When is the last time you talked to someone?

[Virgil]

  Have you tried talking to someone or visited "The Assembly" recently? You maybe surprised to find out the beliefs are no longer anything near what they use to be. You maybe surprised to find Christians who simply believe and worship the Lord just the same as you. Call someone you know or visit a meeting and see for yourself! 

                     In His Service! 

[Margaret]

Wow! Do you think they would let me visit? Which So. Cal. Assembly would you suggest?

[JMarden]

  Have you tried talking to someone or visited "The Assembly" recently? You maybe surprised to find out the beliefs are no longer anything near what they use to be. You maybe surprised to find Christians who simply believe and worship the Lord just the same as you. Call someone you know or visit a meeting and see for yourself! 

                     In His Service! 

Virgil,

Thank you for the Invitation. No I can say I have tried to talk to anyone or visit any assemblies. Perhaps since I am from the midwest you could point me to a couple existing assemblies in Illinois. Just wondering, If I ran into so and so in the Forest Park(for example) gathering would I be ignored or received as a fellow believer in my Saviour as I was while in fellowship and even after the Lord led me to move on. Would those fellow laborers and freinds who I labored with for a decade and a half  receive me as the Lord would?.

There is joy in serving Jesus.

Jay

[Mark C.]

Hi Virgil!

  The last time I talked to a current Assembly member It was a bro. who tried to openly question the leadership of the Valley group re. Fullerton's excommunication of GG.  These leaders were not open to questions and accused this concerned member of being "a divisive man."  It was these leaders view that any criticism of the part they played as GG's agents while leading the group was "against God."

  Going to a present meeting and just sitting down and keeping quiet wouldn't tell you what was really going on there.  One would have to be able to talk to the leadership and hear their views, and also the visitor would need to be able to ask questions that they felt were important--- just like you would expect from any honest church group.

  But the Assembly isn't "just like any other honest church group" because they have a past, and it is a past many of us have been deeply injured by.  If those still meeting, who were trained by GG, are unwilling to face up to that past they still have issues between other Christian brethren that Christ commands them to settle first before they head into their worship meetings--- "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar.  First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."  (MT 5:23)

  What I'm getting at Virgil is that there is a need for reconciliation before we can just start heading back to these groups, as they most likely are not going to want us to visit and bring up all these unresolved issues between us in their meetings.  Those still in existing groups have had many opportunities to come here and open a dialogue toward that reconciliation, but they have not chosen to do so.

  I would say the ball is in their court and that I would very much welcome such a discussion that could provide an opportunity for a lot of healing---- on both sides.

                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.   

[brian]

i talk to my parents all the time. things have changed dramatically in their meetings, with an emphasis on being open and reasonable in all their decisions. for instance, what meetings to have and when to have them is decided in an open discussion with the whole group, women included. there are fewer and shorter meetings, conveniently scheduled throughout the week. people who choose not to attend a particular meeting or choose to attend a different church are still considered friends (and family!), as opposed to the shunning that used to be the norm. as far as i can tell, everyone who attends is there because they genuinely enjoy the non-traditional format. noone would want anyone to be there who wasn't happy to be there. when i walk in on a meeting that just ended, i get warmly greeted by old friends. there is nothing controlling or cultish about it, as far as i can tell.

i don't know anything about what is happening in other former assemblies. the ones in southern california sounded much less healthy.

given the wide variety of changes each individual assembly has gone through, your plug might be helpful if it was more specific. i don't know of any former or current assemblies in colorado.

[JMarden]

Thanks for the update Brian

[just me]

Well we are supposed to attend an assembly wedding this year and were told that we have to have a chat with the groom first.  He wants to make sure that we don't disrupt the meeting by getting into large discussions with people.  Sounds like the same old same old to me.  We are not welcome to come until we've been screened, interviewed and approved for attendance.  We never gave any indication that we would come to disrupt things.  We have been at peace with this person for a number of years now -- having gotten over our reaction to all the assembly garbage a while ago.  He, however, has remained very remote and combative.  This is a so. cal assembly and seems to operate with the same rules with perhaps fewer meetings.

[Nancy Newswander]

It's interesting to me that this thread is called grace and truth, because even though the assemblies are more accommodating towards schedules and people, the old thinking still exists. 

In what limited (on purpose) interactions that I have with people still involved in the old assemblies, I am convinced that there is a very little correct understanding of what the grace of God truly is.  This is still a performance driven organization that has been based on doctrine that misses the mark. 

There are a ton of healthy, thriving gatherings of believers out there.  I would counsel anyone to seek other options rather than attending any of the old assemblies.

Just my two cents.

[Flora]

Wise advice, Nancy!!

Changes? What changes? Please be specific.

Here is where I'm coming from. I lean towards the Open Plymouth Brethren in my doctrinal beliefs. However, I have a brother that is Baptist and works for a missionary organization. Another brother is a pastor in a Christian Alliance church, and a third brother is in extreme Pentecostalism. Yet doctrine issues don't divide us. We can have sweet fellowship together, pray together and support each other. If I am in some health crisis, I have confidence my brothers are praying for me.

So having heard of these so called changes that were happening in the Ottawa Assembly, in early October 2007, I contacted one of the leading brothers there, with the hope of trying to restore fellowship. First, I phoned to get his e-mail address, which he gave me. We talked for a bit, but he seemed uncomfortable and awkward, not sure what to say to me. (It had been 14 1/2 years since I had any contact with him.)

Then I sent an e-mail expressing a deep desire for restored fellowship. Here is an excerpt of my e-mail:

"...it was great to talk to you on the phone today and to hear your voices. I have missed you. It has been 14 ½ years since we have enjoyed sweet fellowship together. Why? When I left the Ottawa assembly I wrote you all a letter, inviting you to visit, write or phone me. I wanted to stay in touch with you, because you were my friends and I love you all.

Yet you have refused to have anything to do with me. Once again, I ask “Why?” What was my sin? Was my sin the fact that I left? ... Since God’s ways are always towards reconciliation, what steps were taken to bring about reconciliation? ...

...After you have read my story, I would very much appreciate hearing back from you through e-mail or phone. ..."  (I included a link to my story on the Assembly Reflections web site.)

That phone call and e-mail was in early October 2007. I have had no response from this leading brother.

My own conclusion is that although the length of meetings and number of meetings may have changed, there is no real fundamental change. I would love it if someone could prove me wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

Flora

[Virgil]

Recently I read this on a tract:

            Two former P.O.W.'s were talking one evening. One asked the other, "Have you forgiven your captors yet?" "No" replied the other, "I will never forgive them!"  At this the friend said, "They still have you a prisoner don't they!."


   It really helped me put the past behind and just befriend go and talk with my old friends!  Perhaps it will help some of you???

             In His Service

[Flora]

Virgil,

I can't speak for others, but for myself, I can say: "I HAVE forgiven them! I hold no grudges against any of them. Consequently, I am not a prisoner to those old hurts and experiences. I committed everything into God's hands years ago, because God witnessed every word and deed that occurred. I have experienced freedom from bitterness, anger and hate. Bitterness only corrodes the soul. However, God removed my bitterness and gave me a love for them."

It would give me great joy to have fellowship restored. However, for this to happen there must be an acknowledgement of the facts and a willingness for reconciliation. This attitude MUST exist on the part of BOTH parties.

If they are not willing for reconciliation, then there is nothing I can do but pray and continue to leave it in God's hands.

Maybe it would be a wise move for you to exhort them on humility, apology and reconciliation. It may take two to tangle, but it also takes two to reconcile.

By the way, I DID put the past behind me 14 years ago, and got on with my life.

Flora

[outdeep]

Forgiveness and reconciliation is not the same thing.  Hopefully family of victims of Charles Manson have forgiven him (or at least accepted what happened) and moved on but that doesn't mean they hang out with him in jail. 

Read the book The Sunflower written/compiled by a Jewish prisoner in a Nazi camp and realize that the question is not so simple.  Think of anyone giving a blanket forgiveness to Al Kedah for bombing the trade center.  Wouldn't that be a kind of slap in the face for those who truly suffered?

In the case of the Assembly, I believe there are at least two types of people who are still "in".

One type of person is someone who honestly believes the forms of the Assembly (worship, head covering, chapter summary, open ministry, etc.) are a true expression of the church.  They probably weren't so much into the control/exclusiveness aspect of the Assembly and are rather relieved when the Assembly fell so that they could conduct themselves in the pattern they believe in without the dysfunctional elements.  These folks are probably more open to having fellowship with former members on the outside and parting ways with the dysfunctional elements of control, exclusiveness, mom-and-pop-leadership, non-accountibility, Gods annointed servant, etc.

The other type of person is the one who believes there was never anything fundamentally wrong with the Assembly except for the fact that George screwed up.  These are those who are unable or unwilling to be honest with themselves and admit that they have truly hurt people and that they are truly clinging to a corrupt form of power.  These are the ones who will maintain an attitude of suspicion and control towards outsiders.

The stories listed below are all anecdotal.  Some relate to folks in group one and say, "Hey, the Assemblies are all OK now."  Others run into folks in group two and say, "no, nothing has really changed."

So if you run into folks from the Assembly who are friendly and are not trying to justify or soft-soap the wrongs, by all means go out for coffee with them and have a good time.  But I suspect that there are others that any type of "fellowship" is going to have to be on their terms in the fantasy world of God's true testimony in the world today where anyone expressing criticism is the enemy.

[Explorer]

Here is my two cents.

Each of the assemblies is different in regard to changes. Some have not changed at all and remain the same, completely inflexible. A lot of it has to do with the pride of the particular leader and an unwillingness to let go of the iron fisted control that they have exercised for so long. These are generally small assemblies that started small and will remain small, for obvious reasons.

There are other assemblies that are not as extreme that have experienced in varying degrees some change. But generally the change has to do with the number of meetings and length of the meetings. Some will even invite you and welcome you with open, loving arms in an attempt to prove that they have "really changed". There are others that may have changed to some degree but will still screen you, not really accept you and to varying degrees still carry that kind of baggage. However, I don't think there are any assemblies remaining that have changed even to the degree that they think they have. They still think that this is the way to "do it" and the basic foundations for the meetings are still the same. I did speak to a member of one of the "assembly lite" groups recently, and that was basically what he told me. They were "standing for what God wants". Hogwash.

A lot of this attitude is leftovers from the Plymouth Brethren type of teaching which unfortunately was the basis for many (not all) of the problems that we had. Which is why in my opinion, just trying to reform things is probably impossible. That's why the scripture says that a new wine skin is necessary.

Another comment to the poster who said they were being screened to a wedding they were planning to attend: Why bother attending? I would think that would be an experience you would be better off sparing yourself from. If no one really wants you there, why attend?

[just me]

Because, Explorer, it's family.  And despite what the assembly discourages and teaches, we feel that family is important and we want to express that we care for this individual no matter what -- in hopes that some day we can help them get out and be recovered as other family members did for us.

[Marcia M]

We just passed the 5th anniversary of George's excommunication.  That is approx. 1/4th of the years I gave to the assembly.  My, how time flies. 

IMO each one s/b able to discern their connections with existing assemblies, because each situation is different.  Virgil's suggestion that we all go and re-connect is unnecessary.  It would have been more appropriate for him/her to simply relate his/her story of re-connecting.

I'm curious though re. Virgil's comment

You maybe surprised to find out the beliefs are no longer anything near what they use to be. You maybe surprised to find Christians who simply believe and worship the Lord just the same as you.

  Assembly folk were unwilling to discuss anything "negative" so I'm not sure how this change came about.

Marcia