The Assembly Experience: What were the GOOD things you learned?

[Oscar]

Folks,

Many have discussed the pain and suffering aspects of their assembly experience.  Some have spoken of problems that followed them out.

Tomorrow night I will attend a planning meeting for a church plant that I am currently involved in.  I will be sharing some ideas about outreach.

Guess where I learned them?  That's right, in the Assembly. 

It will be interesting to see what "normal" Christians think of these ideas.  Of course, I will remove elements that I now see as weird or counterproductive.

This will be interesting.

How about your own experience.  What good things did you learn?

Tom Maddux

[moonflower2]

.......hmmmmmm..........

[outdeep]

A few come to mind:

1.   I have taught Sunday School at times and I am on the list of those who give devotions at my work.  While I had to unlearn lots of ideas about studying the Bible and preaching I picked up in the Assembly years, the basic ability to get up in front of people and share some encouraging thoughts from the Bible I learned from the Assembly.  Many who may have the gift of teaching, exhortation or encouragement may never feel they are able to do such a thing since they are not trained in seminary.  The Assembly helped me see though that thinking and be able to talk to a large group of people if necessary.

2.   The Assembly taught me to value books and teachers outside the mainstream Christian publishing.  In the Assembly, I was introduced to Francis Schaeffer, C. H. Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, A. W. Tozer and many others who are not popular at Wal-Mart or even the local Christian bookstore.  Admittedly, I probably don’t have much of an appetite for such mystics as Nee anymore.  But the realization that there is more out there than “Left Behind”, “The Prayer of Jabez”, “Purpose-Driven” and “Your Best Life Now” is not something every Christian has.

3.   Many Christians in churches operate on the idea that they are involved in a ministry that is basically run by the church staff.  If I have nursery duty, I show up for my time but let the Children’s Ministry Director will worry about it if we run out of diapers.  The idea of taking personal ownership of a ministry is something I learned in the Assembly.

4.   I know that disciplines of the Christian life include reading and studying the Bible, prayer, worship and fellowship with other believers.  I learned this in the Assembly.  Not all Christians appreciate this.

5.   Though the Assembly had many ineffective ideas in this regard, thinking strategically as to how to reach the community about you – whether in overt evangelism or in serving others – is something I learned in the Assembly.

6.   I came to appreciate hymns as well as their history in the Assembly.  I appreciate some of the contemporary stuff as well but I feel bad that many in the church never get decent exposure to some of the great ideas captured in the songs from the past.

One may object to this, “But, Dave.  Many people learned all these things who ever heard of the Assembly.”  That is absolutely true.  I renounce the Assembly snobbery that felt they had something no one else had.  But credit is given where credit is due.  God used the Assembly to teach me these things.

[Mark C.]

 Interesting question Tom,    (Moonflower's "hmmmmmmm" was my first response as well.)

 I have been trying to think of some "GOOD things" that I learned while with GG and company, but am afraid that the bad kind of makes it difficult for me.  What your question brings to mind is the verse "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, etc."  I'm sure the Pharisees did some good things and might even have been pretty good at outreach (you know, crossing land and sea to make converts).  However, that little bit of leaven they had kind of spoiled the whole religious loaf they were baking.

  What ideas re. outreach did you present to this new church?  I hope you did not include the time we went to Van Nuys blvd. with the stool and designated certain preachers to stand up and preach.  We soon learned that it hurt to get knocked off the stool and pelted by pennies (well, I guess I did learn something as we learned to put big bros. around the stool and also got pretty good at ducking those coins!   You know, I still have a dent in my head from one of those pennies!   Do you still have the bugle you used to blow as we marched down the Blvd. among the mass of not very adoring youths gathered there?

  The good was always there in the Gospel and in those there who were sincerely trying to follow God.  As much of that and the influence of them in my Assm. experience is what was truly good and to be kept and treasured.  The methods, and or styles, only trigger the memory of the abusive organizers and their very insincere and corrupt management of the group.

 My preference is to make a clean break from these old techniques while learning to focus on the kind of substantive issues that can really make a positive difference in me (however, I didn't learn these until I left).

                                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

 

[Joe Sperling]

Mark said below:

What ideas re. outreach did you present to this new church?  I hope you did not include the time we went to Van Nuys blvd. with the stool and designated certain preachers to stand up and preach.  We soon learned that it hurt to get knocked off the stool and pelted by pennies (well, I guess I did learn something as we learned to put big bros. around the stool and also got pretty good at ducking those coins!   You know, I still have a dent in my head from one of those pennies!   Do you still have the bugle you used to blow as we marched down the Blvd. among the mass of not very adoring youths gathered there?

An imaginary setting:
     
Tom begins to speak, facing a group of about 50 church members sitting in pews, as he stands in front of a large sign which reads "OUTREACH METHODS(Lesson 1. Street Marching)":

"So, what we do is print up a bunch of signs that say "Wonderful Counselor", "El Shaddai" or
something similar. Each member will hold up a sign as I lead the march blowing my bugel. Then, when we
get close to a group of bikers, one of the members will stand on a stool with a megaphone and begin
to preach loudly. We will have small shields that will help us to ward off the pelting pennies that will be thrown at us. The small bruises we receive from the pennies are a small price to pay compared to the massive salvation we may witness as a result of our faithfulness".

The crowd of 50 has dwindled to one person with a "Turn or Burn" T-shirt on. He pumps his fist and says "I'm with you a 100 percent!! We can go in my car. It has flames of fire painted on the side and says "Repent or go to Hell!!"

     Just kidding---but I did use a megaphone and preached at bikers on Van Nuys Blvd. a couple of times as we "paraded" down the street.  Never saw any of them get saved though. But I was able to complete a lot of my penny collection catalog though---was always hoping someone would throw a 1909SVDB penny at me but it never happened.

[Oscar]

Mark said below:

What ideas re. outreach did you present to this new church?  I hope you did not include the time we went to Van Nuys blvd. with the stool and designated certain preachers to stand up and preach.  We soon learned that it hurt to get knocked off the stool and pelted by pennies (well, I guess I did learn something as we learned to put big bros. around the stool and also got pretty good at ducking those coins!   You know, I still have a dent in my head from one of those pennies!   Do you still have the bugle you used to blow as we marched down the Blvd. among the mass of not very adoring youths gathered there?

An imaginary setting:
     
Tom begins to speak, facing a group of about 50 church members sitting in pews, as he stands in front of a large sign which reads "OUTREACH METHODS(Lesson 1. Street Marching)":

"So, what we do is print up a bunch of signs that say "Wonderful Counselor", "El Shaddai" or
something similar. Each member will hold up a sign as I lead the march blowing my bugel. Then, when we
get close to a group of bikers, one of the members will stand on a stool with a megaphone and begin
to preach loudly. We will have small shields that will help us to ward off the pelting pennies that will be thrown at us. The small bruises we receive from the pennies are a small price to pay compared to the massive salvation we may witness as a result of our faithfulness".

The crowd of 50 has dwindled to one person with a "Turn or Burn" T-shirt on. He pumps his fist and says "I'm with you a 100 percent!! We can go in my car. It has flames of fire painted on the side and says "Repent or go to Hell!!"

     Just kidding---but I did use a megaphone and preached at bikers on Van Nuys Blvd. a couple of times as we "paraded" down the street.  Never saw any of them get saved though. But I was able to complete a lot of my penny collection catalog though---was always hoping someone would throw a 1909SVDB penny at me but it never happened.

Joe,

There were certainly too many signs used, weren't there.  We decided that we would just parade with one really BIG sign that says JEHOVAH TSIDKINU in letters two feet high. 

That will get the essential message across for sure!

Instead of a teeny little stool we are going to get a set of stilts that will make all our preachers 10 feet high.  That will get their attention! 

NOT!
 :rofl:

Tom Maddux

[Marty]

A few come to mind:

1.   I have taught Sunday School at times and I am on the list of those who give devotions at my work.  While I had to unlearn lots of ideas about studying the Bible and preaching I picked up in the Assembly years, the basic ability to get up in front of people and share some encouraging thoughts from the Bible I learned from the Assembly.  Many who may have the gift of teaching, exhortation or encouragement may never feel they are able to do such a thing since they are not trained in seminary.  The Assembly helped me see though that thinking and be able to talk to a large group of people if necessary.

2.   The Assembly taught me to value books and teachers outside the mainstream Christian publishing.  In the Assembly, I was introduced to Francis Schaeffer, C. H. Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, A. W. Tozer and many others who are not popular at Wal-Mart or even the local Christian bookstore.  Admittedly, I probably don’t have much of an appetite for such mystics as Nee anymore.  But the realization that there is more out there than “Left Behind”, “The Prayer of Jabez”, “Purpose-Driven” and “Your Best Life Now” is not something every Christian has.

3.   Many Christians in churches operate on the idea that they are involved in a ministry that is basically run by the church staff.  If I have nursery duty, I show up for my time but let the Children’s Ministry Director will worry about it if we run out of diapers.  The idea of taking personal ownership of a ministry is something I learned in the Assembly.

4.   I know that disciplines of the Christian life include reading and studying the Bible, prayer, worship and fellowship with other believers.  I learned this in the Assembly.  Not all Christians appreciate this.

5.   Though the Assembly had many ineffective ideas in this regard, thinking strategically as to how to reach the community about you – whether in overt evangelism or in serving others – is something I learned in the Assembly.

6.   I came to appreciate hymns as well as their history in the Assembly.  I appreciate some of the contemporary stuff as well but I feel bad that many in the church never get decent exposure to some of the great ideas captured in the songs from the past.

One may object to this, “But, Dave.  Many people learned all these things who ever heard of the Assembly.”  That is absolutely true.  I renounce the Assembly snobbery that felt they had something no one else had.  But credit is given where credit is due.  God used the Assembly to teach me these things.

A very good post. I can say amen to all of it and add one more thing. Because of all the preaching and bible study I became quite familiar with my Bible. I never would have had the personal discipline to do that on my own or in todays contemporary church.

[Joe Sperling]

Marty said:
A very good post. I can say amen to all of it and add one more thing. Because of all the preaching and bible study I became quite familiar with my Bible. I never would have had the personal discipline to do that on my own or in todays contemporary church.

I would agree. The only thing I would point out is that Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are quite "familiar" with their Bibles also---BUT, as we know, they are familiar with them as it aligns
with the teachings of their specific cults. One can learn a lot of discipline, and have a lot of discipline, and still
be completely missing the boat.

I became very familiar with my Bible, and I read it a lot more---however, much of the page-turning
and teaching revolved around the dogma we were receiving there---so, though I read the Bible a
lot more, my understanding of it was skewed by a legalistic teaching which warped the very foundation of what the Scriptures were actually saying. I basically had to "unlearn" much of what I had been "taught" there after I left.
I was well disciplined, and Biblically knowledgeable----but, it was according to Assembly teaching (much of it rather "mystical" to say the least).

I do agree with Dave below concerning reading the great authors (his point #2 below)---but I have to say that I sought out the great Puritan authors, C.H. Spurgeon, etc. because of the dryness of the Assembly, and the great fear it's teachings generated in my heart. I knew that the teaching I was receiving somehow just could not be right---and began to read far more orthodox teaching. I loved **Andrew Murray because he stressed a very close relationship with the Son of God, and reminded how kind and loving Jesus was. I read the other authors to gain more assurance that salvation could not be lost. Many others in the Assembly have similar testimonies about being driven to the orthodox writers due to heretical teaching also. Some of these were Assembly kids too! They grew up their whole life in the Assembly, but somehow the Lord was speaking to them about the heretical nature of what they were being taught, and they "knew" it just couldn't be correct.

So---what I am saying is these things were "good"--to read the Bible more, to read the great authors, to learn to evangelize---but the reasons for doing so may not be much different than the reason the JW's do the same.  I'm sure many of the JW's, escaping from that system, can look back and say "I learned to read the Bible, I learned outreach there, etc."  ---BUT, it doesn't make the system that they learned it under "good".  "I learned to read my Bible more, therefore the Assembly must have been a good place"---that statement would be faulty logic.
"I learned daily discipline to have a morning time in the Assembly, therefore it must have been a good place"--again, faulty logic.

Much of the "good" I learned unfortunately came about trying to escape the "evil" teaching that had entrapped me, or from religiously pursuing a higher standard (I will have a morning time, read my Bible more, attend more meetings, pray more, evangelize more) that came from "legalistic" hope of attainment.

So, did I learn "good things" from the Assembly? Undoubtedly. Did it make the Assembly a good place? Absolutely not.  They are "good things" in the sense that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are the called according to his purpose". The Lord can take the worst situation and bring good out of it---survivors of the Assembly are a case in point.

**P.S. I don't know wheter you can put Andrew Murray into the "orthodox teachers" category---his writings just comforted me greatly--especially a little book called "The True Vine"---in it he speaks of the great love Jesus has for his disciples, and how greatly he desires fellowship and closeness to them. It was a source of great comfort to me in the midst of the legalistic quagmire I was in at that time.

[Marty]

I would agree. The only thing I would point out is that Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are quite "familiar" with their Bibles also---BUT, as we know, they are familiar with them as it aligns
with the teachings of their specific cults. One can learn a lot of discipline, and have a lot of discipline, and still
be completely missing the boat.

I became very familiar with my Bible, and I read it a lot more---however, much of the page-turning
and teaching revolved around the dogma we were receiving there---so, though I read the Bible a
lot more, my understanding of it was skewed by a legalistic teaching which warped the very foundation of what the Scriptures were actually saying. I basically had to "unlearn" much of what I had been "taught" there after I left.
I was well disciplined, and Biblically knowledgeable----but, it was according to Assembly teaching (much of it rather "mystical" to say the least).

Thats an unfortunate testimony Joe.

I am so grateful that "the Word of God is living and powerful" and that the gospel "is the power of God to salvation". No morman or jw can take that away. No George or system can thwart that. No trial or hardship or legalism or bondage is greater than that. Perhaps some day the Lord will reveal these things to you. Perhaps some day you will learn to read the scriptures for the mere enjoyment of it. Perhaps someday you will be able to just rest in the reality that Christ died for your sins. That all the hardship you have had to endure at the hands of others is nothing compared to the price Christ paid for you on the cross. Perhaps someday.

[Joe Sperling]

Marty---

You said:

Thats an unfortunate testimony Joe.

I am so grateful that "the Word of God is living and powerful" and that the gospel "is the power of God to salvation". No morman or jw can take that away. No George or system can thwart that. No trial or hardship or legalism or bondage is greater than that. Perhaps some day the Lord will reveal these things to you. Perhaps some day you will learn to read the scriptures for the mere enjoyment of it. Perhaps someday you will be able to just rest in the reality that Christ died for your sins. That all the hardship you have had to endure at the hands of others is nothing compared to the price Christ paid for you on the cross. Perhaps someday.

I had left a larger post but deleted it. You apparently totally misunderstood my earlier post. I was talking about the past.  I was talking about the ability to study the Bible, know it backwards and forwards, and still have it be for nought. That is why I brought up the JW's and Mormons.  These were examples Marty.  Here's another example:  The Pharisees knew the Torah front and back. They knew the LAW to a "tee". They could most likely say "We as Pharisees learned a form of discipline and knowledge of the Torah that can't be found in contemporary synagogues". (Marty--you had said that you learned to read the Bible and learned discipline that couldn't be found in "contemporary churches"). Yet, after all of this knowledge and discipline, Jesus called these same people "whitened sepulchers filled with dead men's bones". How could he say this about such Biblically oriented, "spiritually-disciplined" individuals?  The same way He could say this about some of the people in the Assembly!!

I was not saying in any way that the Word of God is not powerful, or that it did not have the Power of salvation. I was saying that men can manipulate it, teach heresy, and lead people astray. And heresy is definitely something someone will need to "unlearn", rather than look back upon fondly. I was stating that at that time I read the Bible a lot, but I read it according to what was being taught in the Assembly. I learned how to be a living, walking, puffed-up Pharisee. I had to completely unlearn what I had been taught. This was my point.

[Marty]

Marty---

You said:

Thats an unfortunate testimony Joe.

I am so grateful that "the Word of God is living and powerful" and that the gospel "is the power of God to salvation". No morman or jw can take that away. No George or system can thwart that. No trial or hardship or legalism or bondage is greater than that. Perhaps some day the Lord will reveal these things to you. Perhaps some day you will learn to read the scriptures for the mere enjoyment of it. Perhaps someday you will be able to just rest in the reality that Christ died for your sins. That all the hardship you have had to endure at the hands of others is nothing compared to the price Christ paid for you on the cross. Perhaps someday.

I had left a larger post but deleted it. You apparently totally misunderstood my earlier post. I was talking about the past.  I was talking about the ability to study the Bible, know it backwards and forwards, and still have it be for nought. That is why I brought up the JW's and Mormons.  These were examples Marty.  Here's another example:  The Pharisees knew the Torah front and back. They knew the LAW to a "tee". They could most likely say "We as Pharisees learned a form of discipline and knowledge of the Torah that can't be found in contemporary synagogues". (Marty--you had said that you learned to read the Bible and learned discipline that couldn't be found in "contemporary churches"). Yet, after all of this knowledge and discipline, Jesus called these same people "whitened sepulchers filled with dead men's bones". How could he say this about such Biblically oriented, "spiritually-disciplined" individuals?  The same way He could say this about some of the people in the Assembly!!

I was not saying in any way that the Word of God is not powerful, or that it did not have the Power of salvation. I was saying that men can manipulate it, teach heresy, and lead people astray. And heresy is definitely something someone will need to "unlearn", rather than look back upon fondly. I was stating that at that time I read the Bible a lot, but I read it according to what was being taught in the Assembly. I learned how to be a living, walking, puffed-up Pharisee. I had to completely unlearn what I had been taught. This was my point.

Joe, in the context of the heading "What were the good things you leaned," a discipline, I do not naturally have, to read the scriptures is something I appreciate. That has brought a familiarity to the Bible that many in the church do not have. That is revealed in many social settings when there is a discussion and I share a Bible verse. Someone invariably will say you should be a pastor or ask if I were ever a pastor. That is a sad commentary on the state of the church. I do not for a moment pretend to possess an ability to pastor a church nor am I boasting about any other scholarly ability. I am just saying I am thankful that I can relish in the comfort of wonderful verses the Lord has shown me, not by my doing whatsoever. I may be a pharisee but that doesn't negate the Word of God.

[Joe Sperling]

I am just saying I am thankful that I can relish in the comfort of wonderful verses the Lord has shown me, not by my doing whatsoever. I may be a pharisee but that doesn't negate the Word of God.

Marty---

I am glad you can take comfort in the Word of God. I read and take great comfort in the Word
of God myself. I've been reading through Matthew recently, and through the Psalms also. I'm not
sure where you get the idea that I am saying one can negate the Word of God, as I have said nothing of the sort. All I said is that it is possible to study the Bible for hours each day, and yet if you are believing the wrong thing your study is really for nought. That's why I mentioned the JW's and Mormons. Is it good to read the Bible? Of course. The JW's and Mormons have learned discipline to read their Bibles and literature. Is this habit good? Yes--it is a good "habit" to read the Bible. Is what they are believing as they read a good thing?  No, it isn't. The JW's believe Jesus is not God, and the Mormons believe they can become gods themselves. All of their "Bible studying" is based on heresy, so all of the "discipline" they are learning is basically for nought. Though, if they became Christians one day these habits might be considered "good" in the long run. But, because we learned a good habit can we say "Well, maybe the place wasn't so bad after all--I did learn some good habits while there--in fact, I learned things I would never have learned in your regular church".

Would that be a true statement?  Hmmm....  My friend Lefty subscribes to the same logic.  Lefty?


"Lefty" Carrizosa:   "Let me aks all of youse somethin'. Is weight liftin' and exercise good for youse? Of course it is! It's good for da body and da mind. I does it daily and you know where's I learned it? In jail. Yeah, in jail I learned to exercise daily, and I got in da best shape of my life. Believe me, if I hadn't a gone to jail I woulda never learned to be disciplined like dat. I wouldn't a learned dat anywhere's else--and dat's a sad statement when you thinks of today's average person. It was good because I'm not a very disciplined guy. Naw--I
never woulda gotten inta dat kinda shape in your average society. Lookin' back, I'm glad I went
to jail, 'cause I never woulda learned the disciplines I learned if I hadn't a gone there. You know..come to think of it...Jail ain't such a bad place after all".

Thanks for the comments Lefty, we appreciate it.

The above is going way out on a limb and I realize it. There is a big difference between jail and the Assembly(or places like the Assembly)---however, the reasoning is very much the same as those who try to say "I learned good habits in the Ass'y, so despite all the heretical teaching, legalism, wife-beating, leadership carousing, money pilfering, etc. it really wasn't such a bad place after all".

My point is---you can learn good habits even when in jail. Does that make the experience a "good" one or the place a "good place"? Absolutely not. Because of your confinement you may learn habits in jail you never would have learned if you were in "regular" society--even good ones.

Yes--one may have learned "good habits" in the Assembly despite bad teaching. But don't use those good habits to say "AMEN" to "good habits or things" as though it justifies the goodness of the place itself, because that would be an error and totally false.

[outdeep]

I think folks may be answering this question in two different ways:

One way is, "What good things did I learn in the Assembly that I couldn't have learned somewhere else that made my stay in the Assembly 'worth it'"?  To this folks are answering, "not much" and putting the question that way, I agree.  I could have become very familiar with my Bible if I went to Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa.

The way others (including myself) approached the question is, "How did God Providentially use the Assembly to teach me some good things in spite of the fact that it was a dysfunctional and misleading system?"  To which I would answer, "it wasn't the school I would have chosen but it did get me from point A to point B in some areas."

This latter question was driven home to me this last week.  Loretta and I was on my son's Naval ship for a tiger cruse between Hawaii and San Diego.  When I saw what my son had accomplished, the awards he was getting, the career growth and maturity he obtained (at twenty years of age), I was envious.  He is accomplishing his independence through the Navy and has things of substance to show for it at a very young age. 

When I was the very same age, I was pursuing the Assembly - partly "to get on with the Lord" and partly (I see this in retrospect) to establish independence from my mother's controlling influence.  The Assembly was the way out of my house and mother's apron strings (normal for a young man to feel) and it provided me the "world view in a box" since I didn't not have the emotional maturity to make decisions on my own.

This week, I felt jyped.  If I knew what I knew now, I would have joined the Navy after college instead of moving into a brother's house.  I would have used that as my transition out of my mom's control and dysfunctional family instead of the even-more-dysfunctional Assembly route I took.

As I reflected on this and prayed over these thoughts, I came to this conclusions:  In spite of the fact that it wasn't my school of choice and in spite of the fact that I don't believe that God caused the evil of the Assembly, I am confident that God used this broken, dysfunctional church to teach me good things and bring me to maturity.  Any route I went, I would have had to learn the same lessons.  Why God allowed me to go this route, I don't know but what man meant for evil, God used for good.

So I think there was good ideas in the Assembly and I think I can say that without having to constantly justify "but...but...but.. it was a really bad place and don't forget that".  I don't think many out there would go back and choose the Assembly again knowing what we know today.  But that doesn't mean that there were never flashes of insight.

Examples of good ideas:  I think churches using street fairs are a great idea to reach out into the community - I just wouldn't do it in the obnoxious way the Assembly did.  I think coffee houses (like at the beach) are a good idea to promote conversation - I just wouldn't feel I had to jam the three point gospel down their throat.  I think there might be a way to effectively use tracts and printed publications on college campuses - I just would think through the track's content better and wouldn't mass distribute them to folks who weren't interested.  I think going to places where young people congregate or college campuses can still be effective - however, I would listen and be in conversation with the person and not worry if I shared my verse or my three point gospel; I would be more relational than preach-mode.

So, there are some good things I've learned.  Yes, Yes, yes.  I understand that it doesn't justify or overrule the self-centeredness of George and the wrong ideas we've learned.  But, they are still good things I've learned.

[Mark C.]

Hi Dave!

 Congratulations on your Navy son and his accomplishments!  (Ask him if he likes the food because our company supplies all the vittles for the 7th fleet based in San Diego.)

 I think it is important to be careful not to spin the interpretation of the actual events as they occurred in the group.  Marty's view, as well as many former members, demonstrates that importance.  Without an honest evaluation a former member can't be clear as to where the real dysfunctions are located and as a result carry their unhealthy views/practices into their post Assembly lives.

  An example of this can be found in looking at how the new church at Jerusalem (as well as all of the other churches in the NT) who were cursed with those members who wanted to carry over their Pharisee past into the church age.  Paul's biggest struggle was against this group that wanted to emphasize "all the good" disciplines that they learned in their religious past.

           Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."  Acts 15:5 

   What is really "bad" about what these Pharisees wanted?  Sounds like the above God given religious disciplines could "force" lazy Gentile believers into a more dedicated commitment to "good" behaviors and attitudes.  And, maybe, the new church could use some of the tried and proved methods of the Pharisee in "crossing land and sea" to make new converts?  You can bet this party of believers thought themselves superior to the other church members who didn't have "the strong commitment" they had.

  The Apostles' answer?  Absolutely not!!!  Their rejection of this concept (Acts 15:6-11) was very strong and attacked the whole idea of trying to "find the good in the former system" and strongly made the point that "Now, then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No!------" 

 The Apostles would allow no quarter at all to the concept of trying to bring good out of the former bad system and stated that to do so would be an insult to God and a denial of the true nature of the damage it caused to "our fathers" and what such a concept could produce in their own churches.

  I realize that each individual needs to learn from our Assembly past, and that there is a great opportunity to gain something from that evaluation, but trying to extract and use what is "good or bad" in the teaching and practices of that group and bring them over to our new freedom is the wrong mentality because the GG group was founded on principles that were essentially in error.  Like an old hotel in Vegas sometimes it's just better to implode the whole building and start over with new construction  .

  The "good" is discovered in finding the true God and the wholly new experience of living our Christian lives on the basis of grace.  Those former members who focus on "the low level of discipline" among the churches they attend, and whom think highly of themselves due to their Assembly training, most certainly do not understand the grace of God.

  This was the advice of the Apostles and a wise one for us to follow as well (imho).

                                      God Bless,  Mark C. 

     
     
 

[outdeep]

Hi Mark,

As I listed below, I did learn some good things in the Assembly that I use to this day and I don't think acknowledging that is spinning the facts as you suggest.

Requiring the Gentiles to be circumcised is not something I would consider to be one of the "good things".

Lord bless,

-Dave