Mormon Women on Larry King

[Vandyyke]

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080408-ap-cult-raid.html

If you are following the news about the compound raid inTexas then you may have seen the interview with the mothers on Larry King last night. They agreed to participate in the interview in hopes of gettingtheir children back but I think it did more to hurt their chances. The women from the compound are freeky! They are totally brainwashed. They all had this blank stare.

[Oscar]

VanDave,

I did not see them on the Larry King show.  However, I did see them on another program yesterday. 

My reaction to what I observed was a combination of feeling horrified, angry, and sad.  This cult has existed for over a century. I learned from the web that many of these women could not spell their "husband's" name!  The "wives" of each individual family wear the same color of dresses, so when you see a group on the news you can see that some of these guys have half a dozen or so.

They do not seem to understand the outside world at all.  This is a prime example of what mind control can accomplish when used on successive generations.  They seem to be terrified, and answering even the most simple questions is difficult for them.

I gather that the state of Texas is building a case for rape, lewd conduct with a minor, and child abuse charges to be filed against the "men" involved in this little corner of hell.

I once read a report on the children that survived David Koresch's disaster a few years back.  They made rapid changes as they were progressively exposed to new ideas and the real world.  I hope these kids can as well.  Sadly, in many of these cases the girls go back as soon as they turn 18.  It is the life they know.

Tom Maddux

[Vandyyke]

    The "no make-up" seemed to enhance the blank stare look. It is like they were "Bred" to have sex and wash the dishes. Kinda like being married to zombies. O.K. I'll quit. Yes it is very very sad!  All in the name of Jesus Christ. What would he say about it on Larry King?

[Flora]

Is the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the same as the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

I find the different branches of this cult difficult to distinguish. My next door neighbour for the last 12 years is a lay preacher in the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He is adamant that he is not a Mormon. He protrays himself as belonging to another Christian denomination. In our tiny village community, he is viewed locally as a 'good Christian' and is frequently asked to preach at the local United Church. However, he also drives to Ottawa and preaches at the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Over the last 12 years, I have had a great many long discussions with him. I told him plainly that I believed he was involved in a cult, and my reasons why. It upsets him greatly that I do not view him as a Christian.

By the way, a number of years ago, I did ask my neighbour about the teaching of polygamy. All he would say was that "it was against the law". Then, he changed the subject.

I found a book written by the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stating their beliefs. Since that book is now in storage, I can only go by my memory. I understand that the distinguishing belief between the Reformed Church and the more common Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) is that the Reformers believe the that the Mormons have departed from the true teachings of Joseph Smith. The Reformers have returned to the original teachings of Joseph Smith.

With this recent news item in Texas, I tried to learn about the distinguishing belief of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So far the only thing I have discovered is that they also have returned to the original teachings of Joseph Smith. So it makes me wonder, if the two groups are really the same group under a different name.

Can anyone shine some light on this for me?

Thanks,

Flora

[Margaret]

Flora, this article - http://www.watchman.org/profile/rldspro.htm - seems to indicate that Reformed LDS would not the same as the Fundamentalist LDS.

[Oscar]

Flora,

The Reformed LDS group was formed by family members of Joseph Smith when he was killed.  Most folks were following Brigham Young's leadership, but Joseph's first wife and her family wanted to be the leaders, so there was a split.

The Fundamentaist C of JC of the LDS, as I understand it, were originally a group of Mormons who split of from the regular LDS church because they refused to give up polygamy.  It was origiinally preached by JS as a requirement for godhood.  However, they were willing to change their doctrine so that Utah could become a state.  That was the deal.  This crowd simply refused to change, and continued the practice in remote areas.  I do not know if their other teachings have changed or not.

I have learned a few more things about the group since my last post:

1. Some of the girls rounded up were pregnant 13-14 year-olds.  Others who were older had children of ages that show that they were pregnant at 13 as well.

2. There is a large group of young men who are known by the media as the "lost boys".  They were expelled from the group at 13-16 for not conforming.  The leadership has a good reason to expel them.  That leaves more girls for them to share around!   

3. When a man who already has wives is expelled, they only expell the individual.  His wives are then "reassigned" to other men.

4. I saw Rick Ross on TV.  He said that when people leave other cults they usually have friends or family outside the cult that help them re-connect with the real world.  Because this cult is a century old the members normally have absolutely no connections outside the group.  This will make it extremly difficult for them to begin new lives.  Many will probably retuirn as soon as they can.

Horrible.


Tom Maddux

[Vandyyke]

  A woman at Ave 54 Bible Chapel grew up in the "Reformed LDS Church" she is very adimit about her salvation within that organization.  Quote, "I was saved through faith by grace...."

[Flora]

Thanks, everyone. Your posts have helped.

Margaret, the link you provided really helped me differentiate between the two groups. Also, I found the little book I referred to that is written by the RLDS. It is called: "The Truth and The Evidence", and it shows the difference between the RLDS and the LDS. My understanding now is that the different branches come from who they recognize as the current head of their church. They believe that their Prophet / President has the authority to receive revelations and visions from God that supercede all previous visions and revelations. These visions and revelations are to be believed and followed in the same way Moses was to be believed and followed.

Tom, the RLDS reject the teaching of polygamy, because that teaching came from Brigham Young, a leader that they don't recognize as being appointed by God. I agree with you on the horrific implications of this bazaar teaching by the Fundamentalist sect.

Yes, Vandyyke, the gospel is preached clear and plain. My neighbour can share a very clear gospel better than many evangelical Christians. He is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith; that salvation comes through Jesus work on the cross to save us from our sin; that there is no other way to get to the Father, except through the finished work of Christ on the cross, etc.

However, they also believe that the Bible is not the final authority. If their Prophet / President has a revelation or vision from God, then they can revise the Bible or add to it. They have their own Bible called the Inspired Version.

In their little book, "The Truth and The Evidence", they show two columns. In the first column are passages from the King James Version and in the second column are the same passages from their Inspired Version. As you compare the two columns, only one or two words are changed. However, those one or two words change the whole meaning of the passage. They explain that these revisions were made to the Bible as a direct result of a revelation that God gave to Joseph Smith.

My neighbour has stated many times that if someone claims God gave them a vision or a revelation, he would probably believe them. He stated he would definitely believe it, if the Prophet / President claimed that he had a vision or revelation from God.

Once again, we have another example of the truth mixed with error.

Flora

[Oscar]

Flora,

You said:

Tom, the RLDS reject the teaching of polygamy, because that teaching came from Brigham Young, a leader that they don't recognize as being appointed by God. I agree with you on the horrific implications of this bazaar teaching by the Fundamentalist sect.

Good to hear that the RLDS reject polygamy.  However, when I spoke of polygamy I was talking about the Fundamentalist group that got raided by the state of Texas recently.

I don't know what your neighbor has told you, Flora, but Brigham Young did not begin the practice of polygamy among the Mormons.  As early as the 1830's Joseph Smith claimed that he received a revelation that they must do this.  Brigham Young is reported to have resisted the idea until JS told him he had to do it.

Polygamy was one of the reasons that the Mormons began to migrate westward from New York during the lifetime of JS.  In a day when folks were prone to handle their own problems regarding their daughters the Mormons were coming under increasing pressure because they were accepting under-age converts and marrying them off to Mormon men.  It is also a big part of the reason why they had problems in Kirtland Ohio, Springfield Missouri, and Nauvoo Illinois.

Tom Maddux

[Flora]

Tom,  it appears that the origin of the polygamy teaching is a controversy among the different branches of this group.  It seems that each subgroup distorts the history to their advantage.

I did not receive the information about Brigham Young from my neighbour.  I took it directly from their book, The Truth and the Evidence.  This book is endorsed by the RLDS Council of Twelve Apostles.  Chapter four of this book is called Marriage.  Under the subheading,The Utah Church and Polygamy, it states:

"The practice of polygamy or "plural marriage" is the point in question.  Under the leadership of Brigham Young, "plural marriage" was introduced to the Utah church as a doctrine necessary for salvation.  Though some of its leaders at that time were already practicing this doctrine, it was presented publicly for the first time on August 29, 1852, by Orson Pratt and Brigham Young in the tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Utah.

To lend support to this new doctrine, a purported revelation, which became Section 132 of the Utah Doctrine and Covenants, was read to the assembly following presentations by Orson Pratt and Brigham Young.  This so-called revelation was prefaced with the statement: 'Given to Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, July 12th, 1843,' although Brigham Young stated in his presentation that the original copy had been destroyed.  The document was neither an original nor a signed document.  Thus the name of Joseph Smith, who had been dead eight years, was used to give prestige to a doctrine which was wholly contrary to the teachings and instructions previously given to the church under his leadership."

This argument continues for another full fifteen pages.  Those involved in these groups will probably always argue over the subject of authoritative leadership and its history.  As my husband says "Paper won't refuse ink."

I am sure your source of information is not biased by the perspective of those under the Mormom umbrella. Thanks for your input and perspective.

Lord bless,

Flora

[Oscar]

Flora,

I am the on-line instructor for a class called World Religions and Science through Hope International University, formerly PCC.  In the class we survey the major world religions, then we discuss the relationship between their truth claims and scientific evidence.  In that part of the course we use New Age religions and Mormonism as our test cases. 

Needless to say, Mormonism has the greatest problem with scientific investigation.  The DNA evidence of recent years has been devasting to their claim that the American Indians are Israelites.  Their DNA is completely asian.

Anyhow...I try to expand my familiarity with these religions by reading about them.  I recently read a biography of Joseph Smith by a non-Mormon.  That is the source of what I said about the origins of polygamy among the LDS.  If he got it wrong, I got it wrong.  However, he seemed to have done his research, so I have a reasonable level of confidence in his claims.  It was not a "hit" book by a combative Evangelical who is crusading against this cult.

BTW, for those interested, here is a link to a 40 minute video by a woman who escaped from the group that we have been discussing.  A word of caution...you will see many common elements in her experience and ours.  Her experiences, however, were far more extreme.

Here is the link:  http://www.apologeticsindex.org/

Blessings,

Tom Maddux