The Assembly experience: Were there any good things you DID?

[Oscar]

Eric,

You said:

"So in answer to your question of how I evaluated my heartfelt "service for the Lord" in the Assembly, I have far too much to say to put it down now.  Was there any good?  Yes, there were many, many, many good things that we did.  There were innumerable good things we learned.  We can say these things and rejoice in them without being complicit with any of the evil, can we not?"

I agree with you, Eric. The assembly had some very dark and twisted aspects.  It also had some very good aspects.  For example, I have never seen any church with a congregational participation in evangelistic outreach that equalled what the assembly did.  Some of what we did was, unquestionably, silly.  But I know that the gospel was shared thousands of times in all sincerity.  That is not typical of evangelical churches.

Some might say that all that evangelistic outreach is not valuable because it was an attempt to draw people into the assembly.  However, in Philippians 1:12-20 Paul clearly said that he rejoiced that the gospel was shared, even when there were improper motives involved.  If Paul could rejoice about work done through "envy, strife, and selfish ambition", why can't we?  Even more, what about all the times the gospel was shared just out of a burdened heart and in God's service?

I do not agree with the idea that if one says anything good about their assembly experience they are of bad spiritual character and are justifying evil.  None of us has ever been completely without sin in anything we have done.  It does not follow from that fact that we never did anything good or praisworthy.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Oscar]

Mark,

All this talk of attempting to add-up all the "good things I did" is equivalent to the Pharisee recounting to God in the parable above "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers, or even like this tax collector."  (here comes his list) "I fast twice a week, and give a tenth of all I get."  Just think if this guy, was say, 50 years old and started his "did's" when he was 10--- see, 40 years times twice a week for his fasting + all his tithing etc.--- well, I let you make the calc.   Anyway, we know what Jesus thought of the quantity of his efforts--- all done in the name of God, btw.--- he did not think they were worth counting at all!

  The Pharisee was trying to "justify" himself before God by searching for "good things" in his past.  Former members trying to compare themselves to others may be involved in the same kind of self vindication efforts in an attempt to "make sense" of their past and rescue some personal equity from the ashes.  We don't have to do this----- all of our "equity" of goodness is provided for richly in God's gift of grace.  This frees us to be honest, find mercy, and reconcile with those we wronged while in the group.

This statement, "All this talk of attempting to add-up all the "good things I did" is equivalent to the Pharisee recounting to God in the parable above "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.", is quite incorrect. 

The Pharisees were a non-Christian sect of the Jews who believed that the way to a right relationship with God was through a meticulous keeping of the Law as well as following a long list of further customs and regulations based on rabinnical interpretations.  Basically, they believed in salvation by works. No one on this board believes that, Mark.  Legalism is a problem, no doubt about it.  But no true believer could ever become a Pharisee.  Only the 'poor in spirit" come to Christ at all.

When you refer to "all this talk of attempting to add up all the "good things I did", I must say I don't know who you are referring to.  Who advocated that?  Margaret just asked what good things were done. 

In another post you likened the assembly to the Church of Laodicea, with Christ standing on the outside knocking on the door.  Don't you think that might be a little extreme?  The problem at Laodicea was complacency due to a feeling that they were fully adequate in themselves, (Rev. 3:15-17).  It seems to me one of the biggest problems in the assembly was that so many people were led to despair because they felt so inadequate!  Do you really believe that the Good Shepherd was deaf to their cries?  Do you think he just abandoned them because their church had some bad beliefs and practices?

Mark, I know you have a heart for those harmed by the assembly.  That would be just about all of us, I believe.  I see real compassion for the "wounded pilgrims".  But I do not believe it will help anyone to blast everyone's past life with such powerful condemnation and scorn.  What we did that was wrong, was wrong.  But that is not the whole story.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom,

  I do believe that my references to "The Pharisee and the Publican", and "the Church of Laodicea" very much apply to our "Assembly experience."  Jesus, Paul, etc. often mentioned the practices of the Pharisee as an example not to follow as an exhortation to believers (and it is attitudes/behavior we are talking about here, not ones eternal security).  Jesus warned his disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, etc."  Why would he do so if there was no danger of falling into this same subtle trap?  Why warn the "foolish Galatians" re. getting caught in the trap of prideful Phariseeism, as clearly they were regenerated?

   While still a member the two above referenced passages spoke strongly to my heart, and along with other events, led to my waking up to the true nature of the group. Back then Dave S. sent me his "Sable News" which included the above parable of the "Phar. and Pub."  I got the message right away that the Assembly was the former and that we lacked the "poor in spirit" attitude of the Publican in the latter.

   Re. "Laodicea":  Bakht Singh made several visits to us, and each of these last times he came and preached on this passage in Rev.  I recall Mark Miller telling me, "he always preaches the same message, but I wonder why he does because it doesn't apply to us---- we're not like that."  Yet, we believed that this man was "God's prophet" and spoke at God's direction?  I kept these things in my heart and pondered them and came to the realization that Laodicea perfectly hit the mark re. the nature of the Assm.

  I absolutely do not believe that God "abandoned" those of us who were trapped in the group (nor have I ever suggested such a thing)!  On the contrary, God constantly was working to reach us (knocking at the door) because of his great concern for us!  As a matter of fact, this is the one most beneficial lesson to learn from our whole experience--- God's true attitude of love that seeks to find that one lost sheep that has wandered away.     God's speaking was never the issue--- it was our inability to hear what he was saying!

  Those trapped in bitterness over any past disappointments will remain in this condition unless they come to believe in the great goodness of this Good Shepherd!  However, it is not "bitter" to identify that past wandering as being in opposition to what God calls "good experiences."  Also, searching for redemption from that past via looking for goodness in our false religious wandering ultimately only involves evaluating  how "good" I was through the whole experience.  This self introspection can only lead to self justification if not accompanied with complete honesty re. my many moral failures that included supporting an abusive group (either actively or passively).

 The "blasting of former members lives in the group", that you suggest I am engaged in, is not at all what I'm intending.  Each individual life is very precious to God and great blessing for these is my desire.  However, God's intention for us to admit to our moral failures is not meant to destroy us---- rather, as the Publican, it will lead to great relief.  As believers we still need to experience the grace that comes to the humble.

  Many of us were engaged in abusive behavior toward one another and it is very hard for us to accept the facts that we were involved in doing just that.  Denial of my failures in this area can be attempts to defend my own view of self, but such a course will not bring healing.  The only thing we can lose by seeing that I was involved with this false cult is my wrong sense of pride as I compare how well I performed vs. other members.

  God's intention for us as individuals, and as churches, is to glory in his grace alone!  In my recollections of an Assembly past it is those times where God's message (contra the Assm's.) came through of God's gracious nature toward me.  This was the voice outside knocking to come into my life and set me free from a very wrong view of who God is and what my relationship to him should be.  Yes, Jesus does still save!  

                                                                       God Bless, Mark C.     

     

   
 

 

[trac4yt]

If you punched a fellow believer in the nose on on day 3,214 of the 10,000, for squeezing in on your parking lot space for the morning service, apologize and create a win-win for the next Sunday.

And don't fight over who gets the aisle seat.
 :rofl:

Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.  (Col 3:13)

(The knocking will stop.)

[Explorer]

The following is a story.

My father was a mechanic. He was a good mechanic. I currently am a mechanic because my father taught me to be a mechanic. Most of the things that I know about being a mechanic are from what he taught me.

My father was also an abusive alcoholic. He came home drunk and yelled a lot, sometimes beat us and was verbally abusive towards us. This was the cause for our home to not be a very secure place to be. Because of this, I don’t have a lot of nice things to say about my father. I would surely not be the first one to defend him in a conversation. Because of his irrational behavior, I left home as soon as I was old enough and I don’t have any plans to return. I also will not pattern my own home in this way.

However, he was not a completely wicked person. He did have some good qualities. He always worked to bring home the groceries. He did take us out to ball games and things like that so that we could have some fun. I do remember him hugging us, telling us that he loved us and even holding my mom’s hand and kissing her. He also taught me to be a mechanic and I still make a good living that way today.

When people ask me how I learned to be a mechanic, I tell them from my father. Is this defending him and his abusive system at home? Should I stop being a mechanic since it is something that he taught me how to do?

Should I never mention any good thing that he did or that I did while living in his home? Am I defending his alcoholism and abusive behavior if I do? If I foster any fond memories, then does this become a danger to me that I might pattern my life after his abuse. Or is there a danger in mentioning any thing good that someone might think that I am defending my father’s behavior and that possibly that person would become an alcoholic because of my truthfulness?

I wonder, does this story relate to our assembly experience, or is the logic off base?

[Oscar]

Explorer,

You said:

I wonder, does this story relate to our assembly experience, or is the logic off base?

I think your story is an excellent analogy to our assembly experience.  Earlier, I used the analogy of a small town with a corrupt government.  In such a place the corruption has some effect on everyone.  But the total effect varies from person to person depending on their degree of involvement with the source of the corruption.  Some would be very powerfully affected.  Others less so. 

Mark seems to feel that everything was so evil, wrong, and twisted that nothing of value can be salvaged from those experiences.  He also seems to feel that it is a moral and/or spiritual failure to look at any of our experiences there as valuable.  I simply disagree.

I spent much of my adult years involved with George Geftakys and then in the assembly, from 29 to 48.  I had some very positive experiences during those years.  I also had quite a few absolutely horrible experiences.  I learned many valuable things, but at a very high cost.  Nevertheless, I do not believe that GG's corruption should be allowed to take the value from everything.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Margaret]

In response to "Explorer's" scenario, I would observe that the child in such a home is in the victim position, whereas in the Assembly everyone was a victim of the deception, but many of us were also perpetrators in some way or other. In regard to my own Assembly experience I have to distingish between the effects on me, and my effect on others. The effects on me were a mixed bag. But the effect I had on others is different, because everything I did and said was perceived by the other person to be witihin in the context of the Assembly system. I failed to see this at the time. Many times there was, regretably, a congruence, i.e. what I said or did was an expression of the Assembly mindset/rules etc. But there were occasions, especially toward the end, where I was bucking the system and trying to offer real care and help to people. For example, when the Solomon teaching came in, I emphasized the line diagram about our position in Christ. But that was contradicted by GG's preaching and Betty's emphasis on red flags and the selfer's prayer. Here's another one--and you all will laugh that I could have been so naive--one of the younger brothers living with us had a very difficult time making decisions, was always asking for advice, and I was trying to help him gain confidence in his own judgment and ability to discern God's will. Hah! So I think basically, whatever good I thought I was trying to do was ineffectual. (And doubly so, in my case, because after we left I was revealed to have been evil.)

I realize I am an extreme case, but the principle seems to me to be true for any of us. For instance, if you shared the 4 Anchors with someone, they may have been beneficially discipled at first, but by the end you were attempting to recruit them into the group. That's why I said in an previous post that probably the only "untainted" service for God in the Assembly was witnessing,  preaching outside the Assembly, and non-recruiting and non-training outreachines like the retirement homes.

[outdeep]

There seems to be three lines of arguments as to why one cannot or should not answer the question "Were there any good things you did" or "were there any good things in the Assembly".

1.  To answer the question will somehow justify or soft-peddle the evil that was done in the Assembly.
2.  Considering the question provides emotional duress to those still struggling with the issue.
3.  No matter what is considered good, it was tainted by the Assembly system so it really wasn't good after all.

These replies and arguments simply do not take hold of me simply because I and others have answered the question quite straight-forwardly, and found profit in considering good things that we did and that I find profitable to this day.

To #1 I don't see that to be honest about the evil I have to be dishonest about what I found to be good.  To #2 I truly understand the sense of anger.  It was years before I stopped having the feeling where I had to "explain this wierd church I was in".
To #3 Every good we do is tainted by sin whether in the Assembly or out.  My ministry in Celebrate Recovery is motivated in part of my desire to be a part of a successful ministry and find something worth while.  But I still feel that the times I sat down for lunch with someone who is struggle with an issue is still "good" even though my sinful motivations and dysfunctional thinking may get mixed in at times.

A few weeks ago, I met with a brother who was abandoned by his father and found Christ in the Assembly.  He stopped attending meetings few years before the collapse due to health reasons (not Assembly related).  He said "I was never a George fan" but saw modeled "how to be a man" by some of the brothers in his satallite assembly.  He is thankful to God, a radient Christian and has a servant's heart.  He spoke of the earlier years where there was a sense of mission, genuine fellowship, and care for one another.  And there was because I was there and saw it with my own eyes.  He admits that as George's influenced this outreach, this loving community diminished to non-existance in the last decade.  I am just not ready to say to him, "no, none of the good in the early years is real.  Since it came from the Assembly, all of that is bad and you really have to go back to square one."

I learned in my recovery, that I have to be honest about the evil in the Assembly and not soft-soap what was generally wrong.  But, I have to be honest about the good things I took away and have a sense of gratitude towards God's gift even though I really didn't like the vessel through which it was delivered.  I took away tangible good things that are real (learning how to show hospitality in the Iron's House, learning how to prepare a devotional for an audience, leaning how to consistantly read my Bible, learning how to have ownership of the church I am in, learning how to read good Christian books outside of the popular fare, learning how to conduct an outreach, learning how to break down a passage of scripture, learning how to worship without techno-lights and a rock band, having my appetite whetted for church history, learning how to use community opportunities for outreach, learning how to have relationship that are closer and more intimate than any other church I have been to since, learning how to make Jesus Christ the most important thing in my life, etc.) 

No amount of argumentation is going to convince me these good things are not real and that the question of "good in the Assembly" is illegitimate and taboo.

[Oscar]

In response to "Explorer's" scenario, I would observe that the child in such a home is in the victim position, whereas in the Assembly everyone was a victim of the deception, but many of us were also perpetrators in some way or other. In regard to my own Assembly experience I have to distingish between the effects on me, and my effect on others. The effects on me were a mixed bag. But the effect I had on others is different, because everything I did and said was perceived by the other person to be witihin in the context of the Assembly system. I failed to see this at the time. Many times there was, regretably, a congruence, i.e. what I said or did was an expression of the Assembly mindset/rules etc. But there were occasions, especially toward the end, where I was bucking the system and trying to offer real care and help to people. For example, when the Solomon teaching came in, I emphasized the line diagram about our position in Christ. But that was contradicted by GG's preaching and Betty's emphasis on red flags and the selfer's prayer. Here's another one--and you all will laugh that I could have been so naive--one of the younger brothers living with us had a very difficult time making decisions, was always asking for advice, and I was trying to help him gain confidence in his own judgment and ability to discern God's will. Hah! So I think basically, whatever good I thought I was trying to do was ineffectual. (And doubly so, in my case, because after we left I was revealed to have been evil.)

I realize I am an extreme case, but the principle seems to me to be true for any of us. For instance, if you shared the 4 Anchors with someone, they may have been beneficially discipled at first, but by the end you were attempting to recruit them into the group. That's why I said in an previous post that probably the only "untainted" service for God in the Assembly was witnessing,  preaching outside the Assembly, and non-recruiting and non-training outreachines like the retirement homes.

Margaret,

I entered the assembly with a number of issues in my emotional life.  The first of these was a strong tendency towards depression caused by, (as I learned many years later), unresolved grief and anger over the untimely deaths of my birth family. By the time I was 27 years old I was the only survivor of the family I grew up in. 

The other issue was a very strong case of what is known nowdays as "low self-esteem".  I usually masked this behind an attitude of "I know the answers", and I worked very hard to actually know them.  I had not yet learned that the more you know the more you know you don't know.   

In the first years of the work and the assembly GG needed and wanted my help.  For whatever reason, he constantly encouraged me, taught me, and fellowshipped with me.  I admired him, wished I was more like him, and looked to him as sort of  combination of spiritual father and older brother in Christ. 

By the late 1970's and early 1980's several capable brothers, younger than I,  had come into the work and leading brothers.  GG grew increasingly critical of me and intolerant of my tendency to question his ideas and teachings.  This also affected the attitude of the other brothers towards me, and they became increasingly critical and began to withdraw from associating with me. 

I now realize that I had formed a strong emotional bond with GG and the assembly people as a sort of substitute family.  I found myself trying to walk a mental/emotional line between speaking out about what I thought was right or wrong, and longing for that sense of belonging to a caring, supporting company of people.  As the criticism and isolation grew, my emotional anguish and depression problems resurfaced, causing me all sorts of trouble in various areas of my life.

Then one day, one of the other leading brothers called me and said they he and his wife wished to visit me.  It was, I believe, the only time I received a visit from Fullerton during my entire time in the San Fernando Valley.  I asked what this was about, and was told that, "We'll let you know when we get there."

Based on what I had been experiencing, I worried some that I was about to get another emotional hammering about something I had said or done.

When the brother and his wife arrived, they asked to talk to me alone.  We went out in the back yard and sat down in the shade.  The wife gave me a letter she had written.  I opened it and read it.  It told me that this sister valued me, respected me, and appreciated the teaching I had given in the assembly over the years. 

Believe me, it was a cup of cold water in the midst of a desert land.  I have never forgotten that letter, or the kindness and concern that motivated its writing.  Just remembering that experience has brought some tears to my eyes.

I have always been profoundly grateful to you for that letter, Margaret.  I don't know if I thanked you then.  But let me take the opportunity to give you my profound thanks for that gracious act.  I will never forget it.

Your brother in Christ,

Tom Maddux
Matthew 10:42

[Margaret]

Wow, Tom! I didn't realize. Writing that letter was an unusual experience at the time, and a little strange, because here I was, a sister, writing to a brother. I never had any siblings, but I thought it probably felt exactly like that, sister to brother. I am so glad it helped a little. It is a warm and poignant memory for me, too.

Margaret

[moonflower2]

I don't want to make light of any goodness or kindness that was shown in the assemblies, but I was just thinking that unless we are in eternal hell, we can find good in anything. And even in hell, people will have been judged by God as to their works here, so that even there, apart from God, there is a justice for each individual, which I would consider to be a goodness, since it will have been tailored for each individual by God, just as heaven will be.

Achtung! Have a great Thanksgiving, all!
 
Moonflower

[moonflower2]

The following is a story.

My father was a mechanic. He was a good mechanic. I currently am a mechanic because my father taught me to be a mechanic. Most of the things that I know about being a mechanic are from what he taught me.

My father was also an abusive alcoholic. He came home drunk and yelled a lot, sometimes beat us and was verbally abusive towards us. This was the cause for our home to not be a very secure place to be. Because of this, I don’t have a lot of nice things to say about my father. I would surely not be the first one to defend him in a conversation. Because of his irrational behavior, I left home as soon as I was old enough and I don’t have any plans to return. I also will not pattern my own home in this way.

However, he was not a completely wicked person. He did have some good qualities. He always worked to bring home the groceries. He did take us out to ball games and things like that so that we could have some fun. I do remember him hugging us, telling us that he loved us and even holding my mom’s hand and kissing her. He also taught me to be a mechanic and I still make a good living that way today.

When people ask me how I learned to be a mechanic, I tell them from my father. Is this defending him and his abusive system at home? Should I stop being a mechanic since it is something that he taught me how to do?

Should I never mention any good thing that he did or that I did while living in his home? Am I defending his alcoholism and abusive behavior if I do? If I foster any fond memories, then does this become a danger to me that I might pattern my life after his abuse. Or is there a danger in mentioning any thing good that someone might think that I am defending my father’s behavior and that possibly that person would become an alcoholic because of my truthfulness?

I wonder, does this story relate to our assembly experience, or is the logic off base?

The logic is okay; it's just not the end of the story.

[amycahill]

Thank you for this topic, Margaret.

Good things I remember:

• Singing with the group in the Huntington Beach Fourth of July parade.
• Beach volleyball and cookouts.
• Coming back to visit about 10 years later and having one of the guys look at me in awe and say, "You SAVED me!"  (I guess I was the one who prayed with him to receive Jesus.)  As jaded as I was by then, that really made an impression on me.
• Going to Carl's Jr. and blowing straw wrappers at each other because we were silly.
• The relationships that outlasted the destruction, and the people who actually cared while I was there.

And...post-Assembly...being told by Wendy Hinman that the reason I had been such a "failure" in the Assembly was because I was too much of a critical thinker.  Okay, I know that's post-Assembly, but that was one of the best compliments I ever received!   

Were these things I DID, per se, that were good?  Well, except for that brother, not really.  But they're the things that WERE good, so I'm listing them anyway. 

[amycahill]

To me, this conversation is like a parent driving along with his son and asked casually, "Isn't that a lovely church steeple?"  The son whips around in anger and screams at the parent, "STOP SHOVING RELIGION DOWN MY THROAT!!!!"

I think this is a wonderful way to put it (late to the party, as usual!)

Oh, and hasn't "outer darkness" turned out to be rather a nice place after all? 

[amycahill]

So, a "leader" was not teaching this.
Assumed, is other leaders were not beating their wives.
Assumed, is other leaders were not teaching church husbands to beat their wives.
Assumed, is other leaders were not instructing single men to beat their wives if they should marry.

Assumed, the wife beaten was involved 30, or so, years with her leader husband in your churches?  Did she or he want help?

Unique situation?
 

Tracy:

What is your purpose in being here?