Sicko

[Mark C.]

  There is a recent event in the news that might be worth considering for those who are advocates of Socialized medicine.

   This event regards the bombing attempts in England and Scotland that seem to have been the work of Medical workers in Great Britain who were in the country with foreign work visas.  You see, under socialized medicine the pay for doctors is not very attractive to the natives and so the country has to import foreign workers who are willing to accept a low level of pay.

   (We don't have that problem here because the higher pay in the USA attracts the brightest and the best who are paid on the basis of their achievement.)

   In accepting these immigrants from radicalized Isalmic countries Europe has opened the door to the kind of dangerous beliefs that have no thought of assimilation. 

   The private sector is often attacked as being based on human greed vs. a spirit of philanthropy that puts human suffering above making a profit.  I guess in a perfect world, where humanity can be reformed to fit into some kind of social system that is not-for-profit medical care in nature, we would be able to find all kinds of volunteers to work for low pay.

  I'd rather pay up to get the very best doctor that I can afford, vs. the cheapest one we can locate from the 3rd World (who might want to blow me up)---- even if that greedy doctor's only motive is to make a good living.

                                                               God bless,  Mark C.       

[DavidM]

   Marc, I can't believe that you connected terrorists to low pay!  Have you actually looked up their pay scale? (Not terrorists, doctors!)a joke! The argument that U.K. doctors make really low pay in England is taken on by Moore in the movie. He doesn't just quote numbers he takes you into the home of a very young doctor and shows you his standard of living. I believe he was somewhere around 150 k? I could be low on this.


  Tom, I am well aware that the poor get free food. Moore's argument time and time again is "Working Class Americans"  People who have healthcare coverage in America are finding out time and time again that their coverage doesn't cover their cost! 


 Moore's argument:

            Healthcare in the U.S. is ranked 37th in the world! Is supported by the facts! Also the contributions of people from all over the world to this thread. 

Your counter argument:

             "Other countries have long lines, poor services, attract terrorists and will destroy Italy" have yet to show any real substance.  Where are your facts?

           Tom, I accept your conviction that others shouldn't be expected to pay for your daughter's cancer. It is a real blessing that your insurance did cover it! However other countries have adopted a policy to cover their citizens regardless their ability to pay. I would think this is in the best interest of all. )possibly in line with the example of Christ?)


  I think a truthful argument would focus on money! This is the obvious bottom line!  Why can't you accept this?


           

             

[Oscar]

Dave,

             "Other countries have long lines, poor services, attract terrorists and will destroy Italy" have yet to show any real substance.  Where are your facts?

1. I have read web articles about doctor shortages in Canada and England by simply googling "criticism of government provided healthcare".

2. The facts on the "destruction" of Italy, and the rest of Europe for that matter were contained in the article I linked.  BTW, what I said was Europe is dying, not that someone was going to destroy it.  The faithless, hopeless, hedonistic Europeans are doing quite a fine job all by themselves.

The article stated that 15 European countries have birthrates below 1.3 children per couple.  It takes a birthrate of a minimum of 2.1 children per couple just to maintain a country's population at its current level.  1.3 is a disastrous rate of decline.  The article also said that only one European country even has a chance of turning the decline around.

Our own birthrate, btw, is about 1.9 children per couple.  Not quite high enough to stay even, but because of immigration our population grows steadily.  I wonder if the influx of Mexicans and other hispanics will raise the birthrate in the future.

This is not new information, Dave.  I first learned of the decline when I read "The Birth Dearth" by Ben Wattenberg of the Heritage Foundation back around 1990.

Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

1. I have read web articles about doctor shortages in Canada and England by simply googling "criticism of government provided healthcare".


Again, I have agreed that there are problems in other countries but are they comparable with the fact that someone in the U.S. loses their home?  is charged 60 grand to have a finger reattached? is denied services despite the fact they responded to the 911 disaster? The answer is no!



This is not new information, Dave.  I first learned of the decline when I read "The Birth Dearth" by Ben Wattenberg of the Heritage Foundation back around 1990.



I would like to read this book. Its premise, "Europe will die in 200 years because Europeans are not having enough children." seems incredibly far reaching, not considering a multitude of factors. The Heritage Foundation?  Who are they?

[Oscar]

1. I have read web articles about doctor shortages in Canada and England by simply googling "criticism of government provided healthcare".


Again, I have agreed that there are problems in other countries but are they comparable with the fact that someone in the U.S. loses their home?  is charged 60 grand to have a finger reattached? is denied services despite the fact they responded to the 911 disaster? The answer is no!



This is not new information, Dave.  I first learned of the decline when I read "The Birth Dearth" by Ben Wattenberg of the Heritage Foundation back around 1990.



I would like to read this book. Its premise, "Europe will die in 200 years because Europeans are not having enough children." seems incredibly far reaching, not considering a multitude of factors. The Heritage Foundation?  Who are they?

Dave,

The "lose your home" argument seems quite flawed to me.  Let's say that a couple is sitting on, say, $300,000 in equity in their house.  They suffer some catastrophic illness, and that is their only large financial resource they have to pay for medical expenses.

Another couple rents their house, but have $300,000 in various investments.  So the amount of financial resources is the same.

Would you say the folks who have their money invested in a house should not have to pay, but the one's with the money in stocks, bonds, and such should have to pay?

Or is your argument that no one should have to pay their bills?

Regarding the statement you made about the Birth Dearth:  I learned about the problem in general from the book.  I learned about the problem in Italy from PBS!  This is not some weird idea only believed by right wing nuts.

Do the math.  Let's say a country had 200 million people of childbearing age. and a birthrate of 2.0 children per couple.  The birthrate is an overall figure.  Some folks have 4 kids, some have none, but it averages out to 2.0.

In this country this group of 100 million couples would produce 200 million kids. They would have replaced themselves. The population, over time, would remain pretty stable.

In another country with an equal group of childbearing-age people and a birthrate of 1.3 per couple, they would produce 130 million kids...a drop of 70 million in that demographic group. 

In the following generation with the same birthrate, the 65 million couples would produce only 84.5 million kids.  That is a drop of 58% in only two generations...say 60 years or so.

Keep this up or 5 generations or so., and its bye bye to your country!!  Its all in the math.

Remember, right now there are 15 countries in Europe with birthrates BELOW 1.3 per couple.

Hmmmm.  I wonder how one says "lebensraum" in Chinese?   


Tom Maddux



Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

My argument:


         The U.S.A. is by far the richest country in the world, therefore it should be at the forefront of services to its citizenry. Yet we are 37th!  What?  Why? Because human beings in the U.S.A. are a commodity, they are something to be used for profit! It is more important to have medical institutions, companies, shareholders, doctors make lots of money in our country while in other countries such as Canada, France, England etc the value of their citizenry is given a priority above money.  (correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't Jesus be closer to this side of the issue?)

[Oscar]

Dave,

Here is an interesting link.  The author, who says he is an economic adviser to Barak Obama, agrees with you about problems in our health care system.  (btw, so do I)

However, he disagrees with the idea that we should scrap our whole system and replace it with a national healthcare system.

He agrees with me: Reform over replacement.

http://slate.com/id/2169454/

Tom Maddux

[Oscar]

Dave,

37th?  Says who?  Oh, so WHO said it.  (World Health Organization).

I will refrain from going off on a tangent by describing the corruption and incompetence of the UN, and simply post a link which details the manner at which the WHO arrived at this statistic.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2665_129/ai_66011865

Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

I just have discovered the gospel of Thomas!


Thomas 3:42-45


        And in those days the sick with all manner of diseases came unto him saying 'Heal us master." And as the multitude pressed amongst them, Thomas, one of the twelve cried out, "All right, all right, whose got cash?" "Do you expect to be healed for free?" 

[DavidM]

45-46
  Then commeth forth another amongst them who rebuked Thomas by saying, "See that these have not to pay with?" "Search the scriptures!"  "When did the prophets charge for that which God hath given freely?" Wherin Thomas did regret and was therewith silent!

[Mark C.]

   Hezekiah 9:11------ It came to pass, that one day a lazy sluggard tripped and broke his leg as he came from much strong drink with his comrades.  Next door was his hard working neighbor who came over to help and carried him to a place where his wounds could be ministered unto.  The lazy drunkard was not thankful, nor was he repentant regarding his evil ways.  He just expected that others would take care of him and that he would never have to take responsibility for his own life.  The wise neighbor then realized that the most loving thing he could do for the foolish one is to next time let him face the facts of his mistakes and thus develop character that places value on preparing for ones own future.  After the wise man read the Proverbs, "go to the ant thou sluggard-----" he went away very happy in the knowledge that his society is better served by good individual character in it's members vs. craddle to grave entitlement programs for all!

                                                                   God bless,  Mark C.

[DavidM]

        Yes, Marc you bring up a very good point. (Maybe this should be on a different thread?) As a school teacher I am constantly riding those students who are lazy, irresponsible, slobs, those who expect others just to carry them through every assignment. It would be so much easier for me to teach in a school were individuals had to pay out of their own pockets.

I think we've beat this dead horse enough.

[Oscar]

45-46
  Then commeth forth another amongst them who rebuked Thomas by saying, "See that these have not to pay with?" "Search the scriptures!"  "When did the prophets charge for that which God hath given freely?" Wherin Thomas did regret and was therewith silent!

47-48.

"But then Thomas remembered the words of the Lord Jesus when he said, "beware and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions."

Then Thomas said to the sick, "If thou art truly poor we shall help thee.  But if you are merely wealthy, indulgent American Liberals who wish to preserve their luxurious lifestyle by shifting legitimate responsibilities onto others by using taxation to confiscate the money produced by thier labor....then hit the road Jack."

TM

[DavidM]

Wip that dead animal! Yeeeea! smack!

[Mark C.]

Dave,

 I propose universal health care for all animals as well.  Your call to "whip horses" is clearly an abusive attitude and one with which I strongly disagree!! :rofl:

                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.