil has caused shortages in Cuba. Regarding Operación Milagro, "It's all the Venezuelans who need cataracts surgery first, and then the Cubans if there's any time left", said Georgina, 60, a retired Havana clerk."
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Our medical system is the most technologically advanced in the world.  It is, however, hideously expensive.  A large part of this expense has nothing to do with medicine but rather is caused by self-defensive costs against lawsuits.  Doctors regularly have to prescribe "defensive tests" when they don't suspect a problem, but fear that they will be exposed to lawsuits accusing them of negligence if they don't test for every possibility.  At each level of healthcare one must carry expensive malpractice insurance to protect oneself against the constantly vigilant packs of lawyers sniffing around for clients.

Another huge problem is the illegal alien influx.  The Democrat politicians favored by Mr. Moore favor virtually unlimited immigration in the hopes that this will produce more Democrat voters in a few years.  Let's also not forget that the Trial Lawyer's Association, which opposes lawsuit reform, is one of the top contributors to Democrats.

Modern European countries do deliver excellent healthcare.  What they don't usually mention is that since it is paid for by government appropriations, when the annual budget is used up these services are not available until the following year.  The only way to prevent this is to ration healthcare services.  So where we just go to the doctor or hospital an get what we need, Europeans are in constant danger of being put on waiting lists.

If you are in danger of dying immediately they take care of you.  Folks with ulcers, needing hip or knee surgery, arthritic surgery, hearing problems, eye surgery...you are likely to have to wait a year or two before you get what you need.  I read of a case in Canada where a person had waited over a year for knee surgery.  She had paid the extra premium they allow for a private room.  When they finally called her to the hospital she found that she was in a three bed room with two men.  When she complained she was told to shut up or she would be kicked out and put back on the waiting list.

I once lived with "free" government healthcare when I was in the service.  They had full healthcare services but it was rationed.  At my base in Michigan the wait for a dental appointment was nine months.  However, you could get in a week or so if you slipped the clerk that made the appointments $20 under the table.  This was in 1961 and a low ranking enlisted man like me made about $80 a month.  He got caught, so after that it was a nine month wait for everyone, except high ranking officers and their families.

"Socialized" medicine is not for me.

Thomas Maddux

[DavidM]

Tom, Mark, It seems like this has deviated into a bash Castro's Cuba thread. Instead of focussing on Cuba hows about we ask real people who live in Canada, England, France how they feel about their healthcare?
Moore points out that we (U.S.A.) rank 37th in the world when it comes to healthcare. Why?  What about the arguments about "waiting lists" etc..?  It just so happen to know a couple who have duel citizenship in Canada and the U.S. I will try to contact thema nd get it from the horses mouth. (This should be interesting as the husband had a severe stroke about 5 years ago.)  I also have quite a lot of contacts in Europe through another B.B. Isn't the internet great!  I am sure you know lots of people in Canada?  Cassets?  Let's hear what they have to say!  Will be back soon!

[DavidM]

Tom, I can't help but comment on the "Lawsuit excuse" While working at St Jude I ran into Dr. Boston. I remembered him from my childhood. He had a practice on Beach and Malvern. Dr. Boston had a habit of parking his top model Corvette Illegally in front of the hospital. But he was better known for his antique car collection. He, like so many others need these luxeries to cover themselves if they were ever sued??? Another time I remember going to visit a Dr. Soderquist. I was having problems with a rash on my hands. (Turns out from the billing papers I was filling out everyday at St. Jude.) My insurance at St. Judes had a $200 deductable. So I had to pay $60 for the Dr, to look at me for 5 seconds and say, "I think you are allergic to chemically treated paper."  "Here try this cream." Now after making $9 an hour I should have been able to sue him for robbery!

  While working at "Thrifty Drug Store"  I was a member of the Retail Clerks Union. All of my dental and healthcare (with prescriptions) were covered free!  I remember going to a dentist (Dr. Macnamara on Commonwealth), and having thousands of dollars of work done. (I was in real bad shape.) For my prescriptions I walked to the back of the store where I worked, Mr. Tanita, the pharmacist would hand them to me, Free! Why our country treats its servicemen the way you describe doesn't have anything to do with socialized medicine. (If I am correct Republicans have recently voted and passed legislation to cut servicemen's benefits.) If what you say is true our servicemen should be very angry and demand better!  But of course the notion that we as Americans should stand up for ourselves is foreign to us. 

Benjamin Franklin started the first public library, fire department, hospital for the poor, and post offices and yet he was a capitalist!  He was a capitalists capitalist!  He was the quintessential American! The self made man! He believed in hard work!  His sayings constantly chided the lazy man and affirmed the diligent man!  Why then did he see the need for free public services? 

[moonflower2]

Folks,

Our medical system is the most technologically advanced in the world.  It is, however, hideously expensive.  A large part of this expense has nothing to do with medicine but rather is caused by self-defensive costs against lawsuits.  Doctors regularly have to prescribe "defensive tests" when they don't suspect a problem, but fear that they will be exposed to lawsuits accusing them of negligence if they don't test for every possibility.  At each level of healthcare one must carry expensive malpractice insurance to protect oneself against the constantly vigilant packs of lawyers sniffing around for clients.

Exactly. Many doctors have left off delivering babies because of the expense of malpractice insurance.

Another huge problem is the illegal alien influx.  The Democrat politicians favored by Mr. Moore favor virtually unlimited immigration in the hopes that this will produce more Democrat voters in a few years.  Let's also not forget that the Trial Lawyer's Association, which opposes lawsuit reform, is one of the top contributors to Democrats.

Very interesting information. Thanks.

I read of a case in Canada where a person had waited over a year for knee surgery.  She had paid the extra premium they allow for a private room.  When they finally called her to the hospital she found that she was in a three bed room with two men.  When she complained she was told to shut up or she would be kicked out and put back on the waiting list.

I heard that the lines for medical care in Canada are very long. So much for moving to a place of safety from Hilary, (from whom no one is safe), if she becomes our next president. Long lines are characteristic of those on public aid here.

"Socialized" medicine is not for me.

Thomas Maddux

Me neither.
[/quote]

[Oscar]

Dave,

Here is a news article about a Canadian who sued his government after waiting an entire year for a hip replacement.  Notice the solution...not elimination of the waiting lists, but rules about maximum time on the lists.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/

Regarding the "lawsuit excuse".  It is a very real problem.  A few years back production of small aircraft in the USA stopped completely.  Beech, Piper, Cessna, Mooney all of them had to stop making light planes due to the humongous costs of liability insurance.  They had to charge so much for the planes because of it that no one would buy them!

In one lawsuit a guy had flown a plane that was over 40 years old into a mountainside.  The seat tore loose from the floor in the crash.  The pilot's family won a large settlement on the basis of faulty workmanship!  I don't think that any plane in the world would not be completely trashed if you ran it into a mountain.

When the Bush administration came into power, they were able to get a weak reform bill through congress.  You can no longer sue for faulty workmanship on planes over 20 years old.  So, Cessna at least is making light planes again.

BTW, what did folks buy when the US companies stopped building them?  Foreign planes.  Their countries protect them from ridiculous lawsuits.

Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

Here is someone from Germany,

As for Germany...

...those on "socialized care" (I'll assume this is roughly what we call "Krankenkasse" over here, in contrast to private health insurance) have to pay more than was the case some years ago, that's true, and it annoys us patients to no end... but I dare say that the increased cost is tolerable (amounts to 40 € per year max). What do we get for it? From my personal experience, you'll have to wait for an average of one our or one-and-a-half before it's your turn, but the care you receive is okay. And aside from your monthly fee for the federal health insurance (which isn't back-breaking) you rarely have to pay extra bucks unless it's for some rather... exotic... treatments that are not officially endorsed by the insurance companies.

On the other side are the private health insurance customers who indeed get the very best care (as far as I can tell), but for a whopping price (unless they signed their contracts when they were damn young - the fees rise sharply with every passing year).

So, our health system could be much much better, but we don't normally have to worry whether we'll ever get over our diseases. Of course I don't exactly have much experience with how it works in other places...

[DavidM]

Woops this is American, (this is a tragic story)

I only managed to watch half of Sicko before I got so angry I had to turn it OFF. I live in the USA. I have health insurance. I have spent, out of pocket, over $100,000 to stay alive during the past ten years. Two words that can, and will, bankrupt an average American family: co-pay and deductible.

It works like this. I pay 25 dollars every time I see a doctor. Which is GREAT, unless you see four doctors in one week. OK, that’s 100 bucks. Doctors prescribe four new medications. One is 15 dollars, the other is 15 dollars, the next two are 30 dollars each. Now I have spent 190 dollars on medical care in a single week. WITH health insurance.

Groceries or medical care? Which do we buy this week? I have fed my daughter POPCORN for dinner because we could not afford food after paying for my medical care. Our house has been in foreclosure so many times because we paid the doctor instead of our mortgage.

I had two surgeries THIS year. I had one surgery last year. I had chemotherapy for almost two years. I had cancer surgery that cost $200,000 in 1998. Our insurance paid 80% of the bill. It took us five years to pay off that medical bill. We spent my daughter’s college fund. We spent our entire retirement savings. And I still have medical bills that are not paid for. And as long as I am alive, I will have MORE medical bills. What insurance doesn’t cover is shocking. It really is.

As far as waiting for medical care, what the hell do you think goes on in America? I’ve waited two months to see a neurologist. I’ve waited six weeks to see a neuro-ophthalmologist. I got a prescription for a new wheelchair in January 2007. It’s now July 2007. Do I have my wheelchair? NO! Because my insurance company is tying things up in red tape. I’m still waiting for them to pre-qualify me so I can order the goddamn chair. When will I get my wheelchair? I don’t know. I’m so angry I could go to my insurance company and beat someone with a cane. Break someone’s legs. OK, now YOU can’t walk. Now, you wait seven months on HOUSE ARREST while some pinhead decides to pre-qualify you for the wheelchair you need! See how much YOU like it!

Sad thing is, if I DID beat someone, I’d get the damn chair in prison! America has socialized medicine… in prison. A criminal needs an MRI? They get one and don’t have to pay the deductible, either. Oh, you need a powerchair, here you go! It has crossed my mind that committing a crime might save my family financially. I pay my taxes. I follow the rules. I’ve never even gotten a speeding ticket. If I was a murdering bastard, I’d have my powerchair right now. Instead, I follow the rules and the rules... SUCK!

Catastrophic illness is a nightmare. It really is. I’m living most people’s nightmare scenario. I can handle chest cracking, rib spreading surgery. I can handle high dose chemo. I can handle pain so bad that all I can do is scream at the top of my lungs. I’ve done it all! I can deal with degenerative, incurable, neuromuscular illness. I cannot deal with the medical bills. It’s the BILLS that make me suicidal, not the illness. Because I love my family and I hate to see them hurt. And the medical bills hurt us. If I died, they would be financially better off, and that’s not fair to them, or me.

My husband makes too much money for me to qualify for Illinois Medicaid. I was a stay at home mom when I got sick, so I don’t have enough work credits to qualify for Federal disability income. I cannot collect disability on my husband’s job until my husband turns 63. He was 36 when I got sick. I’ll most likely be dead by the time he’s 63, but I’m gonna fight like hell to live, anyway. Because I have a life that matters!!!!!

We need healthcare reform in America. No child should be fed popcorn for dinner because mom had to choose between medicine and food. Housing and medicine. The car payment or medicine. The electric bill or medicine. I’m sick of choosing between medical care and my family’s needs. I’m sick of feeling guilty for being sick AND broke.

Isn’t being sick tough enough???

Copy this, print it and hand it to your friend who says, socialized medicine would be worse. NOTHING is worse than losing every last penny to a medical nightmare. Nothing is worse than seeing your child cry because she’s hungry and you can’t afford food because you paid doctors. And you don’t meet the low income requirements for the food pantry, so no help there. Good thing you have popcorn this week. We’ll buy food next week, sweetie. Don't cry.

We make too much money to qualify for assistance, and not enough money to actually pull this off. And it never stops. Ever. Until I’m dead, or America reforms healthcare, which will happen just after hell freezes over. I’m starting to think I’ll get my new powerchair when hell freezes over!

Take it from someone who has been in the trenches for ten years. America's health care system sucks. Damn, I’m mad! I’m gonna go play my cello and calm down.

[DavidM]

Russian, (This person says he/she is in Russia yet talks as if they aren't involved directly with the healthcare system)

In Russia there is a long waiting list for free care and the quality, I've heard, is not good. Brutal in fact. Most Russians now splurge and pay for private clinics if they can afford to (more and more can). Private clinics are still cheaper than the US, by quite a large margin I believe. We also have western clinics, which charge the same as the US. Care in the Russian private clinics and western clinics is roughly the same, but the western clinics have prettier offices.

[DavidM]

Tom, for years I have heard the lawsuit excuse as an "end-of-argument" to the issue of high cost. The truth is that it isn't!  What Doctors pay in insurance is a small fraction of what they make. Yes they would have you believe els-wise. Where is the evidence? Show me a doctor who is going  into another profession because they just can't make ends meet! Go to the parking lot at St. Judes, go to the "Doctors Only" section. How many cars do you see under 60 grand?  Listen to their conversation in the "Doctors Only" section of the cafeteria. How many are vacationing in state, in country this summer? What you hear are things like, "Monte Carlo, Tuscany," etc... But when they condescend to the lowly people like us they say things like, "Boy can you believe the price of gas these days!"  Tom why do you always side with the people who do not represent your best interest!?