The Assembly experience: Were there any good things you DID?

[Mark C.]

Tracy,

  I am blessed with the gift of interpretation ( ) and will explain to you what Joe and Tom are saying.

In the past there have been clandestine (they hide their names behind pseudonyms. One in particular, who has assumed different names that Joe mentions in his clone post  ) Assembly defenders who refuse to accept any negative evidence re. Assembly conduct.

This poster, and others like them, are like holocaust deniers.  They have an agenda that drives them to attempt to take clear cut evil that has a victim and turn the tables where the victim is actually to blame.  Your postings re. Judy G. and the child abuse issue seem to follow this same kind of attempt to explain away the culpability of the offenders and place doubt on the claims of those violated.

They also use many of the same verses that you have used to justify their agenda; pulling them out of the context as a means to lead folks down the logical maze to their conclusion----ie, "there was no abuse and your experiences are all imagined---- just forget it and live for Christ."

When you post thoughts like you have it is like rubbing salt in the wounds of these victims--- why?  because you are basically saying that the hurt person most likely is making more of it than it was, and "if it did happen they probably caused it by their own actions."  This would be similar to Betty G.'s advice to Judy.

Another aspect of this kind of poster is that though there is a great deal of material available at www.geftakysassembly.com that documents a pervasive history of abusive leadership and deep seated cultic activity in these churches they, like the holocaust denier, will never consider these facts. 

If you are just an innocent poster who has no agenda, who happens to be visiting this site, I hope my explanation is helpful.  If you are not, you will be easily outed and your agenda will fail.

                                                               God Bless, Mark C. 

 

[trac4yt]

Assuming your "churches" were churches that lasted
approximately 30 years at 4 meetings per week...

1) People chose to go to 6,240 meetings.  Followed Christ, 10,950 days.
2) People believing the essentials = 80-100%
3) People with variable views on the non-essentials = 80-100%
4) People praying for other people, weekly.  God hears, answers, remembers.
5) People learned a lot.
6) People reached out a lot.

It would seem a couple of things would be picked up along the way.

It would seem a couple of things would be picked up along the way.

m.c.

Wow...oooookkkk
 

[Mark C.]

m.c.

Wow...oooookkkk
 

Tracy,

  Would you mind answering some questions for me?  First, is Tracy you real name, or if it is not would it bother you to share it?

 Can you tell me something of your background (just general info. re. your church affiliation, and what your Christian experiences have been)?

 How did you find your way to this particular BB and why do you find it interesting?

Have you had any previous dealings with cults or abusive churches?  If so, how were you involved?

Has the church you presently attend have/had problems like you hear discussed on this BB?

                                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

 Dear Friends,

  It doesn't appear that Tracy will answer the questions I posed.  That's too bad because I think it would be interesting to find out where he/she was coming from. 

   These kind of challenges that Tracy raised are good, because it makes us think, but I like to know if the challenger is more than just acting as an advocate for the Devil, or a real live representative of the same  .

  I remember being on another BB in years past that addressed mostly cults.  They got into the real heavies--- you know the clear cut cults like the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, etc.  Cult leaders sometimes would get on these BB's; and boy were they slick!

 I had an online discussion, so to speak, with the heir apparent to The Branch Davidians (this was after Waco and the demise of the former leader David Koresch).  However, he never would address my questions in his answers and instead would start in on giving me a message from scripture.  Nothing in what he said sounded dangerous---- in fact he sounded very biblical and mild---- however, he would not only never concede my point, he never would actually address it.  He would kind of slide off into his agenda.

  There was another guy, from I think The Potters House group (there's all kinds of groups with this name, so I'm not saying all of them are like this guy I talked with).  This guy would never consider any negative evaluation of what he taught or practiced.  If you challenged him you were attacking "God's Servant" (where have we heard that before).  He was particularly gifted at invoking passages that urged me to emphasize the good, while also warning what happens to those that "dwell on the negative."  In other words, he could subtly turn the tables and make the issue your "negative spirit" vs.  problems with what he taught and practiced.

  These kind of people above, if you wouldn't give into the guilt trip that they would try and place on you,  would just stomp off in anger and leave the BB with a loud denunciation, or some just would leave, figuring their magic wasn't working.  When all is said and done, they are not interested in honest give and take discussion because their interest is in trying to blur clear lines of distinction between good and evil re. their particular group.  Their groups are "all about the bible, prayer, outreach, living holy--- and isn't that good?!"  "Why do you bother to ask about the character of our leaders, how we treat the members, or those not in the group, etc." 

  Tracy's "assumptions" re. our Assm. experiences demonstrate this tactic:

 1.) 30 years of meetings, 4 times a week= 6,240.
 2.) Followed Christ 2,950 days.
 3.) People believing the essentials 80%-100% of the time.
 4.) People praying for other people.
 5.) People learned a lot.
 6.) People reached out a lot.

  It would seem a couple of things would be picked up along the way.

  All good stuff!  I mean, except for possibly 20%, but since we were all following Christ that 20% of non-essentials probably was really closer to 1 %---- and at that, it's just a non-essential, and not a big deal anyway!

  If what Tracy assumes above is correct then every bible based cult or abusive church that ever existed, or will exist, brings great pleasure to God.  Why?  because each one of them can meet the above requirement as listed, and in spades!

  What is essential in a God pleasing church?  Not the public religious performance, or being able to recite 80%-100% of correct dogma!  What is essential, and what was largely lacking in the group, was an expression of the love of God.  Allowing wife beaters and child abusers to flourish unpunished in your group is essentially evil!  Using your place of leadership in the church to meet your own sinful needs for power, wealth, sex, etc. is also 100% evil!

  Obviously, the bible, prayer, outreach, etc. is something that can be used for good--- but to make it actually "good" the heart has to be right with God.  Without this all of Tracy's list, at best, is nothing more than a clanging bell, and at worst can be used as a whip to intimidate and manipulate God's little ones.

    Did we learn a few good things from that past experience?  Yep---- not everyone that comes quoting the bible, urging us to "seek the high calling of God in Christ Jesus," has God's or our best interests in mind.  I also know now that the practice of believers is just as essential as is their statement of faith, and that those that minimize this do so for a reason. 

                                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.         

[trac4yt]

from mc:

Allowing wife beaters and child abusers to flourish unpunished in your group is essentially evil!

Since wife beaters were allowed to "flourish unpunished"..

Did D., the wife beater, teach your church to beat their wives?
Did leaders tell D. to keep beating his wife?
Did J. insist with D. to not beat her early on?
How many wife beaters did your church have?
If D. beat his wife, did it make your church evil for 30 years?

from mc:

Obviously, the bible, prayer, outreach, etc. is something that can be used for good--- but to make it actually "good" the heart has to be right with God.

How did hundreds or thousands make, "the heart..right with God" when they did all of these things?  When you talked to someone about Christ, did the Word not have power for 30 years?

Did God block their prayers and service for 30 years?
If someone prayed for you in the 30 years, was that blocked by God?

Leverage all your learning for your Master's glory.
Your mentors borrowed from their mentors who borrowed from their mentors.

Leverage good mentoring and take it everywhere.

 

P.S.  Sure sounds like Lee I. took heed, a link provided by a Margaret.  Sounds like an ace!

..Go, and do thou likewise. (Lu 10:37)

I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. (Joh 4:38)

P.P.S.

from mc:

"2.) Followed Christ 2,950 days."

Was this your calc?

[trac4yt]

..and now a break for the weather..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu9MGgjooHw

 

Always get up again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXXm696UbKY&mode=related&search=

[Mark C.]

 Tracy,

  I don't see why I have to answer your questions if you won't answer mine------ What are you trying to hide?

But, for the benefit of others I will attempt again to point out the flaws in you basic presuppositions:

1.)Yes "D. the wife beater" did teach the church to beat their wives.  How?

 By example, which is the very best means of instruction available.

   2.) Yes, Leaders did tell D. to keep beating his wife?  How so?
 
 An example might be helpful here.  Suppose a police man from Birmingham Alabama in the 1950's was standing on a corner while a black woman was being beaten by white racists.  This policeman never told the whites' to beat the woman, yet he stands passively by ignoring the situation.  After the abusers leave the policeman comes over to the black woman and tells her, "you know it was really your fault because you tried to go into the lunch counter and eat with the white folks."  Federal investigators get involved and the policeman denies the incident is really happening and blames the black woman for inciting the attack.  This is precisely the nature of the Assembly's handling of the situation and it is patently evil.

   3.) "Did J. insist that D. not beat her early on?"   This question is absurd!  What possible difference could this have made?!  D. also beat his children (Rachel's story at the Reflections site) and the Assembly child training instruction taught the use of extreme corporal punishment.  If a child doesn't insist that an abuser stop is it then okay for the abuse to continue?  Not only is this question foolish it demonstrates a moral insensitivity that is contra the heart of God!

  4.) As to "how many wife beaters did our group have?":  Much of the private activity within a cult is hidden, and not many polls are taken, so an exact number would be impossible to provide.  I have already answered this question (which you have refused to respond to) by sharing a story from my own past in the group.  Please try to get the point this time that it was the system of spiritual and emotional abuse established by the leaders that caused this "evil to flouish."  I left before the Assembly started "the wife training meetings", where husbands were instructed to subdue and control their wives.  Possibly some others could offer some insight as to what was "taught" in these gatherings.

    To understand how this works please read:  "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse", by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderan, and "Churches That Abuse" by Dr. Ronald Enroth.

     5.)What made our church evil for 30 years?  Wow! it would be impossible to answer this in one post, as there are two websites filled with reams of documentated evidence available on the topic.  You ask the question but you aren't really interested in an answer.

     I'll try another metaphor in an attempt to illustrate how a group that practices prayer, bible reading, outreach, etc.(good) can still be pronouned bad (evil) by God.  This was done by Jesus in the giving of the parable of "The Good Samaritan."  I think we're all familiar with the Gospel story where a wounded man is ignored by two religious types.  These religious types were in the 80-100 % category of being essentially correct that you mentioned in your list.  Yet, Jesus credits the heretical Samaritan with a greater understanding of God's love than these! The Pharisees had the bible, prayer, outreach, but their whole religious system was evil and supported an ethical expression that is thoroughly rejected by Christ--(see MT. 23 the entire chapter).

   6.) Did God hear our prayers in the group?  He always listens if we are indeed crying out to him (vs. praying with ourselves as in the Pharisee and publican parable).  The problem is, as in Laodicea, are we listening to his answers?!  He answered me by showing me the basic evil in the group and for me to get out post-haste!

   Absolutely we must "leverage" out learning opportunities---- however, we must learn the right lessons from that past or there is the danger we will recreate the same kind of evil in the new places where we go.

  Lee does not post here.  His comments were not an evaluation of the true character of the group or that everyone in the group was effected as he was.  He was writing re. a very narrow range of experience he had as a child in the group where he enjoyed a status as a child of the man who was 2nd in command (much different than a regular member).  At the end Lee was terribly mistreated, but in his piece he does not mention this.  Had he, it would have offered much more perspective.  If he is an "Ace" it was because he escaped an evil system and went on to grow in Christ.

  PPS---- Yes, my new calc.'s are based on the subtraction necessary when a mind may have wandered for a second or two, a mother had to take a child to the bathroom to spank him/her, etc.  

                                                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

[trac4yt]

from mc:

Absolutely we must "leverage" out learning opportunities---- however, we must learn the right lessons from that past or there is the danger we will recreate the same kind of evil in the new places where we go.

And mine:

Leverage all your learning for your Master's glory.
Your mentors borrowed from their mentors who borrowed from their mentors.

Leverage good mentoring and take it everywhere.

Thank you very much.

"Yes, my new calc.'s are based on the subtraction necessary.."

N/A
Go with the original calc.

Followed Christ, 10,950 days.

Don't make God so small. 

[Mark C.]

Tracy,

   Don't twist what I say, refuse to deal with my arguments, and make God into an endorser of evil!

PS--- please answer my original questions as to your name, where you are from, etc.

 PPS--- you are not welcome!                                     

                                                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.

[trac4yt]

from mc

"..make God into an endorser of evil.."

..Your deceptive, broad-brush smear, not mine.

May all from your churches go everywhere for the Master.

later...take care, m.c.

 

[Mark C.]

from mc
..Your deceptive, broad-brush smear, not mine.

May all from your churches go everywhere for the Master.

later...take care, m.c.

 

  No, not "a deceptive, broad-brush smear", the proper indictment of someone who suggests "The Master" would endorse your views.  You are the "deceptive" one because you are hiding your agenda, and avoiding dealing with the arguments I am making.

  You have little knowledge of what actually went on in this group (all the while refusing to educate yourself) and yet try to defend the indefensible actions of the leaders!  Why would you do such a thing?

  Yes, I smell a rat, not a true servant of The Master!

                                                                           Mark C.

                                                       

   

[trac4yt]

m.c.

If you were a leader, dump the bad stuff and the baggage, and carry the good to your church and others.

Deal with it and, "go forward".  Be enlarged.

You'll be a blessing.

You don't have much time.

Run it!

 

[Mark C.]

m.c.

If you were a leader, dump the bad stuff and the baggage, and carry the good to your church and others.

Deal with it and, "go forward".  Be enlarged.

You'll be a blessing.

You don't have much time.

Run it!

 

 

 Tracy,

    Your exhortation assumes that I am not any of the above now (going forward, enlarged).  However, tell me why I should listen to any advice you would give?  Who are you and what agenda do you represent(name, church affiliation, position in that group)?  Should I "run" with the kind of thinking that you have advised in your posts re. a situation you know little of? You said, "I don't have much time?"  Why? Are you threatening me?

  Same goes for you pal---  Be honest in your dealings (don't hide who you are and your real agenda), dump the OJ defense logic garbage, and you will be a blessing to your church and others.

  I have no idea how much time you have.

 Run It!

                                                                    Mark C.

 

[trac4yt]

m.c.

"..the time [is] short.." (1Co 7:29)
"..Redeeming the time.." (Eph 5:16)

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb 12:1)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VaQRzoJVPTA

May the Lord use you!

gotta go...over and out...enjoyed the dialogue.

[Marcia M]

About a year ago a Canadian television network aired a program about a Hamilton ON cult:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061027/wfive_pied_piper_061027/20061117?hub=WFive
It is being re-aired today.  Mary Alice Chrnalogar was involved in an attempt to de-program one devotee.

More info can be found on rickross.com:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/dominioncc.html
The Dominion Chrisitan Center (DCC) is a hyper Pentecostal version of the assembly.
All very interesting but...

Anyway:
mc  I do believe that trac4y(ou)t(ube), whoever he/she is, has a point.

Matt 5:20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matt 23:23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

Looks like the Pharisees did do some things right eh??


I used to watch "House" and after about 10 weeks I quit. I did not enjoy the program any more.  Every episode was the same story with different patients.  House himself didn't seem to change and was stuck with the same ole issues week after week.
I check this BB daily, but it does appear that we have a case of House-itis here.

Regards,
Marcia M