Rape

[moonflower2]

O.K. Marc,

   But the direction I was going had more to do with the fact that George Geftakys and The Assembly are not as unique as some people would like to believe!


   Now think about it. How many times in our (American Culture) history has "The Fallen Minister" appeared? It happens all the time!  It is just a given! Minister has a great testimony, is well respected in society, etc.. then it happens. "Oh Mabel, Did you hear about....."  "No!" "I can't believe it!"   

   Its like we continually set ourselves up for disappointment. We should know by now that no one is infallible! Yet we want our graven image, we want our hero, someone we can look to for guidance and inspiration. But it always comes back to reality. And we do it all over again. Why can't we just grow up and live independently from "Spirtual Leaders!"?

Vandyyke,
I'm reacting to what you said here and would like to interject my two cents, although you have directed this to Mark.

There was more going on in GG's groups than just the "fallen minister" syndrome who fell prey to sexual sin. I believe he was on the borderline of sanity/insanity (and I'm not giving him excuse for anything he has done) because of how he justified his escapades to himself, his victims, and his ministry. (see how GG related his illicit relationship, to his ministry of the "significant other" on GA.com)

The evil he perpetuated went beyond sexual escapades as you can see from the stories related on this bulletin board and GA.com.

His sexual fantasies and escapades were only the icing on his cake of insanity and evil.

There are/were other abberant religious groups, and other "fallen ministers", but to limit GG's affect to only a "fallen minister" is to give him credit for even being a true minister, which he was/is not.

Do we need to place our allegience in God and not man? Definitely! But we can also expect that a leader is an example and will repent when confronted with sin. There is such a thing and there are such churches that still excommunicate according to scriptures.
 
Moonflower

[Mark C.]

O.K. Marc,

   But the direction I was going had more to do with the fact that George Geftakys and The Assembly are not as unique as some people would like to believe!


 

  The uniqueness of GG and the Assm. is not found in the fact that it's leader failed due to sexual sin, but in the cultic type organization that denied the facts and tried to turn the tables on those pointing it out.  Yes, many church organizations (like any organization) tend to be defensive and take a circle-the-wagons approach when challenged.  One of the advantages former members of a group like ours have is having the ability to see the evil in cover-up and the need to hold our church leaders accountable.  The difference is not that there is moral failure, but are these failures being owned and repented of.

  "Why do we need leaders"?  I think many of us struggle with the idea of following some individual/s because we have become jaded in our views re. "authority" figures.  As I have learned what the NT talks about in re. to "spiritual authority" I have become less cynical.  The whole concept of "submission," as taught by groups like the Assm. are exactly opposite to what the bible says.  We are to follow "examples" of good teaching and living vs. submitting to someone who claims some kind of spiritual ranking higher than us.

  BTW, your dark and disturbing story re. the incestuous father whose house you visited:  Did you ever try to report this man?  I don't know how long ago this happened, but the damage that has been done to this poor child needs to be addressed and this man at the very least needs to be stopped!  I can't think of a worse evil than incest and when coming from a man claiming to be a Christian?!!

                                                                                            God Bless,  Mark C.      

[Vandyyke]

   
     

No, I didn't even remember it until last year.(I blanked it out! Yes, even with all my experience I still blanked it out! It was something I just couldn't, didn't want to deal with.) The daughter must be 20 now! I haven't talked to my friend in 3 years time but I will try to get a hold of him.

[Oscar]

VanDave,

Several days ago you said this:

George's attitude about rape reflects what was considered once as normative in western society. (It is still considered normal amongst the good ol boys)

When most folks talk about "good ol boys" they are speaking of rural folks who like to drink beer, drive pickup trucks and such.


How did you ever get the idea that raping women is ok in these circles?  In my growing up years I had many relatives who would fall  into this general group.  I still do have some cousins one could call "good ol boys" down in West Texas.

I think one could make a better argument that raping a woman in these circles could get a man killed!

Tom Maddux

[moonflower2]

VanDave,

Several days ago you said this:
When most folks talk about "good ol boys" they are speaking of rural folks who like to drink beer, drive pickup trucks and such.


How did you ever get the idea that raping women is ok in these circles?  In my growing up years I had many relatives who would fall  into this general group.  I still do have some cousins one could call "good ol boys" down in West Texas.

I think one could make a better argument that raping a woman in these circles could get a man killed!

Tom Maddux

Yeah, the "good ol boys" live(d) in the Chicago suburbs, too.

In high school, I had been asked to get my own ride home from where I had been waitressing. The only ride I could get was from 2 cooks, who drove me to an open field where they discussed, over my head - because I had no clue what was going on - where I lived, how much money my dad made, if I had been with a man, or had a boyfriend, neither of which were true in my case.

The "smart" one decided against it, even tho the impatient one said they could take me to such and such a place where no one would find me.

The next time I saw them at work, the "smart" one told me that I had been lucky to have gotten home, that they hadn't planned on bringing me home and that I never would have gotton home, ever.

Another waitress had come up missing who had last been seen by these 2, who had admitted to giving her a ride home. She eventually did show up, but I don't know anything more than that. I was quite naive at the time and still did not connect this with the 2 cooks.

It wasn't until the Natalie Holloway case came out that I remembered what had happened to me and realized how protected I had been at the time. (I also later found out that the 2 cooks had "done things" to other women and were not "nice guys".)
Needless to say, I have very little respect for Joran Van Der Shit, I mean, Sloot. (And my mother would not have gone cross-country/continent to declare to the world my innocence. Nuf said. (even after her own attempted rape episode)

[Oscar]

Moon,

I'm sorry that you had such an experience.  Evil is present everywhere, no doubt about that. This sort of thing has reached out and touched my own family.

Seems to me that you and VanDave are using the term "good ol boy" in different sense from me.  The scum that you had fallen in with at work were hardly "good" ol boys.  That such people exist is undeniable.

However, the general culture of rural America can hardly be said to tolerate the rape and abuse of women.

Tom Maddux

[outdeep]

From

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ol'_boy

"Good ol' boy is a slang term used, either to self-identify as or to refer to a male, usually white and of Northern/Western-European descent, who lives in a rural area and/or subscribes to a traditionally "rural" lifestyle. The term is generally thought to originate in the rural areas of the southern and southwestern U.S. While other terms such as redneck, hick, yokel, "Bubba", and "white trash" are also applied, though usually pejoratively and are often interchanged with "good ol' boy," the "good ol' boy" is more of an idealized image of rural Americans, Canadians and Australians."

It has later been picked up some in urban/gang settings but generally refers to rual Southern culture - the type that was outraged when Obama made his infamous "their frustrations leads them to turn to God and guns" comment to an educated, elitist crowd.

It was referenced in the movie Blues Brother (name of country band name the Blues Brothers met in a bar) and the song "Bye, Bye, Miss American Pie".

[Vandyyke]

  I took it from Margaret, no I didn't mean the "good" kind of "good ol boys" I meant the "bad" kind of "good ol boys". Good enough?

  Moon, I am glad you didn't get raped! The same thing happened to my mother, when she told them she was going to "fight" they backed off. They figured that if she didn't fight then it wasn't rape! However I am glad you supported my point. This kind of thing is a lot more prevalent then people want to admit.

[moonflower2]

  I took it from Margaret, no I didn't mean the "good" kind of "good ol boys" I meant the "bad" kind of "good ol boys". Good enough?

  Moon, I am glad you didn't get raped! The same thing happened to my mother, when she told them she was going to "fight" they backed off. They figured that if she didn't fight then it wasn't rape! However I am glad you supported my point. This kind of thing is a lot more prevalent then people want to admit.

There is no way I'd have gotten out of that situation with my life, no matter what I had said or done. It was the uncharacteristic decision of the driver to drive me home. When he asked me if I wanted to go home, I of course said yes, and that was it.

I know you didn't mean "good" in your phrase "good ol boys", but that you meant rural boys (with a pick-up truck, flicking cigarettes out of the window and wearing white t-shirts with the sleeves rolled up. 

These two were suburban city boys.

[Vandyyke]

   I guess what I meant was all inclusive trash. The "good" thing about some trash is you can look at it and see that it is trash. Yet the "nice" man at church in a three piece suit is the worst kind of trash. He's the guy who gives everyone the impression of decency, integrity, all around good guy. Yet, when the George Vanershet has some poor victim cornered then the real trash comes out. 

[Flora]

I'd like to interject my two cents.

The definition of a "sinner" is someone who sins. Welcome to the human race! We never stop being sinners. We are only sinners saved by grace, which demonstrates God's infinite mercy.

Vandyyke, I know exactly where you are coming from. I've been there. Prior to my getting involved in the Geftakys organization, I was at a major crossroads in my Christian life. Since my Dad was an elder, and highly respected in the local community and local Christian community, and since my parents were well known for their hospitality, we often had local Christians of various denominations in our home. I overheard many discussions of problems in all the local churches. Everthing from your typical adultery story and other sexual sins, to a preacher's son high on street dope teaching Sunday School, to the treasurer embezzling funds, to senior pastors abusing junior pastors, to the youth leader repeatedly physically and violently abusing his son, etc. The list seems endless.

This is why I was attracted to George's teaching of holiness in the leadership. When I started experiencing the abusive nature of this organization, I came to another crossroads. I almost left the Lord for good. I threw my Bible to the other side of the bed and said: "If this is Christianity, shove it! I want nothing to do with it." I went three weeks when I could not read my Bible and I could not pray.

Then, God in His great love and great mercy reached out to me. The hymn 'O Love, that wilt not let me go,...' kept going through my head, especially the verse: “O Joy that seekest me through pain, I cannot close my heart to Thee; I trace the rainbow through the rain, and feel the promise is not vain, that morn shall tearless be.”

The Lord used that hymn to turn my heart back to Him. He showed me that what I was experiencing was not true Christianity. It was a distortion. I have now come to classify a lot of "Christianity" as "Churchianity".

We cannot ever accuse God of rape, adultery, incest, embezzling funds, physical or sexual assault, greed, power hungry, abuse of power, or any other sinful act. God was not behind any of those sinful acts.

God began to teach me to have a real relationship with Him. I'm a sinner; I'll always be a sinner. However, I've learned to just be honest with God. "Lord, I just did it again. Your Word tells me it is sin, and I agree with You it is sin. I want to grow in inner strength so I have the ability to say 'No' to the temptation. Help me. Without You I can do nothing, but I can do all things through Christ who stregtheneth me."

We need to rise to the challenge to not let the sin of others divert us from our own relationship with Him. They must give an account to God for their actions. We must give an account to God for our actions.

Sin is all around us, because all humans are sinners - including Christians. Sometimes some of the greatest sins are committed by Christians, who are not maintaining their daily relationship with their Saviour. The elder that molested me, stated during the meeting with witnesses present: "Maybe my conscience is seared."

We must rise to the challenge to grow in our relationship with our Saviour, being honest with Him about all our doubts, fears, temptations, etc. He is able to help us.

Lord bless,

Flora

[Flora]

If I interject another two cents, does that make it four cents worth?

The thought I want to post here didn't really fit with the train of thought in the last posting. So I am making a separate posting.

About 15 years ago, my pastor brother and his wife, who live in Alberta, were traveling to Ontario for a family reunion. On the way they stopped at a restaurent. A goup at a nearby table joined hands and prayed before their meal. When my brother and his wife were leaving, they went over to the table to ask if they were fellow Christians. The answer they received shocked them and left them a bit shaken.

This was their answer:

"No we are not Christians. We are wicans, and we are praying to our gods that the church leadership in all the local churches will fall into sin, in particular, into sexual sin."

Let's not forget that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in heavenly places. We are engaged in a spiritual battle. However, we serve a risen Saviour, who is a mighty Victor!

Lord bless,

Flora

[Vandyyke]

Flora,

      I heard a story just like that but the setting was a little different. I'm a little skeptical. I have talked to a few wiccans. One in a new age bookstore in Whittier and another in a regular bookstore in La Habra. I asked them both lots of questions, "Do you try to cast spells on people?" Both times they just laughed, "No" "That would be stupid!"

   The story I heard before went  like this, "I was on a plane and I noticed the person sitting next to me was not eating lunch." "Politely I asked them if they would like some food?" and they replied, "No thank-you I am fasting!" "Oh, are you a Christian?" "No I am a Satanist." "I am fasting in order to ruin the Assemblies of God Churches."


  O.K. Flora I am not saying your story and the other one isn't true but can you or anyone else say the you personally have heard these things directly from a Wiccan? Satanist?  A few years ago I read, "The Satan Seller" by Mike Warnke. I was really freeked out by it!  Only to learn it was all fabricated!  I'm not saying these things don't happen but maybe we should give them a little more investigation.

  The best people I know are Christians but the worst people I know are Christians! Just because some people give Christ a bad name doesn't make me look at all Christians as bad. My hero is Jimmy Carter. To me he is a real Christian. He lives his life in step with scriptures. I appreciate your sincere concern for me.

  I hope this thread will help us identify these issues as something a lot bigger than the Assembly!  It really is everywhere!  I tell my students, "Don't ever go to the park alone!" "Don't ever go somewhere without an adult!" "Don't ever allow someone to make you feel uncomfortable!"

       Its just the world we live in!
       

[outdeep]

I would have to agree.  The Wiccans folks I have encountered (or read about in books such as Wicca's Charm) tend to be folks who are into reviving neo-pagan ancient earth spirituality.  They are attracted to this because they seek a spirituality void of structure and dogmas they had often found in churches.  They feel that neo-pagan religions offer more opportunity for women (being gods or god-like as opposed to not allowed to be pastors). 

Rather than wanting to cast spells upon Christians (which is more of a sterotype than reality), they would more likely accept Christians (at least the non-dogmatic kind) to join them as their lack of doctrine/structure tends towards pluralism and acceptance of any kind of spirituality one wants to bring to the table.  It is more of a no rules, explore the ancient practices that suit you approach to spirituality.  While Christianity's exclusive claims are a turn off to them and often a reason why some in their midst left the church for neo-paganism (though all religions including theirs have exclusive claims) I don't see folks of this world view actively uniting to bring down a specific religion unless they felt somehow needlessly threatened or provoked.

[Flora]

Vandyyke, Dave,

Fine. This thread is not about debating whether or not we can take statements made by wiccans as valid. This thread is about sin in church leadership and how that sin is dealt with or not dealt with.

Forgive me if I caused a diversion.

Flora