The Assembly experience: Were there any good things you DID?

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia!

  Good to hear from you again!  We need you here to help us figure out what the secret names of posters mean  .  I saw the Trac and a Y and figured that the hidden name within the secret code must have been Tracy.  My wife is good with puzzles I should have asked her for help.

  I was off work all last week, and around the house, spending too much time on the computer which involved me in all the tit-for-tat with the You Tube tracker.  The verses you shared perfectly make the point that I was trying to make (another reason you should still be on the BB  ).

  I'm afraid I let my frustration with him/her show.  You can't argue with the need to learn from the past and use the lessons as a means of blessing others, but when it's put in the context of using abusers as "mentors", and denying all the evil that went on?!

  As to the boring nature of the BB:  It is what people make of it, but good entertainment it probably will never be.  Have you read the "troubled" thread?  I thought that demonstrated the possibilities for the BB in that someone wrote in with a problem and Margaret hit the nail on the head with a good answer that really helped!  It helped me too!  I'll bet you others found some consolation in that short clear wisdom as well. And hey, we got spell check now!    We also have something TV doesn't have and that is Joe Sperling  :rofl:!

                               Good to hear from you and God Bless,   Mark C.

[Marcia M]

.....
  As to the boring nature of the BB:  It is what people make of it, but good entertainment it probably will never be.  Have you read the "troubled" thread?  I thought that demonstrated the possibilities for the BB in that someone wrote in with a problem and Margaret hit the nail on the head with a good answer that really helped!  It helped me too!  I'll bet you others found some consolation in that short clear wisdom as well. And hey, we got spell check now!    We also have something TV doesn't have and that is Joe Sperling  :rofl:!

                               Good to hear from you and God Bless,   Mark C.

Which is the point of the thread eh??

Despite the "evil" nature of the Geftakys system; God was still involved in our lives and we can talk of useful experiences from our past that might be useful today. (I do not read everything that's posted, and someone may have already made that point.)

And yes, trac4yt was right on.  It has been 4 1/2 years and it is good to connect with a church for worship and teaching.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia,

  If what you said in your last post was what Trac4yt was saying then I would say that you have not been following this thread.  He was saying that what went on in the group was "80%-100% following Christ", and he was making excuses for the leaders covering up child abuse and wife beating, etc.

  Of course there are things we learned for good in our own individual lives with God in the group, just as we can learn from a past of being tortured in a communist prison----- I wasn't arguing with him about this.  It was his defense of the bad things the leaders did that raised my hackles.

  If we leave our Assembly experience, and are in denial as to what was really going on there, we will take to our new church experiences the same kind of failed teaching and practices. The only reason anyone has to raise the issue of "how evil the Assembly was" is because there are those that still insist on saying it was just a "wonderful church of dear Christians who got a little off track."

  Some may ask, "why is it so important to understand what was wrong with the group, after all, the group is basically history."  As Dr. Ronald Enroth has documented, within the Christian community there has always been a tendency for some to go these same directions.  Jesus warned the Disciples about abusing brethren, Paul warned the church, and deep within the human heart are the roots of this kind of behavior.

  If we ignore the negative lessons and just try to focus on the positive we really will not have learned a whole lot from out past and we also will not be able to be a blessing where we go from here.

                                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.   

[Marcia M]

Hi again Mark C,

While it is true that we have learned from our assembly experience re. legalism and Phariseeism, and that we and our leaders furthered the Geftakys agenda, we also learned to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.  However, using the Lord Jesus as our example, He Himself was not focussed on dealing with the Pharisees, though He did respond to them appropriately when they questioned Him.  In fact they were still around when He left this earth.  His focus was on preaching the good news of the kingdom.

Our assembly experience gives us empathy for those in similar predicaments and we are able to comfort them with what God comforted us with, but not everyone we encounter will need "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" type counselling.  And we cannot be effective counsellors if we are mono-maniacs and see everything through the lens of our assembly experience.  Hence the encouragement by trac4yt to get on with it.

On another note, has anyone read "The Shack" yet?  I've read rave reviews about it and plan to read it soon.

Marcia M

[Mark C.]

Thanks Marcia,

  You make very good points and they are well made.  However, that was not what Trac4y. was saying.  Had this anon. poster said what you said I would have said "amen" and moved on.  He/She went into an amazing bit of OJ defense where he/she attempted to fabricate a false Assembly scenario that never existed.  Though this person knew nothing about the group (and refused to access the available info.) he/she offered opinions that attempted to make Assem. leaders "followers of Christ". 

  In reading the Gospels you will find that Jesus spent a great deal of time dealing with the issue of the bad religion of the Pharisee/Sadducee (entire chap. of MT 23). Paul also spends a great deal of time with it. The whole book of Galatians is concerned with a comparison between grace and bad religion like the Assembly.  Legalism is a small part of the whole picture of the malady that these people suffered from.  In it's essence, the problem is an incorrect view of who God really is and this view becomes systematized in a cruel form of oppression that does lots of spiritual and psychological damage.

  Ex-smokers/drinkers are said to be the hardest on those still having these same practices, and no doubt those that suffered the most from these addictions will see these issues as being huge and become preachy as a result.  I possibly fall into that same category, and as such your admonition to me should be considered (and I will ).  However, if (from my ex-smoker/drinker metaphor) someone came to the now free from addiction person and started to deny the dangers of smoking and alcoholism to them and encouraged spreading this false notion the only right and loving thing to do would be to oppose it.

 Trac.'s posts fits the above scenario of deceitful promotion of evil and the encouragement in the spread of toxic religion.  I do feel a responsibility before God to resist any such notions, and to remain passive in the face of it is to take on the same kind of tolerance of evil that I practiced in the group. Though I do not like to challenge (it ties me up in knots for days) people like this I cannot in good conscience remain silent.

                             Thanks again for your insights.  God Bless,  Mark C.   

 

[Explorer]

In regards to “Houseitis”, I think it is because there is a poster who thinks it is so necessary to make sure that we all know that the assembly was evil, that poster thinks that anything that might remotely insinuate that there was something good that came out of the system needs to be quickly and seriously dealt with, because it is against his opinion. Well, be wise, for we know where we learned that attitude as well, even if it is exercised in a good intention.

We know that the assembly was an evil system. But we don’t need someone constantly monitoring, cutting in and always feeling like they have to add their 2 cents. That is, unless you control the board. As you can see, this is not a lone opinion.

Anyone else?

[Joe Sperling]

I really have to agree with the comments in the last posts. Just last week I visited the Simon Wiesenthal Center
and said the same thing.

 "Look", I said, "we all know that Nazism was a bad thing, and the Holocaust
was a horrible occurrence, but do you have to keep reminding us all the time about it? Why can't you just take the good things you learned from the experience, however bad, and move on with your lives? I mean, it's been 60 years for Pete's sake! This dude Simon Wiesenthal thinks he has to keep warning us and warning us about the evil. He even erects a center so he can continue to remind us about it! Why does Simon always feel he has to remind us how evil Nazism was? We all know it was evil, but I also know the Nazis caused the trains to run on time. That was a good thing. Why can't we just remember that? Maybe we can make the trains run on time too. You people here at this center have a bad case of what I call "Houseitis". Why can't you just get over it?" I also mentioned that much of the "abuse" in that Nazi system was most likely greatly exaggerated, and the people brought much of the abuse upon themselves.

But unfortunately, they all turned a deaf ear. They didn't want to listen to some good advice from a spiritually knowledgeable and humble person.

They didn't listen to me. They said the center was erected to remind us not to repeat the past. Yeah--sure--like this BB here was put into place to help us not repeat the past!! Yeah sure, right! They said sure, some good HAD to have come out of all of the past evil, because God always does that, but it didn't mean we should forget, or stop talking about how it all happened, and try to prevent it from ever happening again. If we forget, we might fall into complacency, begin to think what happened really wasn't all that bad, and possibly let it all happen again. What hogwash! I hate people that feel they always have to warn us about the bad stuff that happened. Why can't they just talk about good, nice and fluffy stuff--and center on the "good things" we all learned, and stop bringing up abuse and wife-beating and other negative things like that? Besides, maybe none of that ever happened anyway. Maybe it was just all a big exaggeration.  I wish all the Simon Wiesenthal whiners of the world, including the people on this BB who feel they have to talk about the bad that happened, would just go crawl into a cave somewhere and die.

[Explorer]

Joe,

Do you really think that is what people are saying?

[Margaret]

Well...maybe we should take a break from this controversy. I would sincerely like to hear some discussion of my original question--In spite of the evil system, were there any things you did in the Assembly that that were good and contributed to the kingdom of God? This question arises out of a consideration of the last Teen Conference material that was posted briefly on ga.com. Are there any teen counselors out here who can remember an important conversation with a teen, or a lesson that was Biblical and not just Assembly mind control, or a relationship built with a teen that helped them later, or a prayer that was answered about one of the teens.....etc., etc.? It's related to the question, what aspects of  your Assembly experience assure you that God was still working in your life? Or do we have to consider the years we spent there as exclusively a negative education?

As you might expect, I am personally wrestling with this question. So far I haven't found anything I did that wasn't tainted in some way, and yet in some cases God seemed to bring some good out of something. There was a brother who lived with us and was subject to all the pressure of our home, but I spent some time weekly with him listening to a huge personal pain he carried, praying with him, and sharing the Word. I heard several years after we left he told people that living in our home had been like a greenhouse to him. So far so good, I suppose. But the fact that we left and were "revealed" to be in darkness turned everything on it's head for him and was terribly confusing and added a new level of pain.

I am wondering how you all have evaluated your heartfelt "service for the Lord" in the Assembly.  I honestly don't know at this point. I am hoping that a discussion about this might shed some light for all of us.

Or maybe I am approaching this from an Assembly mindset and you all can set me straight!!??

[Joe Sperling]

Explorer----

Yes---if you read some of the posts, they are saying that----in a much milder way of course.
There are those (and generally it is those who were not exposed to very much abuse) who want
to say the abuse was "exaggerated" or didn't happen at all. Or, they will try to make what happened
to the victim the victim's own fault (such as wife-beating).

It would be similar to the guards and prisoners at Auschwitz both recalling the same events of the past. The guards could speak of the "good things they learned there", if asked, such as public speaking and organization, and would be very willing to downplay the abuse--especially because they didn't suffer much.  The prisoners on the other hand may remember "good things they learned" also, such as sharing their soup, learning to sleep through other people's snoring , and learning far more patience, etc., etc.  but they would never let you forget that it was a bad system, a bad place, and something that should never happen again. This is because they suffered a lot.

The guards would be willing to admit in one breath that "bad things happened there", and then in the same breath they would attempt to defend the very same place, as they kind of liked it there.  I am in no means trying to equate these posters with guards at Auschwitz, but I am saying they are showing a similar trait of someone who did not suffer abuse themselves, trying to tell others who know far better what they went through, that they are "exaggerating" or somehow "brought this upon themselves". These ones think of those who knew the abuse as "whiners" and complain that these cannot "leave the past behind". They do not know the wisdom of the words "Don't judge another man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins". They are too spiritually enlightened and elevated to try to understand this.

I believe we all DID good things in the Assembly, and things the Lord accepts towards his Kingdom. Unfortunately, we were also part of a system that espoused heresy, and hurt many people. We could work for a company that is guilty of producing faulty equipment. We may have done many individually good things towards others during the time we worked there, but if we somehow "knew" something was wrong with the company, and didn't say anything or do anything, we are partly responsible for the hurt and pain the company caused towards others. Many of us have stated we "knew" something was wrong with the Assembly and yet stayed. Different than being a "prisoner", we were "willing participants", though the case can be argued that though we were there willingly, we were "prisoners" just the same, in a psychological sense. Thank the Lord he is willing to forgive all that were involved if they sincerely repent. But I sincerely do not believe that the Lord is saying one should forget, or downplay, a situation as serious and hurtful as the one that existed there. It is something we can have learned from, but something we should never minimize, or forget.

But, perhaps the best thing I ever "did" in the Assembly was to leave it.

[Explorer]

Hi Joe,

I agree with what you are saying (have for a few years... although I think you would agree that your comparisons are a little extreme). But in your previous post, you put me as saying something different. However, your response here is what I am talking about. And that is what I am referring to as what people are saying. I am not refering to the intentions at all. But it seems that the tendency is that if there is a little bit of difference of opinion or perspective on some of these issues, the individuals are corrected or demeaned. The result of that has been the few posters that there are. People get tired of being beat down or having someone continue to come back with the truly correct perspective and then they just quit. I know I do.

Do you agree with this, or am I in left field?

[Joe Sperling]

Hi Joe,

I agree with what you are saying (have for a few years... although I think you would agree that your comparisons are a little extreme). But in your previous post, you put me as saying something different. However, your response here is what I am talking about. And that is what I am referring to as what people are saying. I am not refering to the intentions at all. But it seems that the tendency is that if there is a little bit of difference of opinion or perspective on some of these issues, the individuals are corrected or demeaned. The result of that has been the few posters that there are. People get tired of being beat down or having someone continue to come back with the truly correct perspective and then they just quit. I know I do.

Do you agree with this, or am I in left field?

No you are not in left field.  I think though, it is important to view the "tactics" of the posters that I referred to. For several months the boards were virtually free of any Assembly argument. There were references to the Assembly of course, perhaps because this is called the "assemblyboard" (LOL). But most of the posting had to do with Scripture, or topics regarding the Bible. But occasionally a discussion comes up regarding the Assembly itself. This time it was "what good things did you learn" in the Assembly? There was a little banter and good humor, and then one of these "posters" showed up.  It's amazing how quickly they show up for an "Assembly" discussion.  They always state how people on the BB just can't let the Assembly go, yet they are right there the minute there is any discussion about it---and usually to defend the Assembly in their roundabout way. They normally use other screen names (many times various names), and sometimes to the hilarity of all they will make one post under one name, and then make a second post praising the first post under another name! It's obvious the same person has made both posts! They think they're fooling everyone, but it is obvious and also very humorous! It is a  completely bungled deception, but kind of fun to watch as they put it into action! I have gotten many laughs out of it, and enjoy watching it all take place. It's kind of "old hat" now--same comments, same sentiments, same defense. Then, when the argument is over, and the cutting remarks are in, they are gone until the next "assembly argument" takes place.

Explorer--You are correct--my comparisons are extreme. But the traits in the people I am talking about are the same in my opinion. As far as I remember you haven't been beaten down when posting here, have you? If you have, I want to apologize for everyone for that. I don't detect an "agenda" in your posts at all. Sometimes there can be heated disagreements on the board, and in my opinion that's a good thing. No one should feel they have to leave because someone is trying to "set them straight". That's what an argument is really all about in many ways. I often have to set myself straight. That's because I am a schizophrenic. But I would be very interested in hearing what good thing you DID in the Assembly. Hope you don't feel you have to quit before you get a chance to share your ideas. I would be interested in hearing what you have to share.

[Christine]

Tom's question about what good things did you learn in the Assembly has produced insightful discussion. Here is another question: What were the good things you did in the Assembly to serve the Lord? Was it all tainted by the system? What about outreaches that were not subject to leadership control and "training", such as the retirement home outreach, puppets ,or mimes? What about individual talks with people to encourage them or share the gospel? What about helping folks?  There are former Assembly members in agony over this question, especially those who spent most of their adult lives in the system. Do they have to write it all off as a waste, or worse, as tainted and harmful?

Hi Margaret,

Some things come to mind. we had an outreach to a retirement home. We went there and regularly  visited one elderly woman. that was one good thing that I did. It wasnt a waste.

Thanks for starting this thread.

 

[brian]

"Look", I said, "we all know that Nazism was a bad thing, and the Holocaust
was a horrible occurrence, but do you have to keep reminding us all the time about it? Why can't you just take the good things you learned from the experience, however bad, and move on with your lives?

godwined!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

i do think you guys are being too hard on people here. the rest of the bb lays out the negatives in no uncertain terms. this space is for us to talk about the positives. so lets not use it to debate whether or not there were positives, or qualify all the positives, etc. rather, if you have something positive that comes to mind from your time in the assembly, feel free to drop it in here.

having said that, does anyone want me to try and chop all the other discussions into a new thread?

brian

[Joe Sperling]

Brian----

Never heard that law before. But I think it is true  Probably because it is the one of the
world's worst examples of deterioration into man's inhumanity to man.

My apologies for having a negative attitude---I remove myself from the conversation,
and admit I was wrong in my approach.

--Joe