Durkheim's Rules of Sociological Method

[Mark C.]

"Tom is an intellectual"  Tom leaped from defining current trends in physics as an illustration for sociology into...

 All this consciousness stuff is nothing more than our feelings tricking us into thinking that we can avoid all the hard work of thinking things through 
                                                          Quote from Marc,





  Yes (I agree with the "thinking" part, but not sure "feelings" holds as much weight)  and I think this article forcess everyone to take a long hard look at themselves. It forces you to ask the questions, Why do I think, behave, live the way I do? Why did I think God was speaking to me in the Assembly? It also brings up a number of other issues!  But I will leave that alone for now.

             

 Okay Vandyyke, (however when using this name I somehow picture you with an antiquated growth of facial hair)

    Re. Tom as an "intellectual":  When I use this word I did not mean to suggest that all he has ever said was correct or superior, just that he converses using the skills of someone trained in well reasoned argument.  These skills can be used by someone who is wrong or right, and by themselves are only tools---- not proof that their views are necessarily the best.  Though, I think he is correct in what he is saying here.

   The study you want us to comment on is interesting, and yes every former member would be well served to consider how much of their Assm. experience was really from God vs. one kind of deceptive experience or another.  I think my point (as well as Tom's) here is that "social consciousness" is not the only influence we need to consider.

  When I was saved I was not in a group (I was living the life of a hermit)--- and I know for a fact that most of those who made up the group were saved prior to coming in.  The belief in the bible being God's word and the resulting emotional reactions due to this conviction were already fixed in my life.  I, and many others, were not victims of some kind of "social consciousness" influences that led to our faith in Christ.

  Deceptive religious influences, of the kind that can effect believers, are a constant biblical warning.  I say this to make the point that we must understand the differences between true communications from God vs. pseudo ones.  There are former members who are threatened by any suggestion that we must make critical judgments re. the nature of our Christian experiences in the Assm.

  God's intention is to develop us as individuals with the maturity to make up our own minds apart from the pressures of conformity to a group conviction.  If we have failed to do so in the past it is time to grow in our faith to the point where we discover the dignity God has gifted us with and the inalienable privileges that go along with that.  A true expression of NT church life is not a group consciousness but individually enlightened minds and hearts exercising their respective abilities.

                                                                             God Bless,  Mark C.   

[amycahill]

Marc, I understand what you are saying and I understand why but I was hoping to discuss the topic of collective consciouness. Don't you think this deserves investigation?

Yes.  I absolutely believe it does.

Groups like the Assembly are so astoundingly successful because they take our natural, human need for community and turn that against us to manipulate us into doing as they wish.  It's a horrible perversion, but extremely effective as we have all seen.

When the young man asked Jesus what he had to do to be saved, Jesus asked him what the greatest commandment was (pardon me if I'm mixing my Bible references here).  The young man replied, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." (establishing the primacy of relationship with God).  Jesus congratulated him, then added, "Love your neighbor as yourself."  Well, that isn't an optional command.  To have a full-fledged relationship with God involves loving people too.  We weren't just made for God -- we were also made for each other.  It's a fact.

And it's a fact many unscrupulous leaders have used against the people they wished to lead throughout history.  Including George Geftakys.

[amycahill]

I concluded from this that when people get into group settings and receive certain types of stimuli, such as the affirmation of deeply held beliefs and attitudes, loud rythmic music, especially drum beats, singing or chants in unison, calling out the same response again and again it sets off a physiological reaction in our endocrine systems.  Adreniline starts flowing, the heart rate increases, and if we "give" ourselves to the emotions of the occasion while we produce brain chemicles such as serotonin.  These chemicals produce a sense of euphoria and connectedness with "something greater than ourselves".  In a church meeting, folks seek to "feel the presence of the Holy Spirit".  In political meetings, they want to attain a sense of high purpose and connectedness with a great cause. In a rock concert they just want to "feel the music" and enjoy the "good vibrations".

What a cool post, Tom!  I think these were excellent observations on "how" this works.  I learned something -- thank you!

[amycahill]

For many years I struggled to stay in the Assembly. My struggles went like this. I enjoyed the worship! I enjoyed the ministry. At times I felt great coviction that God was speaking to me. I had numerous experiences that seem to confirm this. Ministry would speak directly to my heart about the exact same issues I happend to be facing.  And yet when I was alone I would begin to doubt the legitimacy of George, the oraganization, the polity. How could I reconcile the two? How could God be so real in one circumstance and yet obscure in another?

It really IS amazing that God managed to get anything done whatsoever in that dungheap, now isn't it?   

[amycahill]

Dave, I understand you to be saying, God made us a certain way and we are left (with the tools He has given us) to discern what really is of him and what is men. O.K. I can understand you. But it doesn't make sense to me that God would allow such sincere devoted disciples to be so cruely treated.  O.k. we have been here before.  Guys I really need help with Ch IV!  Which is why I should stay away for awhile!

I learned something recently.  I learned that "suffering for doing what is right" (not "suffering for doing something wrong or stupid," mind you) is more properly known as "persecution" and what that actually makes you is "Christ-like."

Jesus was tortured to death on a cross.  Saul threw rocks at Sebastian (?) I think, until he died.  Peter was crucified upside down.  Paul was beheaded.  And so forth.

I think that answers your question about God allowing His disciples to be cruelly treated.  We are made not for this life, but the next.  That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to be happy in this life, to take care of ourselves and our bodies and our loved ones, but that we are going towards a higher purpose.  Everybody suffers in this life, believers and unbelievers alike.  What God did for us is to give that suffering meaning.