The Assembly experience: Were there any good things you DID?

[amycahill]

May all from your churches go everywhere for the Master.

Trac4yt:

Thank you for the good wishes, but who is your Master? 

[amycahill]

On October 15th, Margaret asked: “What aspects of  your Assembly experience assure you that God was still working in your life? Or do we have to consider the years we spent there as exclusively a negative education? … I am wondering how you all have evaluated your heartfelt "service for the Lord" in the Assembly.  I honestly don't know at this point. I am hoping that a discussion about this might shed some light for all of us.”

In response, I want to list a few of the many things that I learned, implemented, and took away with me when I left.

[list of many wonderful things redacted]

Well, the list goes on. Let’s take up Margaret’s question and focus on the things we learned and the things we did that were good. Remember that in spite of the way this organization oppressed, controlled and abused, God’s Word was still preached. When God’s Word goes forth, it does not return void without accomplishing God’s purpose.

Lord bless,
Flora

What a tremendously inspiring list, Flora!  Thank you for sharing that -- it helped me.[/list]

[amycahill]

Oh, and so many people here knock themselves for what they did wrong.  I'm going to praise a former leading sister, Wendy Hinman, to the skies for what she did right.

Towards the end of my Assembly experience, I was under discipline for inconsistent attendance.  In reality, this was leadership's last-ditch attempt to control me.  I was in really, really bad shape at the time.  I wasn't working and was completely self-destructing at home.  My Calvary Chapel roommates (I had not been allowed to live in a sisters' home because they were afraid I'd rock the boat!) put me on a plane to my parents.  I had a choice:  I could get on that plane or move out of their house and stay in the Assembly.  The person I reached was Wendy, and Wendy helped me get out.  And took whatever that cost her.

I'm not sure I would have survived -- physically survived -- had I stayed.  Wendy saved my life.

[trac4yt]

..I didn't realize..

a.c.

Happy Thanksgiving!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8welVgKX8Qo

Please pass the rolls.
 

"In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." (1Th 5:18)

[Mark C.]

Mark seems to feel that everything was so evil, wrong, and twisted that nothing of value can be salvaged from those experiences.  He also seems to feel that it is a moral and/or spiritual failure to look at any of our experiences there as valuable.  I simply disagree.

 The above quote demonstrates just how emotional this discussion has become for both sides of the issue.  I have already admitted that this topic is very difficult and that it invokes a strong reaction from me.  It is apparent that emotion is on the other side of the argument as well, because I have many times indicated that Tom's impression of what I'm saying here (his quote above) is not what I'm saying at all.

  I will try and state it again (briefly  ):  I am not saying everyone and everything done while members is a result of "evil" intentions, nor that there was no "good" done while in the group.  What I am saying is that the group operated on the basis of cultic principles and that these controlling dynamics were indeed evil and need to be admitted to and repented of.  To the degree any individual rejected those bad principles and heard God's voice and responded good things could and did happen.

  I apologize to those offended by my strong emotional reaction, but please understand it is not against individual persons, but against a system that did much harm (love the Pharisee while hating the Phariseeism )  Each side of the argument can trot out personal testimonies that give evidence to "good and evil".  The faces of those whose lives were very badly damaged (spiritually and emotionally) come to view in my thoughts constantly and they far outweigh in my mind any positive events.  The "good" things I see as operating separately from the group and coming from God.  

  To understand the "emotional" context from which both sides of this argument are possibly coming from, and a remedy for reconciliation consider, "The Stanford Experiment" that Brian first posted, and Tom also brought up again, where two groups were formed: one group were prisoners and one were designated as guards.  I trust that most readers are familiar with what went on with the experiment, but imagine now a meeting with "guards and prisoners" at the end of the whole psychological experiment.

  Both groups come together and discuss the situation---- can you picture the emotional tension as these two face each other?!  The prisoners are seeking vindication of their abused status by the guards and the guards would be amazed at the "vehemence" of these prisoners reaction.  The prisoners accuse the guards of the most vile actions, accusing them of great "evil" in an effort to find some justice and peace for their tormented souls, while the guards accuse the prisoners of making a bigger deal out of the whole thing than is justified by their actual treatment.

  Not all prisoners or guards are equal here and the "sides" become blurred because some guards had pangs of conscience and were not as abusive and some prisoners also violated their conscience by making deals with the guards during the experiment to earn favor, and so to speak, joined with the guards.  This is similar to many Assm. leader/members who walked both sides of the division, but still saw themselves locked into their roles in the system.

   All of these emotional issues above are rooted in trying to deal with matters of conscience, and each side has a dog in the fight: the guards trying to feel better about their abusive past actions and the abused trying to get the guards to admit their culpability in an attempt to relieve their own feeling of violation.  Remember, like the Assembly, there is a blurring between the lines between "prisoner and guard" and some will be worse/better than others.  In the book "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" the authors note that most abusive leaders are not aware that they are doing anything wrong at all-- and as such, are victims as well of the abusive system.

  It is a mistake for former Assm. "prisoners" to think that "the guards" will ever admit that they were abusive, or that they were even passively involved in abuses.  Most certainly abused members cannot seek relief in the expectation that the abuser will ever admit their evil---- this, again, will make us dependent for our peace on those incapable/unwilling of providing it.  I will admit that I have struggled with this "prisoner" vindication emotion, and that, like Joe, have felt like discussing this issue was too difficult for me to handle.

  For both groups we must find our personal vindication and resolution in another source other than trying to "find the good" when a member, or on the other side, getting leaders to "admit how evil it was" while in the Assm.  God understands both roles (in all their complexity) and seeks to bless both groups.  For those seeking to justify their involvement and make their consciences feel better, and for those trying to gain a feeling of resolution by gaining an admission of culpability by the leaders the only escape is to humbly approach our loving Father for the balm of Gilead that brings healing.  Both sides, however, must be honest with our strong prejudices/denials/feelings or there can never be recovery from our Assm. past.

                                                                     Thankfully we have a Good God!  Mark C.    

[vernecarty]

You and Tom may not be so far apart on this as it would seem.
Clearly our faith in God leads us to conclude that since he makes all things work together for good for those who love him, that conviction can be applied to our assembly experience.
That truth notwithstanding, I think Mark's larger point is that this perspective should in no way diminish or mitigate our recognition of the serious harm that was done to so many by Geftakys and his enablers, of whom I once was, albeit in ignorance.                   .
George Geftakys was a wicked person.
The assemblies were in the main corrupt and corrupting.
One simply has to ask to arrive at a correct assessment of that era:

If I had to do it all over again, would I?

Even more essentially, would I want anyone else to have that experience?
Verne

[trac4yt]

v.

Is this George person a saved man?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Ac 16:31)

[Oscar]

You and Tom may not be so far apart on this as it would seem.
Clearly our faith in God leads us to conclude that since he makes all things work together for good for those who love him, that conviction can be applied to our assembly experience.
That truth notwithstanding, I think Mark's larger point is that this perspective should in no way diminish or mitigate our recognition of the serious harm that was done to so many by Geftakys and his enablers, of whom I once was, albeit in ignorance.                   .
George Geftakys was a wicked person.
The assemblies were in the main corrupt and corrupting.
One simply has to ask to arrive at a correct assessment of that era:

If I had to do it all over again, would I?

Even more essentially, would I want anyone else to have that experience?
Verne

Verne,

An interesting question.  (BTW great to hear from you)

Back in my assembly years I used to shake my head in wonder when GG would attempt to claim that we were the cutting edge of what God was doing in the world.  I would reason that If we really are the ne plus ultra of 'what God wants", then God would have to be grossly incompetent.  He was using all the churches that were NOT "what God wants" to bring huge numbers of his children to new birth.  Then he would leave them in those churches where they were taught all the wrong things.  Hmmmmmmm.

So, I just figured that GG didn't have a clue what God was doing in and through the church.  Although I did believe the "New Testament pattern" stuff in the early years, I never could accept GG's disdain for everyone else.  It didn't look to me as if God placed nearly as high a value on the "pattern" as GG and the Plymouth Brethren did. 

Now, I sometimes think about the assembly in the opposite way.  God certainly has the ability to prevent people from getting into such messes, and the ability to quickly get them out if he wished to do so.  But he did neither.  So, it does not appear to me that God thinks about the assembly as we are prone to do.  He allows the "assemblies" of the world  to exist, along with lots of worse places. ( I recall reading in "Churches that Abuse" about a woman forced to clean a bathroom floor with her tongue!)   

I figure that given the beliefs I held in 1970, the level of emotional maturity and life experience I had at the time, I would be very likely to fall under GG's or some other similar leader's influence.

That is why I pointed out Psalm 66:8-15 in an earlier post.  All I know is that God knows what he is doing in the life of every one of his children.  He does as seems best to him.  So, did God SEND me into the assembly?  I don't know.  But sometimes I wonder.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Oscar]

v.

Is this George person a saved man?

This has been debated pro and con on this board several times.  My association with GG in the early years leads me to believe that he is definitely a Christian. 

Folks of the Reformed persuasion tend to believe he is not a Christian.  Their teaching that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian sort of forces them into this position.

My own take is that he is genuinely saved, but that a combination of sin, psychological problems, and false teaching has caused him to become delusional. 

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[trac4yt]

Perhaps there was another man somewhere forcing a 30 year "black out" by God on G., that created another 30 year "black out" on 10,000, etc.

Could there be others? 

 

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."  (Eph 2:8-10)

[trac4yt]

Excellent Question  !!

Let your ponderings begin.. :rofl:

Ge 24:9-10,12,14,27,35-37,39,42,44,48-49,51,54,56,65; 39:2-3,7-8,19-20; Ex 21:4-6,8,32; 22:8; De 23:15; Jg 19:11-12,22-23; 1Sa 20:38; 24:6; 25:10,14,17; 26:16; 29:4,10; 30:13,15; 2Sa 2:7; 9:9-10; 12:8; 16:3; 1Ki 22:17; 2Ki 2:3,5,16; 5:1,18,20,22,25; 6:5,15,22-23,32; 8:14; 9:7,31; 10:2-3,6,9; 18:24,27; 19:4,6; 1Ch 12:19; 15:27; 2Ch 18:16; Job 3:19; Pr 27:18; 30:10; Isa 1:3; 24:2; 36:8-9,12; 37:4,6; Da 1:3; 4:9; 5:11; Mal 1:6; 2:12; Mt 8:19; 9:11; 10:24-25; 12:38; 17:24; 19:16; 22:16,24,36; 23:8,10; 26:18,25,49; Mr 4:38; 5:35; 9:5,17,38; 10:17,20,35; 11:21; 12:14,19,32; 13:1,35; 14:14,45; Lu 3:12; 5:5; 6:40; 7:40; 8:24,45,49; 9:33,38,49; 10:25; 11:45; 12:13; 13:25; 14:21; 17:13; 18:18; 19:39; 20:21,28,39; 21:7; 22:11; Joh 1:38; 3:10; 4:31; 8:4; 9:2; 11:8,28; 13:13-14; 20:16; Ac 27:11; Ro 14:4; Eph 6:9; Col 4:1; 2Ti 2:21

Supplemental hint..

Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:15-16)

You win a 2nd piece of pumpkin pie!  Enjoy.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1hhqrgoZag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWwNwphuvbw&feature=related

que manifestera en son temps le bienheureux et seul souverain, le roi des rois, et le Seigneur des seigneurs, qui seul possède l'immortalité, qui habite une lumière inaccessible, que nul homme n'a vu ni ne peut voir, à qui appartiennent l'honneur et la puissance éternelle. Amen! (1Ti 6:15-16)

La cual á su tiempo mostrará el Bienaventurado y solo Poderoso, Rey de reyes, y Señor de señores; Quien sólo tiene inmortalidad, que habita en luz inaccesible; á quien ninguno de los hombres ha visto ni puede ver: al cual sea la honra y el imperio sempiterno. Amén. (1Ti 6:15-16)

welche wird zeigen zu seiner Zeit der Selige und allein Gewaltige, der König aller Könige und HERR aller Herren, der allein Unsterblichkeit hat, der da wohnt in einem Licht, da niemand zukommen kann, welchen kein Mensch gesehen hat noch sehen kann; dem sei Ehre und ewiges Reich! Amen. (1Ti 6:15-16)

[moonflower2]

Let your ponderings begin.. :rofl:

You are laughing? My ponderings.... hm....you think you are God.
You have my attention....When you translate all the verses below into German, you'll have my rapt attention. I enjoy reading German. Just be original and refrain from using LEO or copying from another site. Do your own work.

Ge 24:9-10,12,14,27,35-37,39,42,44,48-49,51,54,56,65; 39:2-3,7-8,19-20; Ex 21:4-6,8,32; 22:8; De 23:15; Jg 19:11-12,22-23; 1Sa 20:38; 24:6; 25:10,14,17; 26:16; 29:4,10; 30:13,15; 2Sa 2:7; 9:9-10; 12:8; 16:3; 1Ki 22:17; 2Ki 2:3,5,16; 5:1,18,20,22,25; 6:5,15,22-23,32; 8:14; 9:7,31; 10:2-3,6,9; 18:24,27; 19:4,6; 1Ch 12:19; 15:27; 2Ch 18:16; Job 3:19; Pr 27:18; 30:10; Isa 1:3; 24:2; 36:8-9,12; 37:4,6; Da 1:3; 4:9; 5:11; Mal 1:6; 2:12; Mt 8:19; 9:11; 10:24-25; 12:38; 17:24; 19:16; 22:16,24,36; 23:8,10; 26:18,25,49; Mr 4:38; 5:35; 9:5,17,38; 10:17,20,35; 11:21; 12:14,19,32; 13:1,35; 14:14,45; Lu 3:12; 5:5; 6:40; 7:40; 8:24,45,49; 9:33,38,49; 10:25; 11:45; 12:13; 13:25; 14:21; 17:13; 18:18; 19:39; 20:21,28,39; 21:7; 22:11; Joh 1:38; 3:10; 4:31; 8:4; 9:2; 11:8,28; 13:13-14; 20:16; Ac 27:11; Ro 14:4; Eph 6:9; Col 4:1; 2Ti 2:21

Supplemental hint..


Quote
Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:15-16)

You win a 2nd piece of pumpkin pie!  Enjoy.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1hhqrgoZag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWwNwphuvbw&feature=related


Quote
que manifestera en son temps le bienheureux et seul souverain, le roi des rois, et le Seigneur des seigneurs, qui seul possède l'immortalité, qui habite une lumière inaccessible, que nul homme n'a vu ni ne peut voir, à qui appartiennent l'honneur et la puissance éternelle. Amen! (1Ti 6:15-16)


Quote
La cual á su tiempo mostrará el Bienaventurado y solo Poderoso, Rey de reyes, y Señor de señores; Quien sólo tiene inmortalidad, que habita en luz inaccesible; á quien ninguno de los hombres ha visto ni puede ver: al cual sea la honra y el imperio sempiterno. Amén. (1Ti 6:15-16)


Quote
welche wird zeigen zu seiner Zeit der Selige und allein Gewaltige, der König aller Könige und HERR aller Herren, der allein Unsterblichkeit hat, der da wohnt in einem Licht, da niemand zukommen kann, welchen kein Mensch gesehen hat noch sehen kann; dem sei Ehre und ewiges Reich! Amen. (1Ti 6:15-16)
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:49:36 pm by trac4yt » 
 

[Oscar]

Trac,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1hhqrgoZag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWwNwphuvbw&feature=related

1. Selection of hymns-A.

2. Skill of perfomers-A.

3. Quality of arrangement-D.

Regarding your coded message, if you wish to just say it...I will read it.  If you don't wish to, not interested.

Tom Maddux

[trac4yt]

You'll notice that yakomoto via a.c. wanted insight on the term, "Master".

[Christine]

You'll notice that yakomoto via a.c. wanted insight on the term, "Master".

Trac.

I somehow doubt that was the point.

I for one have very little interest in visiting the youtube links and find that your posts provide no contribution to this thread or any others

As another poster requested maybe you could start your own thread of you tube links.




moon. wrote
"You are laughing? My ponderings.... hm....you think you are God.
You have my attention....When you translate all the verses below into German, you'll have my rapt attention. I enjoy reading German. Just be original and refrain from using LEO or copying from another site. Do your own work"

Good points

want our attention? post something of substance that doesnt come across as mocking others without the useless links to you tube.