The Assembly Experience: What were the GOOD things you learned?

[trac4yt]

The reversal procedure, assumed unadvised.

"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised.." (1Co 7:18)

[Mark C.]

Hi Dave!

  I know that you are not "spinning the facts", and my use of that phrase was for the benefit of those we all know who wear the rose colored glasses re. their Assembly past and who are always trying to defend the Assembly (sans GG) as a group worthy of praise.

  The problem with asking the question described in the title of this thread is that it is a leading one that attempts to force a former member to search for good things in the Assembly system.  As a system, it was totally corrupt and abusive.

  My use of the Acts 15 passage was to demonstrate a principle re. two different systems: The old Pharisaical one vs. the new one based on grace.  The Apostles would not allow for any searching of that religious past looking for "good things" to carry over to the new. 

  My example obviously had nothing to do with circumcision, but it did provide an opportunity for Trac4yt to instruct us in the inadvisability of certain kinds of surgical procedures  !

  Here's a different example of what I'm trying to get at (this time hopefully eliminating opportunities for 'cutting' humor):  Jesus in Rev. 3 exhorts the Church at Laodicea.  Was there any good in that church?  If there was Jesus was not talking about it.  Other of the groups in Rev. had some good things that Jesus mentioned why not Laodicea?

  The key problem with Laodicea was their dishonesty---- their inability to confess to their own inner poverty that separated them from grace.  Jesus call to them was the absolute necessity for them to 'see the bad' and admit to it; most certainly it was not to try and look for good in their past experiences with this church!  This was because the character of the group was controlled by a basic error of heart that tainted everything they did.

  Let's say that we are talking about Mormonism.  Can I find something "good" about them?  Sure, many of them are good moral human beings who share many of our values.  However, the basic errors of their belief system are what we must talk about with them, vs. trying to discuss with them what "good things they have learned" while a Mormon.  Though the Assembly had better theology than Mormons, at the heart the Assembly errors were just as bad (if not worse) because of the practices of the group that kept Jesus standing outside.

  There are so many former Assembly members who still cling to the "GG bad, but Assembly good" idea that by asking the kind of question this thread asks we can reinforce this error in their thinking.  It is like what Mike Almanzor has done with GG where he attempted to "help" him after the Assembly collapse.  What did he accomplish?  A strong stand against GG might actually have so cornered GG that his soul could have been saved, but now he has been strengthened in his self righteous views of self.

  I can eagerly support the fact that there were many wonderful individual believers in this group and admit that I had some wonderful personal experiences in relationship with these.  That Jesus loves former members very much and seeks to build their faith I readily affirm.  All of this is what we need to emphasize to former members, but without an admission that God was very much against the heart and means of the group we will ultimately create an obstruction to recovery. 

  We can't equivocate in our stand re. pressing for that admission (as with Jesus re. Laodicea) if we really care for our Assembly friends who are living in denial.

                                                                God Bless,  Mark C.   

     

   

[Oscar]

Mark,

You said:

The problem with asking the question described in the title of this thread is that it is a leading one that attempts to force a former member to search for good things in the Assembly system.  As a system, it was totally corrupt and abusive.

And:

The key problem with Laodicea was their dishonesty---- their inability to confess to their own inner poverty that separated them from grace.  Jesus call to them was the absolute necessity for them to 'see the bad' and admit to it; most certainly it was not to try and look for good in their past experiences with this church!  This was because the character of the group was controlled by a basic error of heart that tainted everything they did.

In reply to the above I would simply ask one question:  Did you spend nearly twenty years of your life in the assembly and learn nothing worth knowing? Nothing positive?  If so, I'm sorry that happened to you.

I have no interest in justifying or excusing any of the evils perpetrated by the assembly leaders and cultural practices.  I am surprised that you could accuse me of such an attitude!

Do you remember the talk we had after I had left the assembly and you were a leading brother in the Valley?  We ate at Jack in the Box in Northridge.  During our talk I attempted to show you the doctrinal errors we had been taught by GG.  If you had been able to receive what I said at that time you would have avioded experiencing some of the worst things that were done to you. 

The fact is, Mark, that I was attempting to share with you some of the good things I learned during my experience in the assembly.  Among them were: 1. The proper ground of Christian fellowship and the sinfulness of sectarianism. 2. The abslolute necessity of financial openness and accountability.  3. The difference between "breaking of bread" and the Lord's supper.

Those are, and I think you will agree, good things to know.  Like it or not, I learned them during my assembly experience.  God does not abandon his sheep, even if they stray off the path.

So my brother, let's not get our undies in a twist over my little question.   

Many blessings Mark,

Tom Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom!

  I will always remember that day at the Jack-in-the-box and all your other acts of kindness toward me after I left.  That particular day was just another bit of help toward the way out. That also goes for Dave, who ministered great help to me prior to and after leaving the group.  I love both of you guys dearly.

  My response to your question is not directed toward you, or Dave, personally.  Nor am I in some kind of snit, as you suggest (I will ignore the snide comment re. my loins being girded too tightly ).  I hope we can disagree about things, still be friendly, and have a good lively discussion as well.

  My answer was for the Marty's of the post Assembly world that just loved your question and Dave's answer.  I have repeatedly stated why this is important, but apparently you disagree---- and that is okay.

  Back to our conversation prior to my leaving at the Jack-in-the-box:  I think you remember the circumstances of that meeting where you were talking to me about the Valley child molestation situation.  It was that very negative part of our talk that really started me thinking about leaving.  The response of GG, Mark Miller, and Tim McCarthy who excused and defended the molestor brother was the key mover in my thinking at that time. 

  It was the Assembly dysfunctional culture that would defend an abuser and dismiss the injuries to the abused that bothered me deeply.  Not only so, these men used scripture to defend their actions and claimed their decisions flowed out of knowing God's will.  Have any of the above men ever apologized to you for what they did (speaking of GG, MM, TM)?

  If at the end of GG's reign of terror had there been any kind of movement by most of these former leaders, and those wishing to continue the "vision" of GG, toward honest reconciliation with former members, I might be encouraged to sit down with them and muse about some of the good things I learned, but such an attitude now would not be helpful to them.

  Another example:  A Valley bro. after the collapse of that group gave me a call and wanted to "get things right with me" re. how he treated me when I left.  My response was, "great", and I sent him an email detailing the issues I wanted to talk about.  He never responded to my email, blocked my address from his computer, and changed his phone number!  I suppose I could have just said, "forget the whole thing", not raise any issues and we could have been bosom buddies.  However, that wouldn't do either of us any good, and especially him!

  My point:  I'm not saying your question is an attempt to white wash the group, or that you are attempting to support evil.  What I am saying is that it is not the right question to ask right now, as there are too many still out there who think---- "GG bad, but Assembly system the best".  Looking for "the good" is to be found in a completely different place for them, and that is in honest repentance.

 We owe this effort of pressing the need for honest admission and repentance from these above to all those so deeply injured by this group, and as I've said before, most of all to those leaders who are still living in denial and unrepentant----- far away from God.

                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

   

[outdeep]

Mark,

I was thinking about your response yesterday and I think I understand better where you are coming from.

What I am hearing from you is a concern about those who rejected George and want to hold onto "all the good things in the Assembly" and keep that baggage with them.  When I first left and talked with folks who left in the great Irons-age exodus of 1990, there were many who were looking for a church that "was not like the Assembly but it needed to be like the Assembly".  I remember couples diligently attending the Wednesday night Bible study in their new churches and having their kinds on the mat!  (All the old people who attended thought this was quaint).  I remember folks talking about "the great liberty they had when leaving the Assembly" and then being very critical of the denominational church as "not being very serious about their Christian walk like we were in the Assembly".

For those, there indeed has to be a rejection of the entire Assembly system and a learning how to be a Christian in a church all over again.  Asking, "what was good in the Assembly that we can 'import' into our new church context" where it doesn't really fit often led to problems and judgmental attitudes.


On the other hand, here is how I took Tom's question. Let's take your Mormon example.  "What did I learn from the Mormon church that Tom can use in his church plant?"  While I reject their doctrine and practices, I would suggest to Tom this:  The Mormon's utilize radio in a great way.  Every time I hear a commercial on radio, they hit a family-oriented issues that is very meaningful and touching.  I'm always disappointed when I hear at the end that it is from the church of the Latter-day saints.  So, Tom, in your church plant in South Fullerton, you might consider the effective use of local radio to appeal to issues in folks life and give opportunity for follow up and invite them to a ministry in your church.

So Mark.  I do indeed affirm what you are saying and appreciate your heart in this matter.  I think we may just be running at the question from two different angles.

-Dave

[Joe Sperling]

Tom----

You said below to Mark:

The fact is, Mark, that I was attempting to share with you some of the good things I learned during my experience in the assembly.  Among them were: 1. The proper ground of Christian fellowship and the sinfulness of sectarianism. 2. The absolute necessity of financial openness and accountability.  3. The difference between "breaking of bread" and the Lord's supper.
Those are, and I think you will agree, good things to know.  Like it or not, I learned them during my assembly experience.

The three things you mention are all "negative examples". You learned them from observing the opposite of what should have been correct teachings. Example: The Assembly was not financially accountable, so you "learned" the necessity of financial openness and accountability. You "learned" the sinfulness of sectarianism by being in a highly sectarian place, etc.  You are not listing positive things you learned.   It's a bit like drinking from a poisonous spring, surviving, and then saying "I learned not to drink from poisonous springs because of that experience--It is a good thing to know".  The "experience" may help you not to drink from a poisonous spring again, but was it "good" that you drank in the first place? The only "good" thing you learned was to not drink from poisoned springs again.

James 3:11 says:
Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.

James is referring to the "tongue" in the above passage, but the teaching still applies to our subject.  I have to ask:  Was the Assembly a "fresh spring"? I don't believe it was. It had the "appearance" of a fresh spring, but in reality it was providing murky, poisonous water.  Can a murky spring produce anything fresh and good? As it says above "Can a salt pond yield fresh water?" Could an unclean spring of legality and abuse really produce things you can look back on and call "good"?  "A little leaven leavens the whole lump" said Jesus. The Assembly, by allowing in the leaven of legality, had become a leavened lump---how could it produce unleavened bread?

Can we then take these "negative" things we learned to avoid and call them "good" things that we learned?  Can we drink salty water from a spring and then call it fresh? Is it really a "good" thing you learned, or something you learned from making a bad choice?

"All things work together for good, to them who love God, to them who are called according to His purpose".  Due to our bad choices, and stupidity, we wound up in a legalistic place---God will use this "for" good---but we really can't call the experiences "good"--because perhaps, if we had had more wisdom, we should not have had to experience them at all. Or, perhaps the title of the thread could be "The Assembly Experience: What good things have you learned to avoid as a result?"

As Mark mentioned below concerning his own opinions---these are just my opinions too. I'm glad we are able to discuss this, and take different approaches to it. In a sense I see your point Tom---"good" can come from an evil experience---it's something one "learns"--- however I cannot call it: "a good thing I learned in the Assembly". Almost getting hit by a car in the street when I was a kid might have helped me be more watchful the next time, or not go in the street at all--in that sense the experience of the "near miss" might have  been "good" for me. But maybe, if I'd listened to Mom, I wouldn't have been wandering in the street in the first place.

[Margaret]

Here is another perspective: http://www.upper-register.com/blog/?p=32. Lee wasn't aware of the discussion here when he posted this on his blog last week. 

[Joe Sperling]

Margaret--

Thanks for the post. It's good to see the perspective of an actual Assembly child
in this discussion. I admit to being far too harsh and unyielding in my opinions regarding
this. Lee lived his life through the experience in the Assembly and came away with "good"
things despite the heresy---and despite how he was treated by the brothers when
he was disfellowshipped. One "good" thing that I have neglected to see, though right in front
of my eyes, and that I learned there, is that there are true, good and sincere people in every
place. Some of the people who came through that place, due to the trying and testing, and
grief, came out with more humility than when they entered--and that truly is a very
good thing. The humility and understanding may have taken time to develop afterwards, but came about as
a result of those bad and trying experiences, and seeing that the Lord was there with them through all of them.

The Lord comforts us so that we may become a comfort to others. I had forgotten to really see this in the
perspective of "gold tried in the fire". The Lord allowed many of us to go through the things we did to
get rid of the "dross", and refine us. Even if this was learned through negative consequences, it was
a lesson that was "good" to learn. If we came out of our experience there more entreatable, with more
compassion for others, and with a greater desire to know God's grace, it truly was good for us.

The only danger, as Mark has mentioned also, is somehow lessening the evil that was found there, by listing
the "good things" one may have learned there. "See---the place wasn't so bad after all" is the wrong thing to have learned through one's experiences there. Realizing the Lord "allowed" a very bad experience and situation to be used to bring about the  better good in many people is the right lesson to have been learned, in my opinion. But I do stand corrected for taking such a hard line in this discussion. There were some good things learned by our experiences.

[Oscar]

Joe and Mark,

MEIN GOTT!!!  I must confess that I am quite taken aback by the vehemence you both have shown in discussing this issue.  Just how many times do I have to deny that I am trying to justify what happened to us in the assembly?

I suspect that I was probably the target of more of GG's ill treatment than both of you put together...with plenty left over.  For years of the leading brother's meetings in Fullerton I endured the wrath, criticism, and ridicule of GG.  As an extra blessing his gang of yes-men would then pile on with their own contributions.

If I admit that God blessed me in any way during those years I have turned traitor and am now a supporter of George Geftakys' delusions?    :rofl:

I do not claim to understand all of God's ways.  But y'know, his word does shed light on many things.  In Psalm 66:10-15 it says:

V10 For you have tried us, O God; You have refined us as silver is refined.

V11 You brought us into the net; You laid an oppressive burden on our loins

V12 You made men to ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water, Yet you brought us out into a place of abundance

V13 I shall come into your house with burnt offerings; I shall pay you my vows,

V14 Which my lips uttered and my mouth spoke when I was in distress.

V15 I shall offer to you burnt offerings of fat beasts, with the smoke of rams; I shall make an offering of bulls
      with male goats.
      Selah

What the Psalmist has endured and suffered, (which I am very sure he did not enjoy), has led him into worship of his God.  And not only that...but it becomes his testimony to others.  Verses 16-17 says:

V16 Come and hear, all who fear God, and I will tell of what he has done for my soul.

V17 I cried to him with my mouth, and he was extolled with my tongue.

V18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear;

V19 But certainly God has heard; he has given heed to the voice of my prayer.

V20 Blessed be God, who has not turned away my prayer, nor his loving kindness from me.

A few feet from where I am typing a picture is hanging on the wall of my study.  It is a photo of a wall next to the Big Thompson River as it runs past the Glacier Lodge in Estes Park, Colorado.  I attended about 14 Worker's Seminars, and GG would frequently use that opportunity to blast me or humiliate me in one way or another.  I would sit on that wall, depressed, and pour out my heart before the Lord.  I stopped there and took that photo a few years back as I was returning from the east coast.  It is there to remind me of what I am about to tell you.

You know what?  God has brought everythiing I prayed for to pass!  I never dreamed it would take so many years, but I ain't complainin'.  God is truly wonderful, and his work in our lives is a testimony to that fact.  I am grateful for what I learned and how I grew during those hard times.  I do, however, admit that I would have preferred to attend a campus of the School of Hard Knocks that charged less tuition.   

Mark, I am not excusing either the Assembly system nor the Church in Laodicea.  I am merely praising God for "what he has done for my soul".

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

Tom----

Thanks for your thoughts. I had entered a huge post, but realized I was being entirely too
judgmental about this whole thread. My apologies. You're right---praise God for everything He has done
for all of us. He did lead us through some trying times, but He did bring us into a "place of
abundance". I thank the Lord for what he has done for you! I can only imagine what your
experiences have been, and what you went through back then. I have no way of knowing
that, and have no right to make any judgments regarding those times. If you read my post
before I deleted it, forgive me for being too critical of your response. Thanks for mentioning that picture you have of Colorado---only you and the Lord can know it's real significance, and the emotions, memories, and experiences it conjures up in your mind and heart. The Lord truly is a healer!

The Lord is so very good! I was watching the "Gospel of John"(video), and there has always been something about chapter 21 that draws me to it. I imagine myself being in the boat with Peter and the others, and throwing the net to the other side of the boat and seeing all of the fish. I hear the Apostle John say "It's the Lord!" and see Peter dive into the water and start swimming towards the shoreline. I see Jesus beckoning, with a small fire, with fish and bread prepared there, and saying "Children, come and dine". And that's what it is really all about--Our fellowship with the gracious and kind Lord Jesus Christ. Everything else disappears, and it's only the Lord and the small fire, and His still small voice. How I wish I could be on that beach right now! The Lord is filled with such great lovingkindness and goodness towards us!

Tom--I know you weren't trying to "justify" what happened in the Assembly. Psalm 66:10-20 was what you were trying to say all along. It's a good reminder to not forget the past---we should learn from it---but we also need to leave it where it belongs---in the past. Thank God this verse is as true now as it ever was--"All things work together for good to those who love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28). After all of these years I can truly say that that verse is true without a doubt.

* addition*: By the way, Mark posted last night on the other new thread "What good things you DID" and in one paragraph explained what I was trying to say to you in my original monumental post (same basic thoughts), before I turned it into a novel! I should have him edit my posts before I submit them in the future! 

[Christine]

A few come to mind:

1.   I have taught Sunday School at times and I am on the list of those who give devotions at my work.  While I had to unlearn lots of ideas about studying the Bible and preaching I picked up in the Assembly years, the basic ability to get up in front of people and share some encouraging thoughts from the Bible I learned from the Assembly.  Many who may have the gift of teaching, exhortation or encouragement may never feel they are able to do such a thing since they are not trained in seminary.  The Assembly helped me see though that thinking and be able to talk to a large group of people if necessary.

2.   The Assembly taught me to value books and teachers outside the mainstream Christian publishing.  In the Assembly, I was introduced to Francis Schaeffer, C. H. Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee, A. W. Tozer and many others who are not popular at Wal-Mart or even the local Christian bookstore.  Admittedly, I probably don’t have much of an appetite for such mystics as Nee anymore.  But the realization that there is more out there than “Left Behind”, “The Prayer of Jabez”, “Purpose-Driven” and “Your Best Life Now” is not something every Christian has.

3.   Many Christians in churches operate on the idea that they are involved in a ministry that is basically run by the church staff.  If I have nursery duty, I show up for my time but let the Children’s Ministry Director will worry about it if we run out of diapers.  The idea of taking personal ownership of a ministry is something I learned in the Assembly.

4.   I know that disciplines of the Christian life include reading and studying the Bible, prayer, worship and fellowship with other believers.  I learned this in the Assembly.  Not all Christians appreciate this.

5.   Though the Assembly had many ineffective ideas in this regard, thinking strategically as to how to reach the community about you – whether in overt evangelism or in serving others – is something I learned in the Assembly.

6.   I came to appreciate hymns as well as their history in the Assembly.  I appreciate some of the contemporary stuff as well but I feel bad that many in the church never get decent exposure to some of the great ideas captured in the songs from the past.

One may object to this, “But, Dave.  Many people learned all these things who ever heard of the Assembly.”  That is absolutely true.  I renounce the Assembly snobbery that felt they had something no one else had.  But credit is given where credit is due.  God used the Assembly to teach me these things.

I know this was posted last month but this is good. I can say that I do think that I learned to spend time reading God's word from my Assembly days.


There are quite a few things I learned that I can say were good. During my years in the assembly which started out good- I mean at first it seemed that everyone was kind and oh was certainly willing to invite me to dinner.. I felt very welcomed-  From this I can say I learned to be hospitable.

A few times we would help with moving or maybe babysit during a workers meeting or other meetings where children were not attending.--I think from that I learned to help others maybe even when I didnt want to. Part of me sometimes felt like it was a requirement, the other part was willing to lend a hand.



after awhile in the assembly it almost seemed that you had to be somebody- the invitations to dinner became fewer and fewer. Maybe because i wasnt a worker or whatever - But I think I learned to treat others on the same level- maybe they werent "of stature" but if they needed something - the Lord doesnt turn a deaf ear so I shouldnt either.

I have not always been outgoing-very much keep to myself but I can say that going on outreach, handing out invitations over the years helped me to come out of that shell

Probably one of the hardest things was when I very close friend in the assembly passed away- I took it pretty hard since i had talked to them the day before. I think I learned a new depth of compassion especially for that family who had young children. This was probably the closest friend I had lost at that time.--this was one of those times where  even tho I was in the assembly I kinda felt alone- I can look back on this experience and I think I learned compassion for others. I think this experience would eventually help later on. This past year I lost a close family member to cancer and to watch them gradually lose that battle-very heartbreaking. But when they finally passed away this year- it became more about how i can comfort others.

I will stop now. as other things come to me I will contribute. While i can think back on the negative I also know there were some good things I learned.

[Joe Sperling]

You caught my e-mail before I deleted it Christine. You're right---I misunderstood your message
to me and thought you were confirming you were Marty. I really don't know who you are--I have
just seen so many people using multiple names that it gets confusing sometimes. There is one person
who has used at least 8 different names to post, and believe me, in your personal messages to me you sounded a lot like that person!  But who am I to judge? I owe you an apology. I have to admit, just can't shake it, that it
seems a bit suspicious that you would go all the way back to the start of the thread, and re-post the same quote and comment that literally started the whole "argument". But who knows? Maybe it was all pure coincidence.

It's stupid though to pursue this not knowing who you are. Sorry about that--won't happen again.

[Christine]

For the record plus I would be surprised if Brian didnt do it for me. I have moved my part of the post between Joe and I to a thread under "people finder" . My intentions were out of respect for the person who started this topic.

Afterall the topic IS called "The assembly Experience: what were the good things you learned."

Not Lets find out who Christine really is.

So back to our regularly scheduled topic