Tell the Whole Story

[trac4yt]

Tom,

Yes. Excellent.

Now I can cancel the advanced Krav Maga class at the BHCC*
The introductory course nearly killed me.
 

------
* Bounty Hunter Community College

[Joe Sperling]

Tom---

I appreciate your analogy of the "small town"---that's a good way of putting it. The reason I used a "battered woman's center" instead of "one" relationship was basically to put forth the same point. In a "center" everyone's experience is going to be different.

Do you not remember sitting around the dinner table in a brother's house laughing uproariously at some story or joke?  How is that like a wife beating?

I do remember times like this for sure Tom. But must point out that in many abusive relationships, the wife isn't beaten "all of the time", and may have times of laughter with the same husband who may beat her just a few hours later. We all had "good times" that we can remember in the brother's houses--I have several memories that make me smile and laugh.  In my case though, even though I have these "funny memories", the "whole picture" is one of legalism, false teaching, and needless abuse, coupled with false guilt, that took years to overcome. I do not choose to try to find good things that came from my experience there.

Like an abusive relationship, I'm sure I can find things that made me laugh during the time inbetween the mistreatment. But I prefer to be grateful I "escaped" the situation, and the system,
rather than trying to find the good within the system while I "endured" it. But that's just me. I understand your point of view on this subject, and I truly respect it.

I appreciate the humor in the post below(Trac4yt) regarding this, but it was not meant in any way as a "bounty hunt" for guilty parties who did the abusing. The whole analogy was to point out that we need to remember that there are still many in recovery, who are very confused, hurt, and really don't know where to turn. Calling them "whiners" for mentioning the abuse they have endured will not help them. My whole point actually revolved around that---trying to find the "good things we learned" will not help those who are suffering and hurting and confused. They don't even know what that question means. They have just started the process, and need to work through the steps of recovery.

Tom---I do appreciate your thoughts though, and do thank you for taking the time to read my analogy(perhaps my use of "allegory" is an incorrect term for the story). Even though you feel it is an incorrect analogy, that's OK. Perhaps I am way off base. I appreciate the discussion though---I truly do. And I still appreciate the fact that we can have discussions here on the BB---sometimes even very heated ones  ---and still remain brothers in Christ, respecting each others opinions.

God bless,  Joe

[outdeep]

My whole point actually revolved around that---trying to find the "good things we learned" will not help those who are suffering and hurting and confused. They don't even know what that question means. They have just started the process, and need to work through the steps of recovery.

No doubt.  But that does not mean that this "good things we learned" question is illegitimate and unfruitful for those of us who are no longer traumatized.

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

Again, I could be off-base here. But this is how I thought of it:  A bit like the verses where Paul says that if you have the "liberty" to drink wine, drink wine. But if it might stumble your brother, it's best not to do it in front of them. You or I may have totally overcome past abuse, and be able to talk freely concerning such things. But the person who is not free can become extremely confused by someone who accuses them of "whining" about their past abuse, or on the other hand, speaking of the "good things" that came out of it.  I could be totally wrong, and admit that---but that is how I have seen this from the beginning.  Here is a reference:

Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. (Rom. 14:19-21)

I know that Romans 14 is mainly dealing with food. But it is also discussing anything that can cause our brother to stumble. Perhaps I was being far too protective (knowing my own past history of abuse and recovery and how easily I could be "bummed out", or give up hope for many years, had a strong influence in this way of thinking for sure), but truly felt it was better not to even try to find "good things" in a system that could cause such harm and suffering to Christ's sheep. I felt all it could lead to was to cause confusion, and hurt those attempting to recover. If my thinking was, and is, too extreme, please forgive me. I acknowledge the fact that my thinking may be blurred by my own experience, and the desire to protect others from the same things. I just remember the process of recovery all too well---and confusion and uncertainty played large rolls in that process for some time *** (see below).

Just admitting I had been abused was a huge step actually--I was literally afraid for several years to even admit that the system was wrong, and that I had been hurt by it. If I were to have had someone come up to me and ask "What good things did you learn there?" and then upbraid me for not separating the abuse from what I felt I had learned, I would have been totally confused. I know that there are some who never post--who come to the board for help--who are hurt and confused, and just don't know what to do. If I have had an "over protective" mindset for those ones, again, my apologies. My journey has just been a very long one---and I feel for those just coming around the first turn. It sounded like we might be putting extra hurdles in front of them---and the recovery path is hard enough as it is.

***from above:  I should have gauged my own experience a little differently here, as I left several years before the Assembly came to an end. I really had no way of knowing that anyone thought anything amiss. The only negative info I had was that a cult awareness group(Christian Research Institute) in San Clemente had a "file" on George at the time and told me they considered the group "aberrant". Of course though, when I presented this "evidence" to continuing members in the Assembly, the easily shot down this "proof" and said it was Satan at work. So it took years to finally get the "proof" I needed (2002 when the Assembly fell apart), and realize (and finally accept) that I had been deceived and abused by that system.

[trac4yt]

From d.s...

..those of us who are no longer traumatized.

Lazarus lives!!  Lazarus lives!!
  

"Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] forty years four days. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?" (Joh 11:39-40)

[Mark C.]

Thanks Tom,

  I'm thanking you for the clear and thoughtful post in response to mine.  I know that in making the comments that you did that you are not endorsing those that wish to minimize, excuse, or downright try to misrepresent the bad that went on (as some posters have done).

  You are quite right in your analysis of what goes on in some former members due to the trauma that they have received in the group.  You are also right that a bitter spirit of revenge is a very destructive force in ones life.  How to overcome the trauma you speak of is easier for some than it is for others, and in order for us to really help we can't just resort to cliche answers---- even typical Christian cliche answers.

  "Learn to forgive", "forgetting those things that are past", or "just obey Christ", while having blessed meaning in the proper context can end up being about as helpful as telling someone to "not to take any wooden nickels."  Why is that?  It is because those phrases were all used on us by those who turned them into weapons of abuse. "But", some will protest. "this is the word of God"!  Clearly, the bible can be misused, and we of all people should be able to understand that(and I know you do).

   As Joe stated below, it took him many years to try to learn the real meaning of Christ's forgiveness, and learning to live free of the trauma that gripped his soul.  Some are still struggling many years afterwards, and it is for these that we must try to help.  We need to offer patient understanding, not "get over it" exhortations (again, I know you understand this, but I write it for others). 

  Helping begins by being willing to listen and then learning to sympathize with those in pain ("Weep with those weep").  This was a very painful experience for many and when there are those that took your question and used it to suggest the Assembly was a place for "good mentoring", and attempted to suggest the leaders were "following Christ"!  (Tom, are you endorsing Trac4. and Marty's comments?  I know you don't, but it would be good to hear you clearly say so.)

  It is to this that I became "vehement" against, and this is not a reflection of my holding on to any grudges, unforgiveness, bitterness, etc.  Nor, does Christ command us to take leave of our moral senses by changing forgiveness into a passive response to abusive behavior in his church.

  I do not wish to "bounty hunt" the former leaders, for that is God's job.  However, I do want to resist (at least where I can) the concept that the Assembly represented correctly who God is, what it means to be a Christian, and what a church should be.  Why should I resist? because it is so obvious that there are still so many who think the place was just swell.

  We can forgive and love our persecutors (a blessed freedom in Christ) but, we should never confuse that with passivity in the face of those that promote abuse when we have the power to resist it.  This resistance sometimes can only be in word (spoken/printed), but we must have the courage to do so. This is especially true because we are talking about abuse within a "Christian" context.

  For those that think the Assm. was just a great church with a bad leader who fell, then you will think I'm way too "vehement," and my opinions of the group are in error.  I have no problem in politely discussing this with any who wish to do so.  However, when any advocate of the Assm. defense position is not going to have an honest discussion I will definitely call them on it.

                                                               God bless,  Mark C.   

   

   

[Oscar]

Joe,

You said:

So it took years to finally get the "proof" I needed (2002 when the Assembly fell apart), and realize (and finally accept) that I had been deceived and abused by that system.

Wow!  I had no idea that you had such a difficult time getting your mind around the idea that the assembly was seriously wrong about some of their teachings and practices.  It was the teachings that first got me to wondering about the validity of some of GG's ideas.

As I am sure you remember, I was very much in awe of GG in the early days of the assembly.  His claims of having great spiritual insight into the true meaning of the scriptures seemed reasonable to me at the time.  However, after listening to several different explanations of the partial rapture teaching, and then asking him questions, it did not seem to be based on any clear teaching of the scriptures.  So, I began to read books about the rapture.

First I discovered that other men had clearer explainations of many of GG's key scriptures.  He frequently used the story of the wise and foolish virgins as a major support for his idea.  One day I notice that there was absolutely no difference between the behavior of the different groups of virgins.  They were all fast asleep!  The difference was in what they possessed, not in what they did!

The next thing I saw was that what GG claimed was "greater light" shown to him by the Holy Spirit had been around for over a century.  The partial rapture theory had been advocated in the early 1800's by A.N. Groves, (a PB), and some others among the Brethren, such as George Pember.  But when I read "Rethinking the Rapture" by E. Schuyler English he offered an analysis and refutation of the teaching that made a lot of sense to me.

Finally, shortly after I had moved to Fullerton in 1984, (the year Jesus was supposed to return according to our enlightened leader), I finally sat down one sunday morning and looked up every scripture I could think of that dealt with that subject of Jesus' coming again.  It was John 14:2-3 that finished the partial rapture idea for me.  Jesus said, "If I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and recieve you to myself, that where I am you may be also."  I saw that my future state was dependent upon the faithfulness of Jesus, not on mine.  His promise is true, so GG had to be wrong.

That finished it for me.  Then I began to see just how GG tried to use this teaching to control people, especially those he suspected of considering leaving.  After that I began to see the cracks in some of his other ideas.

You also said:

I do remember times like this for sure Tom. But must point out that in many abusive relationships, the wife isn't beaten "all of the time", and may have times of laughter with the same husband who may beat her just a few hours later.

That is where the problem with your analogy appears, Joe.  Yes, GG was abusive at times.  So were many of his faithful lieutenants.  But everybody didn't beat up on everybody.  There were many, many other relationships and experiences in the assembly.  I agree that the negative garbage ruined it and made it a place that we are all better off without.   But that still doesn't mean that everything that went on was evil and wrong.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

[Oscar]

Mark,

You said:

(Tom, are you endorsing Trac4. and Marty's comments?  I know you don't, but it would be good to hear you clearly say so.)

Which comments?

Tom Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

Tom---

You said:
Wow!  I had no idea that you had such a difficult time getting your mind around the idea that the assembly was seriously wrong about some of their teachings and practices.

Perhaps that is part of the problem Tom. You are looking at things based on your own experience of recovery, how you came to your own conclusions, and what "you learned" as a result. Perhaps you are forgetting the difficulty others have had coming to terms with the past. Because you saw things "logically" through reading books comparing them to George's teachings doesn't mean others saw or experienced things the same way.
 
Many were able to look at things "logically" as you did--others were traumatized beyond belief with fear, doubt and worry. I understand that I am looking at things from "my own experience" also, but also accepting the fact that for some it has been easy, but for others it has been extremely difficut. For some recovery was quick, for others it took years. Your expression of surprise at the difficult time I had accepting this surprises me though, as I'm sure you know of some people that have taken many years to recover.

I recently went to lunch with a brother I had not seen for nearly 28 years. He was one of the leaders in the Valley way back, and used to post on this board quite frequently a year or so back. He left the Assembly just about the same time I did, and with many of the same "fears" I had. He had been leader of one of the brothers houses I lived in, where I experienced abuse that literally took years from which to recover. He has apologized for all of his involvement with that abuse, and I have apologized to him also, and I love the brother dearly now, and understand his own pain much more clearly now.

He "sensed" something was wrong there, but when he left, due to the indoctrination and teaching, felt he had failed the Lord miserably. He literally felt he was destined for the Lake of Fire. So much fear ruled him that he was "blinded" to the very logical conclusion that there was something amiss in the Assembly. He literally went twenty years in this same mindset, until this board came about in 2002 and a couple of brothers contacted him and told him he should visit this site. As with my own experience, it had taken the Assembly's demise to awaken him to the fact that he actually wasn't "cast off from the Lord". The very fact that the Assembly had fallen apart was an awakening factor in his coming out of the deep deception he was under. It was this BB that greatly helped in his return to the Lord, and his shaking off the false guilt that had bound him for several years!

My experience was similar. I "knew" inside something was wrong, but when I left, the system was fully intact, and those still involved acted as though I had left "God's best". So, even though I knew something was wrong, I still held onto the belief that it was possible I was wrong. What if the Assembly really was of the Lord? What if I really was just a "disgruntled ex-member"
as the continuing members there were telling me? I really had no "proof" except my own doubts about the place. Even after a couple of Pastor's explained to me fully that the Assembly system was wrong, I still couldn't shake the doubts. In my case it did take until 2002 to "awaken" from a belief that I was "unusable" and a "failure" before the Lord.  If you say "Wow!" Tom that's understandable---but perhaps you really haven't considered the testimonies of others who have much the same story. Not everyone comes to the "logical" conclusions you did--some were so psychologically devastated that it took a different type of healing to bring them out of the fear and doubt.

Fear can be a great crippler, as can false guilt. Getting past those fears can be very difficult. I really wish I had been able to "logically" think things out back then----but I couldn't. I'd read books, "feel" free, and descend into condemnation once again. Fear controlled me at the time, and for several years afterwards. The "nagging doubts" just would not go away that "maybe it was all true". When the Assembly came crashing down in 2002 I was amazed!! It really had been a false system all along!! Finally my conscience was free. I have spoken with others who shared almost the same experience.

As I mentioned in another post, If somone is terrified of spiders, reading books about how harmless they are, or trying to "logically" reason through the fear is not going to help. One has to have "proof" themselves that they are not as horrible as one fears. Some people go years and years afraid of something that is based on a "false fear". It takes a "deprogramming" in a sense, with some--a moment of realization that the fears they have are baseless. This was my experience and could be based largely on "when" I left the Assembly--the other brother I spoke of had a similar experience and left at about the same time. I don't know all of the factors, but I do remember the process.

So "Wow!" is right. A deceived mind can believe things that seem ridiculous to another person. Only that deceived person can know the path it took to get to a place of awakening. Praise God He is the "Good Shepherd" and He finally led me out of that "valley of shadows" into green pastures, and beside still waters.

P.S. I never said "everything" was evil there. I'm not sure why you still have the idea I have been saying that. All I said is that when mentioning "good things" we need to put it into the context of the bad environment in which it was learned. If you disagree that's fine--perhaps you don't see the need to mention that. I obviously do.

[Joe Sperling]

GUINESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS     2007 EDITION

Longwinded Answers:

Joe Sperling, North Hollywood, California, when asked "What's your middle name?" took a total of (6)   paragraphs, comprising 45 words each,  to answer the question. November 11, 2006.

[Joe Sperling]

I came to a realization last night, and also again this morning, and wanted to share it. A "confession" so to speak.

For some time now, when I am sitting alone, deep in thought, or falling asleep, my mind is flooded with images of the past. "Pictures" if you will, of where I used to live when I was younger. The "pictures" are of my street and neighborhood, of my best friend's house, etc. They are snapshots of a period in time. They are from when I was about 17 years old, up to my early twenties. I lived at home during those years, and also in the Assembly. I left the Assembly twice during the time I was there, returning home for short periods, before moving back into the brother's houses. I finally made the "break" on my third attempt---the "great escape" if you will. 

But I have wondered why my mind fills with these images--they seem to be "tied" somehow to what I am thinking about at the time. Often it is when I am thinking about my walk with the Lord. I can be  thinking on a scripture verse, and a "picture" of the cul-de-sac where I used to live will fill my mind. I have wondered what the "link" is that causes these memories to fill my mind. I mean this very seriously--it has troubled me quite a bit. The pictures are crystal clear--like photos that fill my thoughts.

Last night I was thinking about the discussion on this board. I thought about my discussion with Tom Maddux, and a recent e-mail I sent him about our discussions here. I began to wonder why all of this matters so much to me. Why do I continue to come to this board and post so frequently? I say it's because of my concern for others coming through the healing process, but is that really the complete truth? Or is there something "eating at me" that I can't seem to understand or grasp? I have to admit--there were a couple of "traumatic events" that happened to me in the Assembly--one in particular, that caused me to feel the Lord had shut the door on me for good. It seems like nothing when I relate that story, but when it happened to me it felt like the end of the world . I resigned to defeat so to speak, and "accepted" a teaching that has haunted me ever since. It's amazing how one life event can warp a person's psyche' so strongly!! At least in my case that is true. One day, one brother's house, one event, and years of torment as a result.

Even though I remained in the brother's house, I thought it was "impossible" that I would ever enter the Inheritance--I came to a place of truly believing this. Inwardly, I felt "useless" to God, but I decided I'd stay anyway---weird decision huh? If I couldn't make it into the Inheritance, at least I could help others get there. After I left the Assembly I named my first son Joshua with the same thought in mind--Joshua made it in the Old Testament, so if I couldn't make it into the Inheritance, at least he had a better chance! 

Despite my faith, expressions of confidence in the Lord, and attempts to "move on", I have dealt with this "problem" ever since. I seem to regress back to a belief in this fearful idea that the Lord has forsaken me, or has "shut the door on me" in cycles. I will attempt to "encourage myself in the Lord", but this belief still comes back at times. There is a deadness associated with this that is hard to describe. In 2002, with the demise of the Assembly, I was filled with joy, because I knew for sure that the system must be false. But despite this "awakening", I have still had to deal with this fear I cannot seem to shake. It is so deeply engrained in me that it is very difficult to bypass. It is an irrational fear I know, but it is there. I want to be completely honest about this--because it is an issue that has been at the forefront of my life ever since the disciplining I received in the Assembly many years ago. I do not "blame" individuals for this--people make mistakes, and all is forgiven. But I have to admit, something hurt me psychologically, that triggers deep fears in me, especially when speaking of entrance into Heaven, rewards, or eternal judgment. This comes in "cycles", though the majority of the time I know it is irrational and untrue.

What I realized last night is that I speak often of not trying to find any good in the Assembly. I say that we should be glad we escaped, and concentrate on what is "beyond" that past, sad experience. The "pictures" that flood my mind come from that time period. I may have moved "physically" beyond it, and grown far older in years, but internally I am still "living" back then---trying to deal with a fear that started at the same time. When I think of heaven, pictures of those streets at home flood my mind, because I would often walk them, crying out to God to please forgive me, and not "shut me out of His kingdom". It was torment and fear, and sadness, and hopelessness. In my mind I am still walking those streets I believe, because I have never fully dealt with that fear. This must be true. I cannot deny it.

I want to confess this, and apologize to Tom and everyone else. Tom's simple question brought out an outpouring from me against the thought that anything good could come out of such a horrible place. But it is all based on MY experience, and what I suffered there so many years ago. I have come to a very serious but real conclusion: I need to truly escape forever from that place, and truly move on for good. The only way to do that is to not post here any more , or visit this place, until I know I am truly beyond it all. I need to live in the here and now, until all of the memories make clear sense. I have to truly admit that I have been holding on to a period of time in my life--and an irrational fear that is associated with it.

**continued in post above.

[Joe Sperling]

***continued from below***

For me, letting go of this BB is like a baby letting go of a pacifier. (you know--you take the pacifier, you get a startled look from the baby first, then a red face filling with a frown, and then a piercing scream, coupled with two little shaking baby fists  ).  But I believe the Lord is telling me to do so. It's time to move on. I need to leave the past behind, and look to the future. The Lord has great plans for me! He has great plans for my life and ultimately for his glory!!  I don't mean to be melodramatic here--just wanted to explain why I am leaving the board. In my case, I think to move ahead I need to leave a few things behind. I've needed to do this for some time now.

I do have to add one last thing. It is more than coincidence, and really, a miracle of the Lord, that this board came about, and Tom Maddux, Al Hartman, and Mark Campbell all started posting here. I lived with all three of them in different "brother's houses" during my Assembly years. The odds of having bumped into them in life were near to impossible, as Al lives in Ohio, and Tom and Mark live in other areas of California. I  thought I would never have the opportunity to speak with them again. The advent of this BB allowed all of us to get in contact once again, and I am extremely grateful to the Lord for this. Many of the Valley saints have never even come to the board to post, so having these three all here at one time was an amazing event! Despite the conflicts at times, though most of the time we have been pretty much in harmony, I love all three of them very much in the Lord, and only wish them the very best!  Knowing myself as I do, I'm sure I'll check in to read a little, but I will no longer be posting or spending much time here.

If anyone wants to contact me in the future, I will be checking into the Psych ward at Bellvue Hospital, in Arcadia, California. I am due for shock therapy later this afternoon.  Or, you can e-mail me at jsperling@fralock.com          God bless everyone.

[Margaret]

Wow, Joe. I had no idea....you have been such a blessing on this board. But I understand that a time comes when you have to leave it alone for awhile. We'll miss your sense of humor. I do hope you will continue to write your devotional thoughts at least, and send them to be posted on the blog. People are blessed by your writing.

Margaret

[brian]

I have been absent from the BB due to being evacuated from my house here in the San Diego area since Monday.  All is well, though the fire came very close.

just wanted to interject: I'm glad to hear you were spared! it looked like a warzone down there: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&ie=UTF8&om=1&msa=0&msid=114250687465160386813.00043d08ac31fe3357571&ll=33.082337,-116.658325&spn=0.968839,1.826477&t=k&z=9

[Mark C.]

Thanks Brian!

Yes, we were spared, but the fire came within a mile of the house!  To find the area I live in click on "The Rice Fire" on your linked map and see the big cluster of burned houses-- we are just on the western edge of that big cluster of burned homes!  The intensity of the fire was truly amazing as parked cars had all their glass melted, tries burned off, etc.!  Structures were totally consumed! An entire trailer park was reduced to total rubble! 

Dave: I saw the "Samaritan Purse" semi parked down the street from me.  Can I help your people out as they minister here? Great opportunity to show the love of God to folks reeling from their losses. 

Thanks again to all who expressed their concern for me and other former members who live in this area.  I know that there are at least a few who have posted here who live in SD County.

                                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.